How God could fail to convey his message?

[Bahman]

God has **not **failed to convey his message. The teaching of Jesus is the basis of the UNDHR and the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity accepted by civilised people throughout the world.

What liberty when he clearly said that the way is his way.

 

[Bahman]

Bahman,

Your question is a good one, and I think I have one possible solution. God has not failed to convey his message, we have failed to listen to it because of the many distractions and vanities of human life. He does not “force” us to listen because he desires our free choice to obey. God gives each person knowledge of right and wrong, and we intuit his laws, or can learn of them from the Torah. Each of us has a more or less deep understanding of these laws. We know not to lie, not to murder, not to steal, to live in an ordered society, not to engage in disordered sexual relations, not to be cruel to animals, not to worship false gods, etc. (In fact, I think the recent explosion of atheism is potentially a step in the right direction. People are rejecting false gods at an ever increasing pace, making room for a return to the worship of the true God).

God expects us to do what is right, and we all know it. Superstitious religions, the excessive desire for wealth and power, and many other things distract us from this inner knowledge of God’s message, but the potential for each of us to listen to it always remains. God does not expect us to “convert” to a religion to please him, but rather we must become fully alive and ourselves by following his laws. If we have access to the Torah and follow it because we desire to please God, then we can begin to live as “righteous gentiles.” God has created each of us to know him, do what is right, and be good human beings, no matter when, to whom, or where we’re born.

You are missing my main point. Again, why there should be too many religion if there is one God?

 

[Bahman]

So that means that you cannot say Christianity or any other religion is false because of any measure of unbelief of that religion.

This only means that we are in the state of ignorance when we cannot judge which religion is false or true. The only solution for this situation is to practice other religions. You realize that all religion are set of concepts for direction individuals and the belief is just a state of mind which doesn’t have any value unless it can guide you toward truth and this is not possible without critical thinking.

So that means you cannot say that all religions are made up by man because people believe in different things.

Please read the previous comment.

So that negates one side of your original argument.

Please read the first comment.

I have asked previously what you thought God’s intention is with His message and instead of answering you started talking about Divine Justice. I have addressed Divine Justice in your other thread.

God’s intention: To seek the truth individually with critical thinking instead of accepting the truth! What we could do as intellectual beings when the truth is revealed?

In order to judge whether God is a failure we have to agree on what God’s intention is otherwise we cannot judge whether it is a failure or not and your original argument then lacks an important definition.

Your concept of God is false because of previous comment.
.

If we can’t agree on this then your argument cannot proceed. To begin to agree, you have to first define what you think God’s intention is.

We have to agree on the definition God first and if there is any God at all. What would be the God’s intention if there is any: To leave us in state of ignorance and let us to search the truth. The current state of humanity clearly shows that we are in the state of ignorance which this support my idea.

I have already asked you if in the future 100% of the planet becoming Christian would make God’s message (in your eyes) a success and you didn’t say yes.

I already answered that. The number of people who have specific belief is not a measure of truth since any specific belief could be work of Satan! How you could be so sure?

So what is God’s intention and how do you define success?

Success is when we achieve in something, in this case, when we gain something in our own separate spiritual way. The truth has infinite folds.

 

[Aloysium]

If one is interested in a Christian response to the OP, Romans 9 might help.
it’s rather long for a post, and easily found on the Internet.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

You are missing my main point. Again, why there should be too many religion if there is one God?

We invent idols for ourselves because the true God is too much for us. We want to “harness” the divine via magic, sacraments, rites, spells, voodoo, etc. We desire an image to grab onto because images are all we know. This is a failing on our part, however. We could do otherwise. Just as many people have an excessive desire for sex and can overcome it by discipline and maturity, some people also have an excessive religious impulse which can be overcome by meditation upon the Torah and interior examination of conscience. I’m not sure what the problem is here. Are you wondering how God could allow most of humanity to make mistakes and give in to religious excess? He has to allow it, or else we would have no alternative and therefore would not be free.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Romans 9 . . .

BTW - The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops’ site has some excellent reflections on it. I would suggest picking that version from the search results for a Catholic interpretation.

 

[abucs]

Bahman,

I don’t think you are following my discussion. Whether this is intentional or not I leave with you.

I consider your argument poorly thought out and not worth discussing further.

Good luck to you in the future.

 

[adrift]

That is a wrong assertion. Look at human history to see that we are being who freely desire universal goodness. Christianity in its part was a failure. Look at Crusade and all Christian did in medieval time!

.

Are you saying that all religions fail? Christianity is not a failure. You bring up the Crusades like everyone should know that they were wrong. Some were but some were not. The idea that they were wrong came from their enemy. I believe you can point out evil in any religion. Just look at the beheadings of Christians today not hundreds of years ago. You name what you call failures but you ignore all the good that has been brought.

