How has the Anglican Communion gone wrong?

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No more than an adulterer, porn addict, white collar criminal, swinger, abortionist, or any other sinner. That doesn’t mean homosexuality is not a sin. You draw a lot of conclusions, Manassah, from not even knowing us in this forum 😉
In that same light gurney you base ALL your opinions on only one source. My views are based in research, intelligence, and knowing the individuals of whom I speak. After all, I wouldn’t expect you to know a thing about Tibetan Buddhism. 🙂
** As for the second comment, agreed, it was a typo. I’m glad you still got the drift. **
 
How can one say the Bible does not reffer to committed Homosexuality as being wrong when Jesus himself said In the beginning God created them man and woman while preaching about marriage? Homosexuality is wrong at any level and should not be condoned by any Christian but we must love the sinner and hate the sin. We need to pray for them to have a true conversion.
Jesus never said anything of the kind. References please. LOL @ “love the sinner, hate the sin” … :rolleyes:
 
You’re really something Manassah
Yes. Thanks.
We have no common ground because I want nothing to do with evil lifestyles
You’re off on that one. We have no common ground because you waste the life God gave you wallowing in small-mindedness and myopia. Of course it’s yours to do with what you please. But in that same light I’m free to access all means of realizing Grace. 😉
 
So your thesis is that, if some kind of sexual behavior has been with us since ancient times, then it is normal and healthy? Rape, polyamory, pedophilia, incest, and bestiality have been with us since ancient times; I guess those are normal sexual behaviors then? :confused::rolleyes:
One would think that, as you state, “homosexual acts have been with us since ancient times” you’d realize it was as legitimate a sexual orientation as heteroseuxality…

Recall also that well into the 20th women were not allowed the vote and in the 18th century they were chattel. The times they are (finally) a’ changin’.
 
Your ignorance of my knowledge is seeping through your pores, Manassah. I studied Buddhism for years, have observed it first hand in Thailand and China, visited Buddhist temples and am well aware of all types of not only Therevada Buddhism, but also the various Mahayana realities be they Vajrayana, Tantric, Zen, Pure Land Amida Buddha devotion, or many of the others. It might surprise you to know that for several years I was deeply into Buddhism and considered myself one. You know the three words that exist in the word “assume” right! 😉
In that same light gurney you base ALL your opinions on only one source. My views are based in research, intelligence, and knowing the individuals of whom I speak. After all, I wouldn’t expect you to know a thing about Tibetan Buddhism. 🙂
 
The idea that your opinions are based on “intelligence” and “research” and that the rest of us dumb clucks are so far beneath your radiant levels of gnosis gives one a royal chuckle! 😛
In that same light gurney you base ALL your opinions on only one source. My views are based in research, intelligence, and knowing the individuals of whom I speak. After all, I wouldn’t expect you to know a thing about Tibetan Buddhism. 🙂
 
Part I
Minority groups are a legal definition, and there has been no court in America that has recognized homosexuals as a distinct minority group like women and racial minorities.
No. They are not a “legal definition”. You’re mistaken.

Ummmmmmmmmm you need to do the work before you make the assertion:

“A minority is a sociological group that does not make up a politically dominant voting majority of the total population of a given society. A sociological minority is not necessarily a numerical minority — it may include any group that is subnormal with respect to a dominant group in terms of social status, education, employment, wealth and political power.”

Google “minority group”.
Even still, it is illegal to discriminate against homosexuals in hiring and firing in the work force, and rightfully so. What people chose do in their private lives is none of our business.
But so many self-proclaimed “Christians” make it their business. Why do you suppose?
The agenda lies in the fact that I am not asked to “tolerate” homosexuality
.

You bet you’re not asked to “tolerate” it. One tolerates an errant child. Right now I’m “tolerating” your mostly-bigoted retorts. Please note the difference.

I’m asked to embrace it and see homosexual unions has holy in the eyes of God, despite what the word of God and Christian tradition have always taught. I cannot do that.

You are free to believe anything you like. You simply cannot force that belief to the detriment of a minority group. And who is asking you to “embrace” homosexuality or see it as holy? No one, that’s who. I think traditional (if not most) Christianity is poppycock but I’m not going to make a case for it on this board.
Tell me. Have homosexuals even been told to ride in the back of the bus, or say, drink from gay water fountains, or not given the right to vote? This comparison is off, by a country mile. Was being black ever declared a mental illness? No.
Why would you draw similarities to gay rights to that of the black civil rights movement or any other plight of an historical minority group fighting for its rights? Gay people are not black people (unless they’re gay and black). Each minority group has suffered in its own singular way by those who feel threatened by its very existence. You’d think you’d get this. You, of all the posters I’ve read here, seem brighter than that. I could go on and on about bullying, name-calling, and beatings but what’s the point?

