How God could have free will if he is omniscient?

[Bahman]

A guy takes a video of some friends at the beach. At the time of the video no one knows what they’re going to do next. At the end of the video it’s all on tape.

This guy then goes back in time watches the video the day before it happened. Why would no one have free will just because a known thing was known ahead of being known?

We cannot go back in time but anyway. Assume that we go back in time. Can we know future if we change our actions? No. God however know future because there is only one future. Can he change it? No.

 

[Bahman]

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Part I
Question 14. God’s knowledge
Article 13. Whether the knowledge of God is of future contingent things?

I answer that, Since as was shown above (Article 9), God knows all things; not only things actual but also things possible to Him and creature; and since some of these are future contingent to us, it follows that God knows future contingent things.

In evidence of this, we must consider that a contingent thing can be considered in two ways; first, in itself, in so far as it is now in act: and in this sense it is not considered as future, but as present; neither is it considered as contingent (as having reference) to one of two terms, but as determined to one; and on account of this it can be infallibly the object of certain knowledge, for instance to the sense of sight, as when I see that Socrates is sitting down. In another way a contingent thing can be considered as it is in its cause; and in this way it is considered as future, and as a contingent thing not yet determined to one; forasmuch as a contingent cause has relation to opposite things: and in this sense a contingent thing is not subject to any certain knowledge. Hence, whoever knows a contingent effect in its cause only, has merely a conjectural knowledge of it. Now God knows all contingent things not only as they are in their causes, but also as each one of them is actually in itself. And although contingent things become actual successively, nevertheless God knows contingent things not successively, as they are in their own being, as we do but simultaneously. The reason is because His knowledge is measured by eternity, as is also His being; and eternity being simultaneously whole comprises all time, as said above (Question 10, Article 2). Hence all things that are in time are present to God from eternity, not only because He has the types of things present within Him, as some say; but because His glance is carried from eternity over all things as they are in their presentiality. Hence it is manifest that contingent things are infallibly known by God, inasmuch as they are subject to the divine sight in their presentiality; yet they are future contingent things in relation to their own causes.

newadvent.org/summa/1014.htm#article14

This doesn’t address the conflict between foreknowledge and free will.

 

[Bahman]

Bahman go everywhere so there is no use in discussing!

What are you talking about?

 

[GodsGrace154]

This doesn’t address the conflict between foreknowledge and free will.

There is no conflict between foreknowledge and free will.

Do you have kids?

You know your daughter likes vanilla ice-cream.

You offer her both vanilla ice-cream and chocolate ice-cream.
She picks vanilla.

You knew it ahead of time.

Did you MAKE HER PICK VANILLA?

YOU are frozen because you’re heart is not open.
You desire to invent your own God.
You will not be able to.
You accept the God that already exists, or you deny God.

Accept the one that is already here Bahman.
He created everything, including you. That’s why you’re searching for Him.
But go about it the right way.
Learn about Him - the Him that already is.

GG

 

[Vico]

This doesn’t address the conflict between foreknowledge and free will.

I must have misunderstood what you are asking.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Question 19. The will of God
Article 3. Whether whatever God wills He wills necessarily?

Objection 3. Further, whatever belongs to the nature of God is necessary, for God is of Himself necessary being, and the principle of all necessity, as above shown (2, 3). But it belongs to His nature to will whatever He wills; since in God there can be nothing over and above His nature as stated in Metaph. v, 6. Therefore whatever He wills, He wills necessarily.

