How God could fail to convey his message?

[mikekle]

What does “presenting Himself to us” mean to you? I would argue that He already has presented and is currently presenting Himself to us.

I can only suspect you mean something like “why doesn’t God appear in some kind of ornate display, something like a radiant being descending out of Heaven that everyone can see and then everyone will be convinced of His existence.” I will disagree with other posters that would argue that such an event would diminish or even dissolve free will, since each individual is still free to reject such an event. But I don’t think that God’s aim is to simply demand loyalty from inferior subjects in the way a human king might do, which is what the above scenario suggests. His aim is rather to convert minds and wills back to His mind and will, which is a perfection of their freedom not a tossing aside of it. That’s what “being in sin” is all about; the individual having her will misaligned from God’s and hence being far from Him.

You seem to be assuming that the goal of salvation is to have everyone be part of some nominal group of people that “gets saved.” Each individual is saved because they allow God’s grace to work salvation in them, not because of anything they do on their own. It’s easy to see why so many religions exist: we live in a fallen world where people seek their own wills above all else and their wills have led them in different directions.

You are right, if God did such a thing, of course, there would be a certain number of people crying hoax, fake, etc. but thats fine, I believe MANY others would re-align themselves with Gods will, and that would be a good thing, people would still retain their free will at all times during this event, they would be free to believe it or not.

Im going to pray for such an event, imagine if this happened in modern times…churches would be overflowing with people, it would be a huge revival of the faith.

 

[Bahman]

He is and He did.

He didn’t or he failed.

But he also gave people free will, which puts part of the responsibility on people, for our own good and spiritual development. It’s not that people are incapable of seeing, but that they made themselves blind by refusing to see.

Free will has nothing to do with being conceived about reality of God.

Look at how spiritually lazy you are. “I don’t want to do anything, I just want God to show himself to me already. If he won’t, then he FAILED.” Look how whiny and entitled you sound.

I am spiritually lazy. In fact I practiced many religions and discard them all. Look who is lazy now?

If we didn’t have to work on it, if we didn’t have to choose to *seek *Him, we wouldn’t have free will; we would just be automatons. He even gave angels free will, and some of them rebelled against Him anyway. And their failure was not one of sight, but of pride, same as you.

There could be a difference between God and truth hence you are blind seeker as long as you make such an assumption that what you believe is the truth.

 

[Bahman]

What does “presenting Himself to us” mean to you?

I don’t know. God should know many ways to convinced each individuals.

I would argue that He already has presented and is currently presenting Himself to us.

I did argue that he didn’t or he failed.

I can only suspect you mean something like “why doesn’t God appear in some kind of ornate display, something like a radiant being descending out of Heaven that everyone can see and then everyone will be convinced of His existence.”

Yeah. What is wrong with that?

I will disagree with other posters that would argue that such an event would diminish or even dissolve free will, since each individual is still free to reject such an event.

Thank you.

But I don’t think that God’s aim is to simply demand loyalty from inferior subjects in the way a human king might do, which is what the above scenario suggests.

What is wrong with that? In fact Jesus did so: The way is my way.

His aim is rather to convert minds and wills back to His mind and will, which is a perfection of their freedom not a tossing aside of it.

How this goal could be achieved when people are so scattered about what God is? This sounds nonsense to me. Please pay attention to previous comment too.

That’s what “being in sin” is all about; the individual having her will misaligned from God’s and hence being far from Him.

Which is God’s failure as long as there are many religions.

You seem to be assuming that the goal of salvation is to have everyone be part of some nominal group of people that “gets saved.” Each individual is saved because they allow God’s grace to work salvation in them, not because of anything they do on their own. It’s easy to see why so many religions exist: we live in a fallen world where people seek their own wills above all else and their wills have led them in different directions.

So different religions are human made? How you could be so sure about your own religion? You are in the same mental state as others, namely your mind is locked on what God is!

 

[abucs]

Hello Bahman,

you seem to equate the possibility of God conveying a message with everyone having to follow one particular religion based on that message.

You argue that if there are many religions then this is a failure of God’s message and then argue a failure of God means all religions are man-made.

I don’t believe this thinking is logically or theologically correct, but let us assume that your logic is correct.

Consider this:

Two thousand years ago there were a handful of Christians and today 1/3 of the planet is Christian.

