How God could have free will if he is omniscient?

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Bahman said:
So lets put facts together and make an argument:
  1. Future is unique
  2. God knows future
  3. God has free will
  4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God can change future
  5. (1) and (4) contradict each other
  6. (1) is correct hence (3) is wrong
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How is 3 wrong?
WHO picked 1? Who made that future?
Was that picking not by free will?

GG
 
Bahman said:
This is very simple to understand: Free will is ability to freely choose one option in a situation, which is defined with at least two options. God however is omniscient which means that he knows the actions he has to perform in future. This leaves no room for free will.
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A physical situation implies limitations. God is, in a sense, the ground of all situations. God is identical with his will, which is his intellect, which is his power, which is his being. God is not in a “situation”. God simply is. There is no option which God chooses. God’s will is according to what he is - perfection. God simply does what he is without limitation. God has absolute and true freedom. God does not have human free-will, for this is a limited form of freedom based on the limitations of creation itself. God simply does the perfect thing. God’s perfection is his freedom.

So no, God does not have “free-will” in the limited human sense of the word because God is not an imperfect being. God simply is without limitation from anything else.
 
GodsGrace154 said:
How is 3 wrong?
WHO picked 1? Who made that future?
Was that picking not by free will?

GG
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(1) and (4) contradict each other hence either (1) or (4) is wrong. We know that (1) is correct hence (4) is wrong. (3) is wrong because (4) is wrong.
 
Bahman said:
I am waiting to hear your counter argument or to see a reason that why my argument is wrong.
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I have already explained why multiple times and in detail. I’m still not entirely sure you ever actually read it. See post #48, where I explained clearly where you have gone wrong. I then explicitly challenged you to show the *casual *connection between God’s knowledge and the future. If no such connection can be shown, then logically, your argument falls apart as I showed. This you refused to do and simply restated the *same *argument you have already given at least a least a dozen times in a series of points. I pointed out that your argument as phrased did not correctly utilize the laws of logic (which is enough to refute it, actually) and that as you had made no further claim, there was nothing else to respond to.

If you wish to continue, please A) Read my arguments thoroughly and reply in such a manner that* proves you have read and comprehended what I have said*. B) Show (or attempt to show) some casual connection between knowledge and the future such that knowledge of the future restricts action in the future (ie. Explain the cause/effect. Why does the existence of knowledge restrict free will? How can the presence of knowledge have a casual effect such that I am forced to do something?). Failing this, at least explain why I am wrong and no casual connection is required (again, interacting with what I said earlier). C) Rephrase your argument in a way that is logically valid, without these all these unnecessary premises and extraneous conclusions. If your argument is not logically sound, it cannot be responded to.
 
FractalFire said:
I have already explained why multiple times and in detail. I’m still not entirely sure you ever actually read it. See post #48, where I explained clearly where you have gone wrong. I then explicitly challenged you to show the *casual *connection between God’s knowledge and the future. If no such connection can be shown, then logically, your argument falls apart as I showed. This you refused to do and simply restated the *same *argument you have already given at least a least a dozen times in a series of points. I pointed out that your argument as phrased did not correctly utilize the laws of logic (which is enough to refute it, actually) and that as you had made no further claim, there was nothing else to respond to.

If you wish to continue, please A) Read my arguments thoroughly and reply in such a manner that* proves you have read and comprehended what I have said*. B) Show (or attempt to show) some casual connection between knowledge and the future such that knowledge of the future restricts action in the future (ie. Explain the cause/effect. Why does the existence of knowledge restrict free will? How can the presence of knowledge have a casual effect such that I am forced to do something?). Failing this, at least explain why I am wrong and no casual connection is required (again, interacting with what I said earlier). C) Rephrase your argument in a way that is logically valid, without these all these unnecessary premises and extraneous conclusions. If your argument is not logically sound, it cannot be responded to.
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Which post do you want me to reply to?
 
Bahman said:
No, we are not gods. We are just allowed to act at now. This way we can fix future.
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If we are not God we can not create we are not the cause of ourselves.

If God is creator outside of time, then He created everything and every time.

If He did this then all of creation and all of time is already done.

All of creation and all of time has already happened with respect to God since He created it.

So no, we do not fix the future we live our lives within the creation that God is already done with.

I agree that this is a difficult concept for us, as creatures to understand, but even so God has given us a great gift of His Holy Spirit, that dwells within His chosen people which allows them to gain a very small glimpse of His reality, which to us is mystery.
 
Bahman said:
God cannot have a nap since he sustains creation.

It is really matter that God knows future since God sustains creation.

There is only one future because future is defined as a situation in time where all free agents perform their actions.
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How do you know? I mean this sounds like you’re defining things into a box so you can carry it home. I don’t have to agree do I?

Because a future could just as easily be a winnowing plane of options that reach a point at the moment they move from future to present. So why can’t I just tell you what you need to believe instead?

I mean I’ve brought my own box and everything. 😉

Peace Bahman.

-Trident
 
Bahman said:
(1) and (4) contradict each other hence either (1) or (4) is wrong. We know that (1) is correct hence (4) is wrong. (3) is wrong because (4) is wrong.
Click to expand...
So lets put facts together and make an argument:
  1. Future is unique
  2. God knows future
  3. God has free will
  4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God can change future
  5. (1) and (4) contradict each other
  6. (1) is correct hence (3) is wrong
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

You see Bahman,
You’re trying to understand God using Mathematical or Philosophical formulas.
This cannot be done. What I’m repeating again is that God cannot be understood.