You and those like you want to disallow gay people the same rights and life of normality you have under our Constitution as if it weren’t going to be noticed. Well it is being noticed. And change is coming fast. No more estrangement of gay teens to the point of suicide.

Go to YouTube and type in “It gets better”. You’ll educate yourself.
I could care less about what they do in the privacy of their homes and in their private lives. If thats all they asked of us, I’m fine with that. But its not.
No?

Oh foolish me. I forgot about those long tables at the entrances to American high schools where the demon homosexual enlisters wait to sign up the wayward homosexual. :rolleyes: Woops sorry. I’ve confused them with the American military. 😉
If Levitcal laws are all we had, you would be right. But Paul makes it clear (1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1) that homosexuality is wrong. Unless one wants to try to make the scriptures say something that they want. In the last days, many will gather around them a great number of teachers and say what their itching ears want to hear, deviations from the word of God. Its ok to be gay, God blesses your gay union!
And you mean to tell me that all the regulations in the New Testament are valid in today’s context?? Paul, in more elevated Christian circles, is suspected of being a closeted homosexual himself.

Oh damn it all. I just read “last days”. There goes my confidence in your intellect. Again. No common ground. Do you believe in the boogeyman too?
 
Part II
The evidence does not suggest that its 10 percent.
You’re right! I was being conservative.
I don’t condemn anyone. I let the Bible speak for itself.
You let “the Bible speak for itself” where it suits you.
True, but slavery in Greco-Roman times was far different than the American experience.
No difference. Homosexual inclinations are homosexual inclinations. You cannot get a heterosexual man to have sexual relations with a gay one. As the old saying goes “you can’t play billiards with an earthworm”.
Be sure not to read that understanding into it. Slavery in those times often benefited the slave and the master.
I’ll warrant homosexuality “benefitted” the two participants equally in that day too! Indeed homosexuality benefits homosexuals today as it has from time immemorial. Why? Because we speak of homosexuals. You write as if you believe there’s no variable in sexuality… as if it’s all heterosexuality or homosexuality. Nothing could be further from the truth.
People with debt could sell themselves into slavery for a time to pay off debts and be freed when those debts were reconciled.
That’s some pretty clever footwork you did dancing around the topic and explaining away the biases you find politically correct to justify! I bet some would be convinced even. I’m not.
Sex, violence etc…are all problems in our society and have become too accepted. Sex between a man and his wife is a gift from God.
It is, equally, between a man and a man and a woman and a woman when they love one another
All other forms a perversion.
Pure unadulterated bigotry.
Its fine for adults IMO who can look past it, but when it comes to children, they need to be protected from all of it.
Who? Gay children? They need role models and positive ones at that.
I get mad about viagra commericals and such coming on before 9pm on channels that kids will be watching. Its wrong.
Save your indignation for something worthwhile. Any child still up at nine o’clock at night surely knows what what a penis is and the function it serves. If not it’s a perfect opportunity to have a good talk with the child.
If gay people want to say put out their flags and what not, thats fine with me.
No one needs your permission.
I personally wish the government would get out of “marriage” all together, issue everyone (straight and gay couples) certificates of union, and let the churches decide whom they will and will not all to participate in marriage. Get the state out of it! Heck gay people should get the same rights in hospitals (next of kin, power of attorney etc…) for their partners as straight people do.
Just so you know? The word “marriage” was around long before Christianity. The Christian holds no patent on it.

You, sir, are a study in contradiction.
 
Your ignorance of my knowledge is seeping through your pores, Manassah. I studied Buddhism for years, have observed it first hand in Thailand and China, visited Buddhist temples and am well aware of all types of not only Therevada Buddhism, but also the various Mahayana realities be they Vajrayana, Tantric, Zen, Pure Land Amida Buddha devotion, or many of the others. It might surprise you to know that for several years I was deeply into Buddhism and considered myself one. You know the three words that exist in the word “assume” right! 😉
Reminds of the time someone suggested I really needed to learn a little about Chesterton; would do me good.

GKC
 
Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1
Your ignorance of my knowledge is seeping through your pores, Manassah. I studied Buddhism for years, have observed it first hand in Thailand and China, visited Buddhist temples and am well aware of all types of not only Therevada Buddhism, but also the various Mahayana realities be they Vajrayana, Tantric, Zen, Pure Land Amida Buddha devotion, or many of the others. It might surprise you to know that for several years I was deeply into Buddhism and considered myself one.
Interesting. If so, pity you gained no real understanding in the process.