If you could travel in time another 4000 years in the future and 100% of the planet was Christian would you then admit that you made a mistake way back in 2015 and that God’s message was successful in its conveyance and therefore Christianity is true?

 

[Bahman]

Hello Bahman,

you seem to equate the possibility of God conveying a message with everyone having to follow one particular religion based on that message.

You argue that if there are many religions then this is a failure of God’s message and then argue a failure of God means all religions are man-made.

I don’t believe this thinking is logically or theologically correct, but let us assume that your logic is correct.

Consider this:

Two thousand years ago there were a handful of Christians and today 1/3 of the planet is Christian.

If you could travel in time another 4000 years in the future and 100% of the planet was Christian would you then admit that you made a mistake way back in 2015 and that God’s message was successful in its conveyance and therefore Christianity is true?

Any religion has started with the few follower then it has been expanded. By the way there is nothing wrong with my logic. It is very simple and straightforward.

 

[abucs]

Hello Bahman,

let me ask the hypothetical question a second time.

If you could travel in time another 4000 years in the future and 100% of the planet was Christian would you then admit that you made a mistake way back in 2015 and that God’s message was successful in its conveyance and therefore Christianity is true?

What is your answer?

 

[Bahman]

Hello Bahman,

let me ask the hypothetical question a second time.

If you could travel in time another 4000 years in the future and 100% of the planet was Christian would you then admit that you made a mistake way back in 2015 and that God’s message was successful in its conveyance and therefore Christianity is true?

What is your answer?

No. Because what people believe is not a measure of truth. Why? Let me ask you an hypothetical question: What if Christianity is work of Satan? Why? Because Christianity has already been such a failure: look at Crusade and what Christian did in medieval time: burning people in fire, etc. Love your enemy. such a nonsense.

 

[abucs]

No. Because what people believe is not a measure of truth.

So logically, that then means that the lack of belief in Christianity is not a valid measure of the truth of Christianity.

Would you agree?

 

[Bahman]

So logically, that then means that the lack of belief in Christianity is not a valid measure of the truth of Christianity.

Would you agree?

Yes. But this only means that Christianity might be true as other religions might be true.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Jesus did so: The way is my way. . .

Jesus is the Way.
An intellectual understanding is useless in itself.
What is required is a complete transformation of oneself.
We view the world through what we have accepted as truth.
To grow in truth, one must open one’s mind and heart.
The certainty is to be found in faith, in the giving of over of one’s mind to God.
it is then that the Holy Spirit can fill one with knowledge, wisdom and understanding.
A quest for truth on one’s own terms, like trying to understand it all in terms of arithmetic, will only lead to confusion.
The search for 100% certainty in one’s own mind cannot but lead to a cry for mercy.
It is an example of what has led us here, trying to be gods without God.
We become our true selves in becoming Christ-like.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Bahman,

Your question is a good one, and I think I have one possible solution. God has not failed to convey his message, we have failed to listen to it because of the many distractions and vanities of human life. He does not “force” us to listen because he desires our free choice to obey. God gives each person knowledge of right and wrong, and we intuit his laws, or can learn of them from the Torah. Each of us has a more or less deep understanding of these laws. We know not to lie, not to murder, not to steal, to live in an ordered society, not to engage in disordered sexual relations, not to be cruel to animals, not to worship false gods, etc. (In fact, I think the recent explosion of atheism is potentially a step in the right direction. People are rejecting false gods at an ever increasing pace, making room for a return to the worship of the true God).

God expects us to do what is right, and we all know it. Superstitious religions, the excessive desire for wealth and power, and many other things distract us from this inner knowledge of God’s message, but the potential for each of us to listen to it always remains. God does not expect us to “convert” to a religion to please him, but rather we must become fully alive and ourselves by following his laws. If we have access to the Torah and follow it because we desire to please God, then we can begin to live as “righteous gentiles.” God has created each of us to know him, do what is right, and be good human beings, no matter when, to whom, or where we’re born.

 

[Vico]

This is a question that should come to mind of any religious person: How God could fail to convey his message? There are two scenarios available: 1) God didn’t intended to convey any message and all religions are work of people. This is true since there are many religions around the world. 2) God failed. This is true because there are many religions around the world again.

Your thought.