First, we are not sinner

Really? another error of yours.

 

[esmero]

He didn’t or he failed.

According to you, Mr. …who?

Free will has nothing to do with being conceived about reality of God.

Your ignorance becomes clearer with each post.

I am spiritually lazy. In fact I practiced many religions and discard them all. Look who is lazy now?

So you can’t stick to anything and you think that’s a virtue?

There could be a difference between God and truth hence you are blind seeker as long as you make such an assumption that what you believe is the truth.

The fact that you think “There could be a difference between God and truth” means you don’t understand the nature of neither God nor Truth.

Jesus said:

“Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. …] He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

The fact that you’re adept to “faith-shopping” and take time out of your day to create an account on a Catholic forum, not to listen and learn, but to be an active adversary to other people, is more than enough evidence that you cannot accept God and Truth, because you have shielded yourself from it with your own pride.

He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.

PS: “Satan” comes from the Hebrew word from adversary.

 

[balto]

Not if God is love. He could find his way into our hearts. Problem solved.

The rational agent has to reciprocate the action or it isn’t love. What you’re saying is “if God is so omnipotent and omniscient, can’t He make us freely love Him without making us really free?” This is to be categorized along with “why can’t God make square circles?”

That is a wrong assertion. Look at human history to see that we are being who freely desire universal goodness. Christianity in its part was a failure. Look at Crusade and all Christian did in medieval time!

Christianity is not principally a moralism, it is a relationship with the incarnate God. Orthodox Christians don’t believe that Christ principally came here to make us all behave ourselves, although the one who does have an objective relationship with Christ will be loving. The fact that many self-proclaimed Christians have engaged in barbarisms does not address the issue of the OP.

The difficulty: If God is infinite then there should exist infinite ways to join God. Hence each individual has the liberty to seek God in his/her on way. Moreover, where is the liberty when you are sure that your way is doom when you don’t accept the way of Christianity. Aren’t we created free?

Seeking God in my way is the problem. That’s what being fallen is all about. My way, my life, my rules. The saint is the one who really knows and believes it is about God’s way, God’s life, and God’s rules and trusts God to align their will to that, since they can’t do it alone. This is probably what St. Paul means when he says that “it is no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me.” Being free doesn’t mean being indeterminate among many options. That is being unfree. Being free means fully perfecting your nature and having no hindrances to doing so.

This is beautiful but full of unjustified conceptions. First, we are not sinner. Second, what is pleasing to mind and heart might not be true.

Yes we are all sinners. It’s “my way” with everyone. That’s what sin is. It’s not essentially about breaking the rules, although it includes that. Sin is “my will be done” which separates us from God.

Your belief is only a state of mind which has no value unless critically judged. Have you ever practiced another religion? Why not? If you try you find yourself in the same state of mind with different conceptions!

Why would I practice another religion when I know that they are untrue at least in part. It would be dishonest for me to do that.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

The rational agent has to reciprocate the action or it isn’t love. What you’re saying is “if God is so omnipotent and omniscient, can’t He make us freely love Him without making us really free?” This is to be categorized along with “why can’t God make square circles?”

You are mistaken. It asks: “if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then why does he not express his love in a way that we can recognize?”. Once we would see his “love” for us, THEN we would be in the position to reciprocate it - FREELY, if we want to.

Seeking God in my way is the problem.

Why would it be? We are not identical, we are all somewhat different. A good teacher gives an explanation to each student according to THEIR level of understanding. The more advanced ones will need a less detailed explanation, the less advanced ones will need a more detailed one. There is nothing wrong or irrational to expect a “personalized” approach. The “one size fits all” is simply an incorrect approach… and an omniscient God should be aware of this.

Yes we are all sinners. It’s “my way” with everyone.

Also incorrect. If “my way” happens to coincide with “God’s way”, then there is no problem. The problem is that God is notoriously silent and does not express his “requirements” in a clear and unambiguous fashion. Of course you might say that YOU are the mouthpiece for God, and whatever YOU say is what God would say, if he were so inclined… but I somehow doubt that. Or you might say that God relegated that role to the church, but that is also very weak. Why would the almighty creator need to relegate this role to a human concoction composed of fallible human beings? He would be more than able to scribble his demands onto each human “heart”, so we would be aware of it. And THEN we would be in the position to follow these demands or reject them.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . “if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then why does he not express his love in a way that we can recognize?”. Once we would see his “love” for us, THEN we would be in the position to reciprocate it - FREELY, if we want to.

I would say that if He has not revealed Himself to you, but He sends you here, it would be to demonstrate His mercy to those to whom He has blessed with Divine knowledge. Sorry Dude, but it’s been a very difficult path that has led me here. From other posts, I got the impression, you are looking for an easy way through this life.