We Christians talk about how God has a plan. Some grand plan and everything is going toward that one plan.

You mean to say that God had NO FREE WILL in choosing that plan and/or the outcome of that plan? Once He had the plan in His mind and He could see it on that timeline - what difference does it make? He still decided on the plan and put it into action.

Your no. 1 is flawed because you say that future is unique.
WHO said so?
God can change natural Laws. I mean laws of nature. HE made them up and HE can change them.

Think of an ant and think of you.
Do you suppose an ant can understand you?
It’s about the same when you try to understand God.

We can have philosophical discussions, but saying God has no free will makes no sense at all.

GG
 
GodsGrace154 said:
You’re trying to understand God using Mathematical or Philosophical formulas.
This cannot be done. What I’m repeating again is that God cannot be understood.
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I’m sure Aquinas, Augustine, and all the other Christian Philosophers who lived throughout history would be surprised to hear that (besides the fact that the underlined statement is self-refuting). Yes, you cannot explain God *fully *using philosophical principles, but they are useful to a degree. I maintain that Bahman’s argument is wrong mostly because he doesn’t understand how philosophical and logical arguments actually work and isn’t listening to correction. 😦 (Sorry to be blunt Bahman, but it is sadly true and even a philosopher who *agreed *with you would point out that your logical constructions are very flawed.)
 
FractalFire said:
I’m sure Aquinas, Augustine, and all the other Christian Philosophers who lived throughout history would be surprised to hear that (besides the fact that the underlined statement is self-refuting). Yes, you cannot explain God *fully *using philosophical principles, but they are useful to a degree. I maintain that Bahman’s argument is wrong mostly because he doesn’t understand how philosophical and logical arguments actually work and isn’t listening to correction. 😦 (Sorry to be blunt Bahman, but it is sadly true and even a philosopher who *agreed *with you would point out that your logical constructions are very flawed.)
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My favorite was Aquinas. I answer…
But they weren’t trying to understand God, they were trying to understand About God.
Priests are required to take 2 to 3 years of Philosophy. Of course it helps.
But it still doesn’t let you understand God.
We will never understand God.
He’s above our pay scale.

BTW, interesting that you answered the above and not my question to you on miracles.
But nobody really knows about those either - just something interesting to ponder.

GG
 
IWantGod said:
A physical situation implies limitations. God is, in a sense, the ground of all situations. God is identical with his will, which is his intellect, which is his power, which is his being. God is not in a “situation”. God simply is. There is no option which God chooses. God’s will is according to what he is - perfection. God simply does what he is without limitation. God has absolute and true freedom. God does not have human free-will, for this is a limited form of freedom based on the limitations of creation itself. God simply does the perfect thing. God’s perfection is his freedom.

So no, God does not have “free-will” in the limited human sense of the word because God is not an imperfect being. God simply is without limitation from anything else.
Click to expand...
This is a bunch of definitions which I don’t know what to do with it. You need to focus on the argument and try to find an error within.
 
GodsGrace154 said:
So lets put facts together and make an argument:
  1. Future is unique
  2. God knows future
  3. God has free will
  4. From (2) and (3) we can deduce that God can change future
  5. (1) and (4) contradict each other
  6. (1) is correct hence (3) is wrong
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

You see Bahman,
You’re trying to understand God using Mathematical or Philosophical formulas.
This cannot be done. What I’m repeating again is that God cannot be understood.

We Christians talk about how God has a plan. Some grand plan and everything is going toward that one plan.

You mean to say that God had NO FREE WILL in choosing that plan and/or the outcome of that plan? Once He had the plan in His mind and He could see it on that timeline - what difference does it make? He still decided on the plan and put it into action.

Your no. 1 is flawed because you say that future is unique.
WHO said so?
God can change natural Laws. I mean laws of nature. HE made them up and HE can change them.

Think of an ant and think of you.
Do you suppose an ant can understand you?
It’s about the same when you try to understand God.

We can have philosophical discussions, but saying God has no free will makes no sense at all.

GG
Click to expand...
You are correct. So I stick to my original argument: Free will is ability to freely choose one option in a situation, which is defined with at least two options. God however is omniscient which means that he knows the actions he has to perform in future. This leaves no room for free will.
 
Bahman said:
You are correct. So I stick to my original argument: Free will is ability to freely choose one option in a situation, which is defined with at least two options. God however is omniscient which means that he knows the actions he has to perform in future. This leaves no room for free will.
Click to expand...
Free will choice is not denied by foreknowledge. God knows all potentials, which include choices.
 
God has no future; He is not in time.
He creates all time, as He does this moment.
He is omniscient and omnipotent.
You have no argument Bahman.
 
Bahman said:
This is very simple to understand: Free will is ability to freely choose one option in a situation, which is defined with at least two options. God however is omniscient which means that he knows the actions he -]has/-] wills to perform in future. -]This leaves no room for free will/-].
Click to expand...
God always does good. That God always does good, does not imply He could not do otherwise, only that He wills not to do otherwise. In a parallel but imperfect manner, a virtuous man always does good because he has habitually disciplined himself to do so. However, the virtuous man remains just as free as the vicious man.
 
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