I answer that, There are two ways in which a thing is said to be necessary, namely, absolutely, and by supposition. We judge a thing to be absolutely necessary from the relation of the terms, as when the predicate forms part of the definition of the subject: thus it is absolutely necessary that man is an animal. It is the same when the subject forms part of the notion of the predicate; thus it is absolutely necessary that a number must be odd or even. In this way it is not necessary that Socrates sits: wherefore it is not necessary absolutely, though it may be so by supposition; for, granted that he is sitting, he must necessarily sit, as long as he is sitting. Accordingly as to things willed by God, we must observe that He wills something of absolute necessity: but this is not true of all that He wills. For the divine will has a necessary relation to the divine goodness, since that is its proper object. Hence God wills His own goodness necessarily, even as we will our own happiness necessarily, and as any other faculty has necessary relation to its proper and principal object, for instance the sight to color, since it tends to it by its own nature. But God wills things apart from Himself in so far as they are ordered to His own goodness as their end. Now in willing an end we do not necessarily will things that conduce to it, unless they are such that the end cannot be attained without them; as, we will to take food to preserve life, or to take ship in order to cross the sea. But we do not necessarily will things without which the end is attainable, such as a horse for a journey which we can take on foot, for we can make the journey without one. The same applies to other means. Hence, since the goodness of God is perfect, and can exist without other things inasmuch as no perfection can accrue to Him from them, it follows that His willing things apart from Himself is not absolutely necessary. Yet it can be necessary by supposition, for supposing that He wills a thing, then He is unable not to will it, as His will cannot change.

Reply to Objection 3. It is not natural to God to will any of those other things that He does not will necessarily; and yet it is not unnatural or contrary to His nature, but voluntary.

newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm#article3

 

[Wesrock]

Jesus has future and he is God.

God is Triune, and the son is begotten by the Father. The father is first in priority, and neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit are incarnated. You can’t boil the divinity down to simply an eternal man in a body, as glorious as such a thing is. And Jesus’ humanity is what existed in time, anyway. God is an eternal being of pure spirit, with no past or future.

 

[Bahman]

There is no conflict between foreknowledge and free will.

Do you have kids?

You know your daughter likes vanilla ice-cream.

You offer her both vanilla ice-cream and chocolate ice-cream.
She picks vanilla.

You knew it ahead of time.

Did you MAKE HER PICK VANILLA?

YOU are frozen because you’re heart is not open.
You desire to invent your own God.
You will not be able to.
You accept the God that already exists, or you deny God.

Accept the one that is already here Bahman.
He created everything, including you. That’s why you’re searching for Him.
But go about it the right way.
Learn about Him - the Him that already is.

GG

Let me expound this: God has foreknowledge meaning that he knows everything about what we call future. Future is however fixed and unique otherwise it cannot be knowable. Free will is the ability to choose an option in a situation. We as human agent do not know future but we can plan it with our actions. We can do this or that and observe the result of our decision in future. God however knows future which is changeless so his act should correspond with the unique future hence he is not free.

 

[Aloysium]

Let me expound this: God has foreknowledge meaning that he knows everything about what we call future. Future is however fixed and unique otherwise it cannot be knowable. Free will is the ability to choose an option in a situation. We as human agent do not know future but we can plan it with our actions. We can do this or that and observe the result of our decision in future. God however knows future which is changeless so his act should correspond with the unique future hence he is not free.

:twocents:

God knows our future because He is in that future as its Creator.
He is simple, and is both here, where we are in this moment and there, including all moments.
Wherever He is; cannot be but “here”, everywhere.

What is the future to you now, is not the future for everything.
It is our rational mind which cleaves eternity into a past, present and future.
It is because of our having free choice that this is so.
What we have done cannot be changed and what we will do has not been determined in this moment; it awaits our decision.

God wills everything into existence, which includes we ourselves as beings who in a finite sense create themselves as loving or otherwise.
It is one brilliant act of existence, all time and all space, the heavens and the earth, brought forth from He who is Father to all.
We just see a small snippet, and darkly at that.

 

[FractalFire]

Let me expound this: God has foreknowledge meaning that he knows everything about what we call future. Future is however fixed and unique otherwise it cannot be knowable. Free will is the ability to choose an option in a situation. We as human agent do not know future but we can plan it with our actions. We can do this or that and observe the result of our decision in future. God however knows future which is changeless so his act should correspond with the unique future hence he is not free.

Bahman,

I am sorry to see that you, once again, appear to be at your usual tactics – hard-headedly failing to listen to and interact with the responses you have been given. You merely repeat your assertion over and over. Bahman, this is not true reason or philosophy. True reason actually attempts to consider the arguments of the other side and respond to them. Never-the-less, I shall try to reply to you one last time. If you repeat the same argument as before without actually interacting with what I have said, then I will not reply. For what point is there in talking to someone who does not listen? I have already replied I think sufficiently to show that you are wrong to any reasonable person surveying from the outside.

