How God could fail to convey his message?

[Secant]

You apparently didn’t pay attention to my argument. It is very simple: There are many religions and there is one God hence he either didn’t convey any message and all religions are human made or he failed to convey his message. There is no another option.

Actually I understood it well and answered it, but I’ll try again, with a little less politically correct flowery language. There is third option, the true option. There is one true religion where we work to teach his message every day. There are many other religions because someone thought that our message is too hard and wanted an easy way. These religions come about due to human frailty and demonic temptation,as well as the free will that allows us to succumb to temptation and frailty, not because of an insufficient message on God’s part. Remember that love without choice is not love. We need free will, the ability to fail, to truly succeed. Just because people fail does not mean God did.

 

[abucs]

This is a question that should come to mind of any religious person: How God could fail to convey his message? There are two scenarios available: 1) God didn’t intended to convey any message and all religions are work of people. This is true since there are many religions around the world. 2) God failed. This is true because there are many religions around the world again.

Your thought.

Hello Bahman,

if we are going to judge the success or failure of God’s plans we first have to perceive the desired outcome of God.

What do you think is the desired outcome which God wishes?

and secondly, to what degree does God respect human free will to agree and oppose those plans?

 

[Bahman]

I thought I did.

No you didn’t.

People have different beliefs because they have different intellectual abilities, different education, societal backgrounds, life experiences and different graces bestowed upon them by the Holy Spirit.

I am asking why people have different believes. People of course are different in all attributes you mentioned but why people have different believes? Have you ever experienced Holy Spirit?

1 God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Saviour. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life.

The quote from CCC doesn’t help. I want your argument. Again why all people don’t believe Christianity? He could simply present himself to all individuals and resolve the problem. Instead he prefers to stay in darkness and leave people confused.

2 So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4 Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."5

Jesus failed to convince people. Didn’t he? There are people who has never heard about Christianity or don’t take it seriously.

3 Those who with God’s help have welcomed Christ’s call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ’s faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer.6
I am assuming that you are listening for your own answer, rather than God’s, and that is why you do not hear the truth.

What treasure? To call people for love? People know what love is.

There is a war going on between the truth and the forces of sin and ignorance. We chose the lies of Satan promising us to be gods, without God. This is the consequence.

Why God leave Satan alive when he knows the consequences?

 

[Bahman]

:yawn: Just because some people can’t see it doesn’t mean there aren’t things to be seen.

Exactly for that reason (bold part) God failed. Isn’t God able to present himself to everybody so people can see?

 

[Bahman]

Why does the sole responsibility for reception of the message placed on the sender?

There are two options: 1) Go intended to convince everybody that he exist, 2) God didn’t intended to do so. In first case God failed. Different religions are created by people in the second case. How people could be so sure in the second case that their own religion is the right one?

What role is required of the receiver?

Nothing but only to receive a simple message: I am God.

 

[Bahman]

Actually I understood it well and answered it, but I’ll try again, with a little less politically correct flowery language. There is third option, the true option. There is one true religion where we work to teach his message every day.

And the true religion is yours!?

There are many other religions because someone thought that our message is too hard and wanted an easy way.

This is not a good argument. People could believe that there is a God but do whatever they wish because your way is hard. My question is that why people don’t believe that there is one God, one true religion?

These religions come about due to human frailty and demonic temptation,as well as the free will that allows us to succumb to temptation and frailty, not because of an insufficient message on God’s part.

This is not a good argument. My point is that why God failed to make people to believe that there is one God? People of course free to do things based on their free will even when they believe that there is one God. There is no tension between free will and believing in simple word.

Remember that love without choice is not love. We need free will, the ability to fail, to truly succeed. Just because people fail does not mean God did.

Can you choose to hate people? Likewise you cannot choose to love. We don’t have control on our emotions.

 

[Bahman]

Hello Bahman,

Hello.

if we are going to judge the success or failure of God’s plans we first have to perceive the desired outcome of God.

It is not about God’s desire. It is about divine justice. Jesus clearly mentioned that the way is his way which this is fundamental point in all religions otherwise religion become meaningless. You either accept or reject a religion with the consequence of going to heaven or hell.

What do you think is the desired outcome which God wishes?

It is about divine justice and what we wish and choose and not about what God wishes.

and secondly, to what degree does God respect human free will to agree and oppose those plans?

There is no tension between free will and believing. We believe when we are convinced. We cannot choose not to believe when we are convinced.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

You are kidding. Aren’t you? Otherwise you don’t know the definition of Christian God.

Was it not you who was asking after religions plural? Would such not then suggest a god beyond specifically that of Christianity?