All frightened wayward Roman Catholics (Buddhism notwithstanding) eventually put their tale between their legs and slither back to the indoctrination of their youth. There’s no great surprise there gurney.
You know the three words that exist in the word “assume” right!
Tell me true. You didn’t just make reference to that sophomoric hackneyed old joke of “makes an *** of U and ME”. Is that truly the level of conversation you desire? :rolleyes: Well I suppose. When you have no legitimate comeback any port in a storm, eh?
 
Considering your screen name along, even a newbie could do the math there! 😃 But I do think you need to learn a little about Lewis, Tolkien, comic books, nukes, and sci fi. Studying a little about the military and how aircraft works might do you some good, too. Throw in some knowledge of England and I think you might be getting somewhere…😛

By the way, my rector, Father James, emailed and said, “where are you guys!?” asking about Kate and I. He was saying how they miss us and are studying infusion vs. imputation on Wednesday nights and how not having me in the conversation was a loss, etc. I miss them already…😦 I was trying to think about what I should tell him, how I should put it, and Kate (who never wanted to leave the Anglican church!) said, “tell him we’ll see him this Sunday!” 😉 Sarcastic little devil…My kids and wife loved St. Paul’s. Maybe I’m the insane one? I’m the only one who even missed Catholicism at all here! LOL
Reminds of the time someone suggested I really needed to learn a little about Chesterton; would do me good.

GKC
 
Manassah, you’re obviously a troll and trying to gode me into a turf war with the insults and “your mama!” type barbs. Not takin’ the bait, son. 😉 I’m putting you on ignore. Have a good one! 👍
Interesting. If so, pity you gained no real understanding in the process.

All frightened wayward Roman Catholics (Buddhism notwithstanding) eventually put their tale between their legs and slither back to the indoctrination of their youth. There’s no great surprise there gurney.
 
Considering your screen name along, even a newbie could do the math there! 😃 But I do think you need to learn a little about Lewis, Tolkien, comic books, nukes, and sci fi. Studying a little about the military and how aircraft works might do you some good, too. Throw in some knowledge of England and I think you might be getting somewhere…😛

By the way, my rector, Father James, emailed and said, “where are you guys!?” asking about Kate and I. He was saying how they miss us and are studying infusion vs. imputation on Wednesday nights and how not having me in the conversation was a loss, etc. I miss them already…😦 I was trying to think about what I should tell him, how I should put it, and Kate (who never wanted to leave the Anglican church!) said, “tell him we’ll see him this Sunday!” 😉 Sarcastic little devil…My kids and wife loved St. Paul’s. Maybe I’m the insane one? I’m the only one who even missed Catholicism at all here! LOL
With reference to her Anglicanism, Kate’s a wise woman.
 
Considering your screen name along, even a newbie could do the math there! 😃 But I do think you need to learn a little about Lewis, Tolkien, comic books, nukes, and sci fi. Studying a little about the military and how aircraft works might do you some good, too. Throw in some knowledge of England and I think you might be getting somewhere…😛

By the way, my rector, Father James, emailed and said, “where are you guys!?” asking about Kate and I. He was saying how they miss us and are studying infusion vs. imputation on Wednesday nights and how not having me in the conversation was a loss, etc. I miss them already…😦 I was trying to think about what I should tell him, how I should put it, and Kate (who never wanted to leave the Anglican church!) said, “tell him we’ll see him this Sunday!” 😉 Sarcastic little devil…My kids and wife loved St. Paul’s. Maybe I’m the insane one? I’m the only one who even missed Catholicism at all here! LOL
I’m working on those you mention, as usual. Ordered a book on the Ketsu-Go plan, yesterday. Picked up 4 Chesterton related works, over the past 2 weeks or so. Going to a comic con with Roy, in 2 weeks. Bought the latest SF book by my friend Gene and sent him a letter, last week. Also 2 other SF titles by a gentleman I had only a passing acquaintance with, previously. As has been true for 50 years, I continue.

Also, I have a hammer and nail, if needed.

GKC
 
Well my wife isn’t a happy camper. You could staple-gun or rivet me and I can’t promise anything! LOL I’m about 1/3 into the way of “Mere Christianity” and God I’m bored to tears…😊
I’m working on those you mention, as usual. Ordered a book on the Ketsu-Go plan, yesterday. Picked up 4 Chesterton related works, over the past 2 weeks or so. Going to a comic con with Roy, in 2 weeks. Bought the latest SF book by my friend Gene and sent him a letter, last week. Also 2 other SF titles by a gentleman I had only a passing acquaintance with, previously. As has been true for 50 years, I continue.

Also, I have a hammer and nail, if needed.