Firstly, your definition of free will is poorly defined and I don’t think acceptable for the purposes of this discussion. William Lane Craig, for example, defines free will as to “be free of casual determinance outside of oneself.” Clearly then, in the case of God, He is free from other factors outside of himself forcing him to do something. So then tell me, what exactly is this something that is forcing God to take only one route? Something other than God? But how could such a thing possibly exist?

Your logic is essentially in this format.

1. Necessarily, if God foreknows X, then He will do X.
2. God foreknows that He will do X.
3. Therefore, necessarily, God will do X.

Unfortunately, as William Lane Craig points out, this commits a fallacy in modal logic!
It does not follow that God will *necessarily *do X. The ONLY thing that follows is
3) Therefore, God will do X.

God could *refrain *from doing X, in which case, His knowledge of the future would have been different. As with my time traveler example – Just because the time traveler knows he will choose the blue button does not mean anything *forced *him to choose the blue button. No outside force, no “Fate” dragged his hand and pressed it for him. Therefore, how can you say he has no free will? What force is oppressing him so that he is not free? His knowledge of the future does not force him to choose the blue button – pressing the blue button was what he wanted. Similarly, if I know all my future and make all my future choices at this instant, would you say that I have no free will simply because I have already decided what I will do?! What nonsense – to say that because I made a choice now a choice is denied me! God who knows all the future has already necessarily decided what He will do in all future circumstances. This still does not mean He was forced to do it – It merely means that that is what he has decided to do.

Suppose as a thought experiment, that God did not know the future. He would still choose to do X and X would still occur, He just would not be aware of it in advance. What has changed? Literally nothing *except *His knowledge has been reduced. Yet you claim that because His knowledge is greater He therefore has *less * free will? But this is just ridiculous! His knowledge has no casual effect upon the act itself – just as a time travelers knowledge about what I will do or what they will do has not casually forced us to do that thing. So until you can show a casual link between the increase of knowledge and one’s freedom to do something I remain reasonable in rejecting your logic and proclaiming that God has free will.

So, in finality, to prove to me that God has no free will, you must prove that there is some casual effect that constrains him. Knowledge alone has no casual effect on the timeline and therefore cannot fulfill this action.

 

[DCNBILL]

Let me expound this: God has foreknowledge meaning that he knows everything about what we call future. Future is however fixed and unique otherwise it cannot be knowable. Free will is the ability to choose an option in a situation. We as human agent do not know future but we can plan it with our actions. We can do this or that and observe the result of our decision in future. God however knows future which is changeless so his act should correspond with the unique future hence he is not free.

Who then, in the above statement “fixed the future?”

 

[Trident_H]

We cannot go back in time but anyway. Assume that we go back in time. Can we know future if we change our actions? No. God however know future because there is only one future. Can he change it? No.

K. Let’s say there’s only 1 future. The future that is.

Now let’s say God decides to take a nap. So He no longer knows what’s going to happen. Is the future still there?

If it’s still there does it matters if He knows it or not?

But where I split with you is in thinking there’s only 1 future that’s fixed. Because for all we know there could be an infinite # of futures. And the fact that God knows all of them doesn’t mean He can’t do something about something once in a while. It’s His choice after all.

 

[FractalFire]

But where I split with you is in thinking there’s only 1 future that’s fixed. Because for all we know there could be an infinite # of futures. And the fact that God knows all of them doesn’t mean He can’t do something about something once in a while. It’s His choice after all.

Well, ok. That’s not the typical view and I disagree with it. There are *possible *futures (and God presumably knows what could be), but omniscience also presupposes that God knows which *one *will ultimately happen. What you’re saying sounds close to open theism, a view that Craig has warned about because he argues it compromises divine omniscience. I suspect you are thinking about these universes as produced by the branching choices of people, but you forget — God knows which “path” they will ultimately choose (though he does not force them to choose it). So I would take issue with that view, as I think would some others.