. . . A good teacher gives an explanation to each student according to THEIR level of understanding. The more advanced ones will need a less detailed explanation, the less advanced ones will need a more detailed one. There is nothing wrong or irrational to expect a “personalized” approach. The “one size fits all” is simply an incorrect approach… and an omniscient God should be aware of this. . . .

Obviously, you did not read Romans 9 as I recommended. Let me quote versus 20 to 22:

But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker, “Why have you created me so?”
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

You are not at the same level as God. Perhaps He endures your insolence, lack of faith and sinfulness with much patience.

. . . God is notoriously silent and does not express his “requirements” in a clear and unambiguous fashion. . .

Brace yourself, it is really simple. I wonder how you could have gotten to this point without having come across.

Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Mark 12:28-31 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

 

[ericc]

This is a question that should come to mind of any religious person: How God could fail to convey his message?

We shouldn’t assume he didn’t convey his message because there are some who heard and obeyed. We shouldn’t assume he failed because there are success stories. It is a given that there will be failures.

There are two scenarios available: 1) God didn’t intended to convey any message and all religions are work of people. This is true since there are many religions around the world. 2) God failed. This is true because there are many religions around the world again.

At the risk of repeating what others have commented:

1. He conveyed his message.
   a) hearers heard him
   (i) understood him but didn’t listen to him i.e. disobedient or refusal to believe i.e. evil doers/atheists
   (ii) misunderstood his message and reacted with confusion , therefore different religions
   (iii) heard him, understood him and acted accordingly, the Church
   (iv) heard him, understood him and acted accordingly but died before spreading his message successfully. i.e. missionaries that died in hostile environments.
   (v) the true message got distorted over time, intentionally or unintentionally, therefore, various denominations

b) hearer’s didn’t hear him. Not possible unless God is talking to an empty hall.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

I would say that if He has not revealed Himself to you, but He sends you here, it would be to demonstrate His mercy to those to whom He has blessed with Divine knowledge. Sorry Dude, but it’s been a very difficult path that has led me here. From other posts, I got the impression, you are looking for an easy way through this life.

Obviously your path is different from my path. Nothing wrong with that… but an omniscient God SHOULD know that “one size DOES NOT fit all”. As I said, it is the responsibility of the teacher to tailor the message to the needs of the recipient… as long as he wishes to be understood. Of course if he does not care that is a whole different ballgame.

Obviously, you did not read Romans 9 as I recommended. Let me quote versus 20 to 22:

I am familiar with those passages, but the Bible carries no weight with me. The question is really simple: “Does God CARE if I (personally) understand his message?” If he does NOT care, then all is fine - he does not care about me, and I do not care about him. On the other hand, if he DOES CARE then he is supposed to “dumb down” the message to the level where an idiot like myself will comprehend and understand it.

You are not at the same level as God. Perhaps He endures your insolence, lack of faith and sinfulness with much patience.

If I have a lack of “faith” then it is his fault, since he did not provide the necessary information. You see, the problem is not with me, I am willing to listen. The problem is that there is no message that I can parse. Now you are most welcome to denigrate me and say that I am a liar, who hears the message but denies it. Or you are welcome to say that I am a drooling idiot, who hears the message but is unable to comprehend it… all that is cool. But you cannot say that the message is there, and I received it but I am not willing to follow it. That is not acceptable. There are levels of insults which are simply beyond acceptability.

 

[Bahman]

Are you wondering how God could allow most of humanity to make mistakes and give in to religious excess? He has to allow it, or else we would have no alternative and therefore would not be free.

I have no problem with religious excess. My problem is if all religions are from God then why God claim in each religion that each specific religion is the only way!

 

[Bahman]

According to you, Mr. …who?

Huh?

Your ignorance becomes clearer with each post.

It is not. Quite oppositely this means that you don’t understand what free will and convinced mean.

So you can’t stick to anything and you think that’s a virtue?

Yes, it is a excellent virtue. Do you like only one fruit? You of course try others to see how do they taste!

The fact that you think “There could be a difference between God and truth” means you don’t understand the nature of neither God nor Truth.

I in fact know the difference quite well. It seems that the failure is in your part since you cannot make distinction between two separate concept.

The fact that you’re adept to “faith-shopping” and take time out of your day to create an account on a Catholic forum, not to listen and learn, but to be an active adversary to other people, is more than enough evidence that you cannot accept God and Truth, because you have shielded yourself from it with your own pride.

In fact I didn’t shielded myself since I am open to the truth whatever it is. You might ask yourself this question whether you shielded yourself or not.

 

[Bahman]

The rational agent has to reciprocate the action or it isn’t love.

God should be able to do that.

