How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[Lorelei12]

If I’m going to put all that effort into a relationship and take that many risks, there better be something in it for me. Women already have plenty of incentives, since the legal institution is basically aimed at forcing the man to stay with her. But what do men have? The courts give women handsome divorce settlements, alimony, child custody and lots of other perks. The question I ask myself is this "What can I get from marriage that I CANNOT get from cohabitation with any regular woman? The answer to that question is virginity, since only the most ultraconservative women tend to be virgins… All of the other perks of marriage can be enjoyed outside of marriage. I’m not the type who does extra work for nothing. Extra work = extra reward

Oh, dear. Once again, I’ll say that you really have no understanding of marriage at all. If you think all a successful marriage needs is two virgins you’ll end up in divorce court just as you fear. Especially if you think “extra work= extra reward”. Most often in marriage, this is just not true, at least not in your understanding of the word “reward”.

You mentioned earlier all the threads on this board about married people where one is having difficulty because the other wasn’t a virgin. While I have seen these come up occasionally, they are very rare. I’d suggest you take a look through some of the other threads on here, to get a better idea of what marriage is like and the various other trials married people face. Most have absolutely nothing to do with “virgin” status at marriage. You will also see that people in happy marriages are not generally thinking about what they are getting from it, but rather what they give to their spouse and how they carry one another’s burdens. Until and unless you can understand and appreciate the true nature of marriage, please do yourself and the women around you a favor and refrain from dating.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Regardless if the woman is practicing or not, if she is not a virgin, I don’t want a relationship with her. I would accept a virgin non-practicing Catholic woman AS LONG AS she was pro-life, not a cheater, and met the rest of the requirements I have.

Wow… incredible… do you know the problem a non-practicing Catholic could be for the religious education of children? and she is going to be on mortal sin constantly… that doesn’t bother you?

And worthless? how you can say that?

I get the impression that you value virginity, not for spiritual ones, but for secular/materialistic ones. And, when a Catholic places secularistic concerns over religious ones… is, exasperating. Be it the more common liberal and progressives that put secularistic “culture” and standards above Catholic ones… or what you are doing.

 

[Xantippe]

enterthenewage said:

“Yeah there are major payoffs for women. Even when the marriage goes well, the payoffs are nowhere near as high for the man as they are for the woman, because moderm marriage is just a modern form of indentured servitude for men.”

Did you not read what I said in that very paragraph? To recap, “On average, married men make more money, live longer and of course have more kids. Marriage is a gamble, but even in a purely worldly sense, the rewards are very high.” In a worldly sense, the exchange seems to be that while marriage saves a lot of women from poverty, what it saves men from is ill-health and early death.

Part of the mechanics of this is that men to be very skittish about seeing the doctor and doing routine medical visits, while women are generally more used to doing routine appointments. I certainly know that one of my wifely duties is to say, “Don’t you think you need to go see the doctor?” whenever my husband has any ailment that he complains about more than a week.

Also, when you put two smart people together, you get better decisions than you would if you had just one smart person making decisions. For instance, if it were up to me, the first thing I’d do if we had any money would be a major house remodel. My husband thinks we should save a certain amount every year toward college expenses and any excess can be saved toward house renovations. That’s a painful thought (it’s going to take a looong time), but I think he’s right. And there have been many cases where I was right in other important cases (for instance, that one of our kids is on the autism spectrum). I also am the one that is the Dave Ramsey nut in the family. My husband is a natural non-spender, but he didn’t have a vision of where our family was going financially.

 

[CesarAugustus]

The only problem is that in the case of a non-virgin, the union would not be special enough for me to warrant such a celebration. Being a woman’s first sexual partner would mean exponentially more to me than the sacrament itself and the opportunity to declare that stuff in public. I would rather retain full control over my financial future than get married to a girl who isn’t a virgin.

Incredible… that contempt for the Sacrament… just terrible.

 

[holy_face]

Most women actually are unattracted to men who are virgins, it is a social stigma these days. Women tend to have the most attraction for men who demonstrate they have options. A virgin male will not be able to do this and will also show lack of confidence and nice guy syndrome which will compound his problems.