 

[Bahman]

Bahman,

I am sorry to see that you, once again, appear to be at your usual tactics – hard-headedly failing to listen to and interact with the responses you have been given. You merely repeat your assertion over and over. Bahman, this is not true reason or philosophy. True reason actually attempts to consider the arguments of the other side and respond to them. Never-the-less, I shall try to reply to you one last time. If you repeat the same argument as before without actually interacting with what I have said, then I will not reply. For what point is there in talking to someone who does not listen? I have already replied I think sufficiently to show that you are wrong to any reasonable person surveying from the outside.

Firstly, your definition of free will is poorly defined and I don’t think acceptable for the purposes of this discussion. William Lane Craig, for example, defines free will as to “be free of casual determinance outside of oneself.” Clearly then, in the case of God, He is free from other factors outside of himself forcing him to do something. So then tell me, what exactly is this something that is forcing God to take only one route? Something other than God? But how could such a thing possibly exist?

Your logic is essentially in this format.

1. Necessarily, if God foreknows X, then He will do X.
2. God foreknows that He will do X.
3. Therefore, necessarily, God will do X.

Unfortunately, as William Lane Craig points out, this commits a fallacy in modal logic!
It does not follow that God will *necessarily *do X. The ONLY thing that follows is
3) Therefore, God will do X.

God could *refrain *from doing X, in which case, His knowledge of the future would have been different. As with my time traveler example – Just because the time traveler knows he will choose the blue button does not mean anything *forced *him to choose the blue button. No outside force, no “Fate” dragged his hand and pressed it for him. Therefore, how can you say he has no free will? What force is oppressing him so that he is not free? His knowledge of the future does not force him to choose the blue button – pressing the blue button was what he wanted. Similarly, if I know all my future and make all my future choices at this instant, would you say that I have no free will simply because I have already decided what I will do?! What nonsense – to say that because I made a choice now a choice is denied me! God who knows all the future has already necessarily decided what He will do in all future circumstances. This still does not mean He was forced to do it – It merely means that that is what he has decided to do.

Suppose as a thought experiment, that God did not know the future. He would still choose to do X and X would still occur, He just would not be aware of it in advance. What has changed? Literally nothing *except *His knowledge has been reduced. Yet you claim that because His knowledge is greater He therefore has *less * free will? But this is just ridiculous! His knowledge has no casual effect upon the act itself – just as a time travelers knowledge about what I will do or what they will do has not casually forced us to do that thing. So until you can show a casual link between the increase of knowledge and one’s freedom to do something I remain reasonable in rejecting your logic and proclaiming that God has free will.

So, in finality, to prove to me that God has no free will, you must prove that there is some casual effect that constrains him. Knowledge alone has no casual effect on the timeline and therefore cannot fulfill this action.

So lets put facts together and make an argument:

1. Future is unique
2. God knows future
3. God has free will
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God can change future
5. (1) and (4) contradict each other
6. (1) is correct hence (3) is wrong

 

[Bahman]

Who then, in the above statement “fixed the future?”

We fix future.

 

[Bahman]

K. Let’s say there’s only 1 future. The future that is.

Now let’s say God decides to take a nap. So He no longer knows what’s going to happen. Is the future still there?

God cannot have a nap since he sustains creation.

If it’s still there does it matters if He knows it or not?

It is really matter that God knows future since God sustains creation.

But where I split with you is in thinking there’s only 1 future that’s fixed. Because for all we know there could be an infinite # of futures. And the fact that God knows all of them doesn’t mean He can’t do something about something once in a while. It’s His choice after all.

There is only one future because future is defined as a situation in time where all free agents perform their actions.

 

[FractalFire]

So lets put facts together and make an argument:

1. Future is unique
2. God knows future
3. God has free will
4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God can change future
5. (1) and (4) contradict each other
6. (1) is correct hence (3) is wrong

:sigh: That’s your best response? Again, a mere assertion of your argument without responding to my point? I rest my case.

Please come back when and if you are willing to read and respond in detail to my counterargument – I’d love to actually interact with you.