GKC
 
. . . .Make no mistake. There’s a heterosexual agenda too. You’re simply too close to it to recognize it. Intelligent and fair change takes time in the face of mass ignorance. . . .
The audacious condemnation of some who’d call themselves “Christian” is only the latest in the series of “prejudices du jour” which, when looked back on a generation from now, will be a source of great shame. . . .
But for any thinking person to actually buy into that hogwash is a statement more about that individual than it is the homosexual. . . .
Manassah,

I’ve read your posts and responses. Clearly, you hit the forums ready for a fight. I don’t know what you have been through in your life; but I do know that sometimes anger comes from hurtful past experiences.

The same-sex affection issue is a tough one. It is one of the issues that is tearing the Anglican Communion apart. I’m preparing from Confirmation in a conservative Episcopal Church. Our Rector welcomes all people to worship with us, including those of same-sex affection. However, he is against blessing same-sex unions or ordination of those in same-sex relationships. I agree with him. That doesn’t mean that I hate homosexuals. My views are based on my Christian beliefs and the Christian Tradition that has been handed down for the last 2,000 years.

You have a right to your beliefs. Those of us who disagree with you have a right to our beliefs. This is freedom of religion.

If I disagree with you, that does not put me in a group of “mass ignorance” or mean that I have a “heterosexual agenda,” or that I am not a “thinking person.” My disagreement does not mean that I am one who simply calls myself “Christian” participating in the "latest in the series of “prejudices du jour.”

Once marriage is redefined as other than the marriage of one man to one woman, the flood gates open to all sorts of marriage models. Should polygamy be legalized? Should the age for marriage be changed? Should 12 year old girls be married to older men? Should one woman have multiple husbands? Should two men and two women be married to each other with sex between all partners within that marriage? My point is that opening the door to gay marriage involves greater issues.

What about the Sacraments? Should the Sacrament of Marriage be redefined? Should an 8th Sacrament be added to accommodate same sex unions? Changing one Sacrament opens the door to changing any Sacrament.

The DOCTRINE ON THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY was clearly defined by the The Council of Trent, which stated, “. . . . holy Fathers, the Councils, and the tradition of the universal Church, always taught, that it is to be numbered amongst the sacraments of the new law; against which, impious men of this age raging, have not only had false notions touching this venerable sacrament, but, introducing according to their wont, . . . .” Link: history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct24.html

I disagree with you on the same-sex issue, and I do so without hurling insults. I respect you as a fellow human being, regardless of your beliefs or sexual orientation.

I have great compassion for those struggling with the same-gender affection issue. I don’t know how much is genetic or how much is due to environment. As a woman who endured sexual assault in my childhood, I am aware that sometimes women, who have been abused by men, turn their affections to women. Fortunately, I have not personally had to deal with such a shift in affection; but I have great compassion for those who have. Childhood abuse can create the same shift in sexual affection for men, as well. I think we all realize it’s a complicated issue.

If you are looking for Biblical support for your beliefs, the liberal Episcopal movement has produced documents claiming Biblical support of same gender unions/homosexuality. I disagree with their Biblical interpretation; and I have the right and religious freedom to disagree.

This is a difficult issue with passionate beliefs on all sides. You have the freedom to express your beliefs on these Catholic forums. Personal insults have no place in such discussions and are actually against CAF forum rules.

I continue to pray for peace and unity among all Christians. I pray that you will find truth and peace.

Anna
 
Following the scriptures as they are written, and asking that others also do this is not uncharitable at all.

Nowhere in scripture is there any provision for “updating” their meanings. And, it is not just in the Old Testament where same sex relations are condemned.

The Anglican Church claims to be a part of the Catholic Church (Large C), and to follow its traditions and practices. Yet, in fact, it has never done this at all. From it’s very beginning (which was to allow Henry VIII a divorce), till today, the Anglican Church has flouted Catholic Doctrine, Catholic Traditions and Catholic Mores.

Today, it has completely removed itself from even the sham Catholic teachings that it professed to hold dear. Instead, it chooses to destroy itself in its quest to be “relevant” to the world.

It is shrinking, in ALL areas of the world. In England, its home, less than 10% of the nominally Anglican people attend church services. The church is seen as being totally irrelevant by the people. The Christian churches that are growing are the Roman Catholic and the much more fundamentalist churches.

The same is true in Canada, the USA, all of the former British colonies, in fact in all of the world.

Sadly, the Anglican Communion can not see that the further it removes itself from the Bible, and from Christian traditions, the smaller it becomes.

At the rate it is dying out, in another 100 years, there will be no Anglican Church left, other than the Anglican Ordinariate within the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps it is better that this happen, to remove this remnant of a church that once actually stood for Christian beliefs and principles.
 
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