Catechism of the Catholic Church1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47

1777 Moral conscience,48 present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil.49 It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

47 Gaudium et Spes 16.
48 Cf. Rom 2:14-16.
49 Cf. Rom 1:32.

 

[balto]

You are right, if God did such a thing, of course, there would be a certain number of people crying hoax, fake, etc. but thats fine, I believe MANY others would re-align themselves with Gods will, and that would be a good thing, people would still retain their free will at all times during this event, they would be free to believe it or not.

Im going to pray for such an event, imagine if this happened in modern times…churches would be overflowing with people, it would be a huge revival of the faith.

Yes, I bet most people would be in church the next day after such an event. But I don’t see how there would really be any substantial difference from the day before, except that most people suddenly acknowledge God’s existence (which is already accessible to natural reason devoid of supernatural faith). They might be going to church but that doesn’t mean they have an interior conversion to Christ. They probably just want to look good because the king’s in town and they’ll get in trouble if they’re not on their best behavior, but they’re still selfishly seeking their own will above all else.

 

[balto]

I don’t know. God should know many ways to convinced each individuals.

Yes but the word “convince” suggests a response on the part of the one being convinced. I think you have “coercion” rather than “conversion” in mind here.

I did argue that he didn’t or he failed.

He failed to do what? He created rational beings who freely desire universal goodness, He offers salvation to all and everyone who freely accepts it is joined to Him in Heaven. The people who don’t return to Him said no and meant it, probably because the prospect of renouncing their wills so God can direct them to His is something they just never want to do. Where is the difficulty here?

Yeah. What is wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with it. But our ultimate beatitude is not simply to know that God exists, so the appropriateness of such a divine act would have to be viewed in light of the actual ultimate end which is the sinner’s reunion with God in mind and heart.

What is wrong with that? In fact Jesus did so: The way is my way.

His way is the only way. How else are you going to get back to God if not by God Himself? You seem to be confusing salvation with holding to a set of theological doctrines and belonging to a group. The visible Church is the Catholic Church but that doesn’t mean that God cannot work salvation in people outside the visible Church. He can and does. Such people have an implicit desire for Christ, who is the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world.

How this goal could be achieved when people are so scattered about what God is? This sounds nonsense to me. Please pay attention to previous comment too.

If salvation is something we effect, then it is impossible. Fortunately the Catholic Church doesn’t hold that salvation is something we do, it is something God does and the sinner receives.

So different religions are human made? How you could be so sure about your own religion? You are in the same mental state as others, namely your mind is locked on what God is!

All but Catholicism are man-made yes. How could I be so sure? By myself I can’t be. My conception of Catholicism is not God’s conception of it, which is the perfection of it. The person who ultimately acknowledges the Catholic Church is the true church is the one who has allowed God to lead them, and believes what God has revealed to them which enables their reason to see how Catholicism really is the religion founded by God. This journey, by the way, is not over when the person converts to Catholicism but when they get to Heaven. Joining the Catholic Church is usually one of the first steps on a long road.

 

[tonyrey]

God has **not **failed to convey his message. The teaching of Jesus is the basis of the UNDHR and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity accepted by civilised people throughout the world.

 

[abucs]

Originally Posted by abucs View Post
So logically, that then means that the lack of belief in Christianity is not a valid measure of the truth of Christianity.

Would you agree?

Yes. But this only means that Christianity might be true as other religions might be true.

So that means that you cannot say Christianity or any other religion is false because of any measure of unbelief of that religion.

So that means you cannot say that all religions are made up by man because people believe in different things.

So that negates one side of your original argument.

The other is that God must have failed to convey his message.

I have asked previously what you thought God’s intention is with His message and instead of answering you started talking about Divine Justice. I have addressed Divine Justice in your other thread.

In order to judge whether God is a failure we have to agree on what God’s intention is otherwise we cannot judge whether it is a failure or not and your original argument then lacks an important definition.
.

If we can’t agree on this then your argument cannot proceed. To begin to agree, you have to first define what you think God’s intention is.

I have already asked you if in the future 100% of the planet becoming Christian would make God’s message (in your eyes) a success and you didn’t say yes.

So what is God’s intention and how do you define success?