Also, that is NOT how you lay out a logically valid argument Bahman. Its much too confused. Merely numbering sentences does not an argument make. 1) and 2) for example are saying the same thing in different ways, for one. If God knows the future, then by definition there is only one future he knows. So your entire structure falls apart from there into nonsense.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Well, ok. That’s not the typical view and I disagree with it. There are *possible *futures (and God presumably knows what could be), but omniscience also presupposes that God knows which *one *will ultimately happen. What you’re saying sounds close to open theism, a view that Craig has warned about because he argues it compromises divine omniscience. I suspect you are thinking about these universes as produced by the branching choices of people, but you forget — God knows which “path” they will ultimately choose (though he does not force them to choose it). So I would take issue with that view, as I think would some others.

Good morning Fractal Fire

I agree with what you say above. I’d like to say that open theism is a lie and is not compatible with Christianity as we understand it since we’re taught that God is a personal God and did not abandon us to ourselves.

God knows the path. Okay.

How do you understand a miracle to happen? Does God know that beforehand?
Or does He “change His mind.” Which seems impossible…

I have no opinion. I’ve always wanted to study this a bit, but never have.
Maybe He’s just an observer - outside of time - but things could be changed along that timeline?

There are those who will say that the mere observance would cause a change - but I don’t agree with that - at this point. There are studies being done that seem to prove that if a sub-atomic (or atomic? Can’t remember) particle is being WATCHED, it changes its direction.
If I can find it on youtube will post again.

GG

 

[Bahman]

:sigh: That’s your best response? Again, a mere assertion of your argument without responding to my point? I rest my case.

Please come back when and if you are willing to read and respond in detail to my counterargument – I’d love to actually interact with you.

Also, that is NOT how you lay out a logically valid argument Bahman. Its much too confused. Merely numbering sentences does not an argument make. 1) and 2) for example are saying the same thing in different ways, for one. If God knows the future, then by definition there is only one future he knows. So your entire structure falls apart from there into nonsense.

I am waiting to hear your counter argument or to see a reason that why my argument is wrong.

 

[GodsGrace154]

Let me expound this: God has foreknowledge meaning that he knows everything about what we call future. Future is however fixed and unique otherwise it cannot be knowable. Free will is the ability to choose an option in a situation. We as human agent do not know future but we can plan it with our actions. We can do this or that and observe the result of our decision in future. God however knows future which is changeless so his act should correspond with the unique future hence he is not free.

Bahman,

I cannot agree with your premise that we can plan our future with our actions.

We can do this or that, as you say, and observe the result. But observing the result is not the same as planning our future with our actions. The “observing” comes after, the “planning” comes before.

So let’s say I decide to move to Florida. I like the sunshine and I believe I’ll be happy there.

I move down there and get a job. All is good.

Have I planned for my future? I thought I did.

But I lose my job. Can’t find another one. What to do? I have to move back up to NY because that’s where I can find another job.

Had I planned my future? I thought I did. But apparently I don’t have the control over it that I thought I did. My free will allowed me to move to a different state, but my free will could not control the outcome.

So, do you think GOD cannot control an outcome?? Does this fact that He KNOWS the future take away His free will?

You always compare God to a human. Do you not understand that God is not human?
In a previous post, I had stated that, in a way, ONLY GOD has free will. Satan chooses to do evil, he only has this one choice. We can decide to choose for good or for evil. This is our free will choice. But limited to these options. God, on the other hand, has full freedom to choose from anything! How do we know there are not more choices? Are we God? Who can know what’s in the spirit realm. We only know what we know.

Did you ever ponder this:

Ephesians 6:12

What do you think it means?
Is there something going on that we are not privy to? That we cannot see?

WHY is this so difficult for you to accept?
Is this just a game you’re playing with the rest of us or are you really seeking?

Vico has posted some good stuff. Do you even read it?
And it would almost be okay if you didn’t - If ONLY you trusted God.

Yeah. Your reasoning is a bit off.

GG

 

[GodsGrace154]

God cannot have a nap since he sustains creation.

It is really matter that God knows future since God sustains creation.

There is only one future because future is defined as a situation in time where all free agents perform their actions.

Actually, Bahman, you’re right here.
God sustains creation and so could not stop sustaining it.
Hebrews 1:3
Colossians 1:17
Job 33:4

Also, you’re right that God knows the future, had the FREE WILL to choose it AS HE SO DESIRED, and we, the free moral agents, within our own free will, act toward that future.

Do you know the analogy of the football game?

And you still haven’t told me if you own a bible…

GG