 

[JerryZ]

Exactly for that reason (bold part) God failed. Isn’t God able to present himself to everybody so people can see?

This assertion from you presupposes that GOD would dismiss our free will and force Himself onto us.

Which of course HE will not.

…

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Would such not then suggest a god beyond specifically that of Christianity?

First off, lose the habit of not capitalizing the G in God.
You are speaking of someone, something if that is where your understanding is, that is far, far greater than anything you can begin to imagine, however creative your imagination may be.

If you try to understand what each religion teaches, the hope would be that you will connect with that transcendental Truth that lies at the Heart of all that is.
Deepening your relationship with that Truth, if you maintained contact with Christianity, you would find that it does a better job at getting you where we are all destined.
Given what seems to me your inclination to think things out, I don’t foresee that you would achieve Nirvana, through Buddhism or Hinduism. Your thoughts are the golden bars on the cage that entraps the soul. At any rate, very few can pass through that door.
You will go to heaven as a follower of Christ.

 

[Jelrak_TB]

First off, lose the habit of not capitalizing the G in God.
You are speaking of someone, something if that is where your understanding is, that is far, far greater than anything you can begin to imagine, however creative your imagination may be.

If you try to understand what each religion teaches, the hope would be that you will connect with that transcendental Truth that lies at the Heart of all that is.
Deepening your relationship with that Truth, if you maintained contact with Christianity, you would find that it does a better job at getting you where we are all destined.
Given what seems to me your inclination to think things out, I don’t foresee that you would achieve Nirvana, through Buddhism or Hinduism. Your thoughts are the golden bars on the cage that entraps the soul. At any rate, very few can pass through that door.
You will go to heaven as a follower of Christ.

I appreciate the sensitivity of this topic and do not wish to convey a lack of respect. Kindly note only that in speaking of a god I am typically merely differentiating between the God as recognized by the majority of members of this forum. It was attempted as a sign of respect and not the reverse. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Thank you for the rest of your kind intentions…

Regards,

Jelrak TB

 

[Aloysium]

Sorry for the intrusion, but the names of God in every culture and religion are capitalized:
Aten - ancient Egypt (the one “true” Supreme Being and Creator of the Universe)
YHWH, Elohim, Adonai - Judaism
Allah - Islam
Brahman, Atman, Krishna, Vishnu, etc - Hinduism
Baha - Bahá’í
Waheguru - Sikhism
Ahura Mazda - Zoroastrianism
Dharmakāya - this is the exception in that it is not always capitalized, being the name given to the unmanifested, inconceivable aspect of Buddha, out of which each arises and into which they return.
Seems more than reasonable to me to go for the Truth, than to juggle opinions or focus on god images and mythologies, separated from the Reality they are intended to describe. That is why I brought up the issue.

 

[Bahman]

This assertion from you presupposes that GOD would dismiss our free will and force Himself onto us.

Which of course HE will not.

…

You are saying that God would dismiss our free will if he presents himself to us?

 

[seagal]

You are saying that God would dismiss our free will if he presents himself to us?

If God gave us absolute proof that he exists then how could anyone doubt? And where is the free will in that? As philosopher Peter Kreeft once said, “God gives us just enough evidence so that those who want him can have him.”

Jesus did come and presented himself as the Son of God. Some people believed him, others didn’t.

Your argument is based on your assumption that God is finished conveying his message. Why would you assume that? As long as humans inhabit the earth, God’s message will continue.

In Matthew 13 Jesus told the parable of the sower. (I’m not going to quote the whole thing here, look it up.) The parable is about spreading the message of the Kingdom. This is Jesus’ explanation of his parable:

Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.

This passage shows that God is well aware that not everyone will hear, not everyone who hears will understand, not everyone who understands will believe. And even some of those who believe initially will be lose interest. But, as I mentioned before, God’s not finished yet.

Bahman, I don’t know if you ask these questions because you’re genuinely wanting answers or if you just like to argue. If the former, I highly recommend reading some of the great Catholic theologians (like Peter Kreeft for one). They can give you far stronger answers than you’ll get on these forums.

 

[Bahman]

If God gave us absolute proof that he exists then how could anyone doubt?

Why we should live in doubt? How is responsible for our wrong actions if our wrong actions is because of doubt?

And where is the free will in that?

There is no tension between free will and belief unless we want to perform an action. We simply believe when we are convinced.

As philosopher Peter Kreeft once said, “God gives us just enough evidence so that those who want him can have him.”

You are contradicting yourself here. If God give enough evidence then we could not have any doubt.

Jesus did come and presented himself as the Son of God. Some people believed him, others didn’t.