 

[adrift]

This is a question that should come to mind of any religious person: How God could fail to convey his message? There are two scenarios available: 1) God didn’t intended to convey any message and all religions are work of people. This is true since there are many religions around the world. 2) God failed. This is true because there are many religions around the world again.

Your thought.

The question that comes to my mind after reading this is What message? Who says God failed? How is that determination made? What criteria is used?
It seems to me that you have to be God to determine any failure. We cannot see with our puny minds what fails and doesn’t fail. I am sure that there were those who thought the prophecy to Simeon had failed but we can now see it didn’t.

 

[Bahman]

Jesus is the Way.
An intellectual understanding is useless in itself.
What is required is a complete transformation of oneself.
We view the world through what we have accepted as truth.
To grow in truth, one must open one’s mind and heart.
The certainty is to be found in faith, in the giving of over of one’s mind to God.
it is then that the Holy Spirit can fill one with knowledge, wisdom and understanding.
A quest for truth on one’s own terms, like trying to understand it all in terms of arithmetic, will only lead to confusion.
The search for 100% certainty in one’s own mind cannot but lead to a cry for mercy.
It is an example of what has led us here, trying to be gods without God.
We become our true selves in becoming Christ-like.

Look my friend. Your words doesn’t help much in this discussion. It is your mere belief, namely a state of mind that something is true. It doesn’t have any value unless you critically challenge it because other people have different religions being in the same state of mind as you are.

 

[Bahman]

Yes, I bet most people would be in church the next day after such an event. But I don’t see how there would really be any substantial difference from the day before, except that most people suddenly acknowledge God’s existence (which is already accessible to natural reason devoid of supernatural faith). They might be going to church but that doesn’t mean they have an interior conversion to Christ. They probably just want to look good because the king’s in town and they’ll get in trouble if they’re not on their best behavior, but they’re still selfishly seeking their own will above all else.

Well that is not acceptable from a God who is omnipotent and omniscient. He should know a way to heart of each individual.

 

[Bahman]

Yes but the word “convince” suggests a response on the part of the one being convinced. I think you have “coercion” rather than “conversion” in mind here.

Not if God is love. He could find his way into our hearts. Problem solved.

He failed to do what? He created rational beings who freely desire universal goodness.

That is a wrong assertion. Look at human history to see that we are being who freely desire universal goodness. Christianity in its part was a failure. Look at Crusade and all Christian did in medieval time!

He offers salvation to all and everyone who freely accepts it is joined to Him in Heaven. The people who don’t return to Him said no and meant it, probably because the prospect of renouncing their wills so God can direct them to His is something they just never want to do. Where is the difficulty here?

The difficulty: If God is infinite then there should exist infinite ways to join God. Hence each individual has the liberty to seek God in his/her on way. Moreover, where is the liberty when you are sure that your way is doom when you don’t accept the way of Christianity. Aren’t we created free?

Nothing is wrong with it. But our ultimate beatitude is not simply to know that God exists, so the appropriateness of such a divine act would have to be viewed in light of the actual ultimate end which is the sinner’s reunion with God in mind and heart.

This is beautiful but full of unjustified conceptions. First, we are not sinner. Second, what is pleasing to mind and heart might not be true.

His way is the only way. How else are you going to get back to God if not by God Himself? You seem to be confusing salvation with holding to a set of theological doctrines and belonging to a group. The visible Church is the Catholic Church but that doesn’t mean that God cannot work salvation in people outside the visible Church. He can and does. Such people have an implicit desire for Christ, who is the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world.

Your belief is only a state of mind which has no value unless critically judged. Have you ever practiced another religion? Why not? If you try you find yourself in the same state of mind with different conceptions!

If salvation is something we effect, then it is impossible. Fortunately the Catholic Church doesn’t hold that salvation is something we do, it is something God does and the sinner receives.

Please read previous comment.

All but Catholicism are man-made yes. How could I be so sure? By myself I can’t be. My conception of Catholicism is not God’s conception of it, which is the perfection of it. The person who ultimately acknowledges the Catholic Church is the true church is the one who has allowed God to lead them, and believes what God has revealed to them which enables their reason to see how Catholicism really is the religion founded by God. This journey, by the way, is not over when the person converts to Catholicism but when they get to Heaven. Joining the Catholic Church is usually one of the first steps on a long road.

Please read previous comment.