What you’re saying is “if God is so omnipotent and omniscient, can’t He make us freely love Him without making us really free?”

You apparently love many things in your life which is matter of your taste. Couldn’t God find something way to be pleasing and loving without conferring with your free will? Yes he can!

This is to be categorized along with “why can’t God make square circles?”

It is not.

Christianity is not principally a moralism, it is a relationship with the incarnate God. Orthodox Christians don’t believe that Christ principally came here to make us all behave ourselves, although the one who does have an objective relationship with Christ will be loving. The fact that many self-proclaimed Christians have engaged in barbarisms does not address the issue of the OP.

But Jesus is not here. How any relationship could be possible with dead people?

Seeking God in my way is the problem.

Seeking what? Have you ever had any spiritual experience? How you could have a relationship with something which its existence is only a concept inside your mind? Is this a meaningful relation?

That’s what being fallen is all about.

The story of fall of Adam and Eve is just a myth. We know where we did come from? There are scientific facts which show we are the result of evolution.

My way, my life, my rules. The saint is the one who really knows and believes it is about God’s way, God’s life, and God’s rules and trusts God to align their will to that, since they can’t do it alone.

God’s way, God’s way… What are our responsibility for finding our ways? We are intellectual beings.

This is probably what St. Paul means when he says that “it is no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me.” Being free doesn’t mean being indeterminate among many options. That is being unfree. Being free means fully perfecting your nature and having no hindrances to doing so.

This doesn’t make sense at all since you have evil nature too.

Yes we are all sinners.

That is just a misconception. It is a state of mind that you are trapped in.

It’s “my way” with everyone. That’s what sin is. It’s not essentially about breaking the rules, although it includes that. Sin is “my will be done” which separates us from God.

How you could know that you get separated from God when you do sin. You apparently have no spiritual relation!

Why would I practice another religion when I know that they are untrue at least in part. It would be dishonest for me to do that.

Quite oppositely it is matter of honesty to practice other religions and judge them critically otherwise you will never understand what you are.

 

[Bahman]

Are you saying that all religions fail? Christianity is not a failure. You bring up the Crusades like everyone should know that they were wrong.

Didn’t Jesus said to love your enemy?

Some were but some were not. The idea that they were wrong came from their enemy. I believe you can point out evil in any religion. Just look at the beheadings of Christians today not hundreds of years ago. You name what you call failures but you ignore all the good that has been brought.

So burning people in fire is a part of Jesus teaching!?

Really? another error of yours.

We learn the very concept of sin from our parents which means that our essenses are blank in the time of birth.

 

[Bahman]

We shouldn’t assume he didn’t convey his message because there are some who heard and obeyed. We shouldn’t assume he failed because there are success stories. It is a given that there will be failures.

At the risk of repeating what others have commented:

1. He conveyed his message.
   a) hearers heard him
   (i) understood him but didn’t listen to him i.e. disobedient or refusal to believe i.e. evil doers/atheists
   (ii) misunderstood his message and reacted with confusion , therefore different religions
   (iii) heard him, understood him and acted accordingly, the Church
   (iv) heard him, understood him and acted accordingly but died before spreading his message successfully. i.e. missionaries that died in hostile environments.
   (v) the true message got distorted over time, intentionally or unintentionally, therefore, various denominations

b) hearer’s didn’t hear him. Not possible unless God is talking to an empty hall.

You didn’t really make any argument. Why there are many religions if there is only one God? How we could be so sure that our own religion is the only true one when there are many others we have never engage to? Are other religion man made?

 

[ericc]

You didn’t really make any argument. Why there are many religions if there is only one God?

If you have read my 1 a)(ii) and may be (v), that was my proposal for the different religions and permutations.

How we could be so sure that our own religion is the only true one when there are many others we have never engage to?

That question wasn’t in your original quest. But a short answer to that is historical confirmation by the appearance of Jesus. He confirmed that there is a visible God.

Are other religion man made?

Some possibly are. The founders of those religions are human and non-deity. They never claim Godhood as far as I know. Some didn’t asked to be worshiped but succeeding generations of followers may have done that. Some religions are just a way of life rather than a God-worshiping religion. And some just claim to speak for God. And some religions may claim to be godless. And there are various permutations so it is difficult for me to know exactly what each strain actually believes. And not all religions worship God. Some worship their ancestors, some worship spirits of nature, some demons and evil spirits. My 1 a)(i) attempts to answer that last sentence.

But I could be wrong because I didn’t do a deep study of what those religions are. If they are man made, I am not interested in following just another wise guy. There are plenty in every age.

My proposed answers attempt to deal with some of these possibilities. I am surprised that you think I made no argument at all. But I tried and I guess didn’t meet your standard of an argument. But that’s alright.