So he simply failed. How God couldn’t convinced people? He is omnipotent and omniscient.

Your argument is based on your assumption that God is finished conveying his message. Why would you assume that? As long as humans inhabit the earth, God’s message will continue.

How? Why people are so scattered and confused about what is the truth, true religion, etc? Why people should be kept in such a situation?

This passage shows that God is well aware that not everyone will hear, not everyone who hears will understand, not everyone who understands will believe. And even some of those who believe initially will be lose interest. But, as I mentioned before, God’s not finished yet.

So omnipotent and omniscient God failed to convey his message. If God is love, omnipotent and omniscient then he could easily find a solution to convince each individual. Couldn’t him? Perhaps he didn’t want to! We then are not responsible for our wrong actions if we are not convinced.

 

[Mike_Dye]

In reply to the original question I suggest to try this experiment… Try to convince a liberal Catholic that the political party that they support, you know, the one that has abortion as a plank in their party platform, that they should consider that fact when they vote. I promise that you will hear every excuse under the sun to explain away the fact that they indirectly support the killing of innocent children in the womb. Now explain why you think God would have any more luck delivering His message.

 

[mikekle]

I would say, since there are many different interpretations of the bible (Gods word), its safe to say, in this aspect, God has sort of failed to convey the true message, the bible is not an easy read, its very difficult to determine what is literal, metaphorical, symbolic, its easy to take things the wrong way. Remember it is humans who have translated the bible into forms we can read today, the misinterpretation of just one single word could have HUGE implications.

I can see God sitting in heaven, hand up to his forehead, shaking his head that his human creations have misunderstood the bible to such a degree, I mean, look at all the radical groups, they TRULY believe they have interpreted the bible correctly.

 

[esmero]

Exactly for that reason (bold part) God failed. Isn’t God able to present himself to everybody so people can see?

He is and He did.

But he also gave people free will, which puts part of the responsibility on people, for our own good and spiritual development. It’s not that people are incapable of seeing, but that they made themselves blind by refusing to see.

Look at how spiritually lazy you are. “I don’t want to do anything, I just want God to show himself to me already. If he won’t, then he FAILED.” Look how whiny and entitled you sound.

If we didn’t have to work on it, if we didn’t have to choose to *seek *Him, we wouldn’t have free will; we would just be automatons. He even gave angels free will, and some of them rebelled against Him anyway. And their failure was not one of sight, but of pride, same as you.

Do you know a better way to build a bridge? Do you know a better way to farm the earth for food? Do you know a better way to form stars? How do you presume to know a better way for the Universe to work? How do you presume to know how a mind infinitely greater than yours should operate?

 

[arthra]

Sorry for the intrusion, but the names of God in every culture and religion are capitalized:
Aten - ancient Egypt (the one “true” Supreme Being and Creator of the Universe)
YHWH, Elohim, Adonai - Judaism
Allah - Islam
Brahman, Atman, Krishna, Vishnu, etc - Hinduism
Baha - Bahá’í
Waheguru - Sikhism
Ahura Mazda - Zoroastrianism
Dharmakāya - this is the exception in that it is not always capitalized, being the name given to the unmanifested, inconceivable aspect of Buddha, out of which each arises and into which they return.
Seems more than reasonable to me to go for the Truth, than to juggle opinions or focus on god images and mythologies, separated from the Reality they are intended to describe. That is why I brought up the issue.

Just a note to correct the above… “Allah” is the name of God used in the Baha’i Faith… “Baha” means splendour or glory…hence the title “Baha’u’llah” is the Gory of God.

 

[balto]

You are saying that God would dismiss our free will if he presents himself to us?

What does “presenting Himself to us” mean to you? I would argue that He already has presented and is currently presenting Himself to us.

I can only suspect you mean something like “why doesn’t God appear in some kind of ornate display, something like a radiant being descending out of Heaven that everyone can see and then everyone will be convinced of His existence.” I will disagree with other posters that would argue that such an event would diminish or even dissolve free will, since each individual is still free to reject such an event. But I don’t think that God’s aim is to simply demand loyalty from inferior subjects in the way a human king might do, which is what the above scenario suggests. His aim is rather to convert minds and wills back to His mind and will, which is a perfection of their freedom not a tossing aside of it. That’s what “being in sin” is all about; the individual having her will misaligned from God’s and hence being far from Him.

You seem to be assuming that the goal of salvation is to have everyone be part of some nominal group of people that “gets saved.” Each individual is saved because they allow God’s grace to work salvation in them, not because of anything they do on their own. It’s easy to see why so many religions exist: we live in a fallen world where people seek their own wills above all else and their wills have led them in different directions.