Men still and almost always prefer a woman who is chaste, but finding one that is real is like trying to find a unicorn. It is almost universally important for guys, as a high partner count in women is repulsive from both a spiritual and biological point of view.

Therefore I would say it is still beneficial and advantageous for women to remain virgins as long as possible but for men it will be a very tough trial, he will likely spend his earlier years through his 20s without many relationships.

When a man gets in 30s his options open up a lot more but virginity will still be an albatross for the most part.

It’s just the reality of the world we now live in, in traditional times things were a bit different.

 

[on_the_hill]

Most women actually are unattracted to men who are virgins, it is a social stigma these days.

How does a woman know? Or are the references to the “V-Card,” real? Do people these days have to show their V-Card when they go out on dates?

Men still and almost always prefer a woman who is chaste, but finding one that is real is like trying to find a unicorn. It is almost universally important for guys, as a high partner count in women is repulsive from both a spiritual and biological point of view.

Man, when I was dating, I was happy when any woman paid attention to me.

Matter of fact, I fell deeply in love with a woman who was repulsive from a spiritual and biological point of view. It didn’t work out in the end, but it had nothing to do with her repulsiveness. It more or less had to do with her being a headcase.

 

[The_Bucket]

Most women actually are unattracted to men who are virgins, it is a social stigma these days. Women tend to have the most attraction for men who demonstrate they have options. A virgin male will not be able to do this and will also show lack of confidence and nice guy syndrome which will compound his problems.

Men still and almost always prefer a woman who is chaste, but finding one that is real is like trying to find a unicorn. It is almost universally important for guys, as a high partner count in women is repulsive from both a spiritual and biological point of view.

Therefore I would say it is still beneficial and advantageous for women to remain virgins as long as possible but for men it will be a very tough trial, he will likely spend his earlier years through his 20s without many relationships.

When a man gets in 30s his options open up a lot more but virginity will still be an albatross for the most part.

It’s just the reality of the world we now live in, in traditional times things were a bit different.

The reason virginity is a social stigma is not because virginity is seen as bad by women. It’s because, more often than not, a guy is a virgin because of social dysfunction as opposed to virtue. If a woman finds out a guy is a virgin right off the bat, it’s probably because he led with that and that’s a super awkward thing to declare early in a dating relationship.

I was a super awkward guy in high school. In college, I got into better shape, became more confident and was a decently sociable person. I also never, ever talked about my dating/sexual history to anyone other than my closest friends. Acquaintances just assumed I had at least had sex a few times. I wasn’t that awkward anymore! In most cases, I didn’t confirm or deny. It’s not their business. My closest friends were aware of my history and knew it was not because I couldn’t “get” at least one or two girls, but because of my religious beliefs.

I was loud, boisterous and kind of annoying. I still am really, but I’ve mellowed a bit. Maybe less boisterous and annoying, but still loud. That’s OK I guess. Slowly but surely…

At any rate, yeah it’s not the virginity that’s the albatross. It’s the social awkwardness and the ridiculous entitlement “nice guy” thing that you see from folks like enterthewage. He saved himself so he deserves a woman and deserves a virgin. That attitude is repugnant to anyone, male or female.

 

[The_Bucket]

How does a woman know? Or are the references to the “V-Card,” real? Do people these days have to show their V-Card when they go out on dates?

Yeah it’s like those buy nine sandwiches, get ten free cards. Punchcard system. Carry it around and you get a punch for first base, second base and third base. You turn in the card to the person with whom you hit a “home run.” My wife’s got mine and I hers. What, you didn’t get one when you turned 13?

 

[on_the_hill]

In college, I got into better shape, became more confident and was a decently sociable person. I also never, ever talked about my dating/sexual history to anyone other than my closest friends. Acquaintances just assumed I had at least had sex a few times. I wasn’t that awkward anymore! In most cases, I didn’t confirm or deny. It’s not their business.

 

[holy_face]

How does a woman know? Or are the references to the “V-Card,” real? Do people these days have to show their V-Card when they go out on dates?

No you certainly can hide it and it is probably in your best interest to. But eventually you will probably talk about such things and she will probably already have an idea based on how you act, your confidence, neediness etc. A virgin will be over interested in a relationship based on inexperience while women are more attracted to a man who is more aloof.

Man, when I was dating, I was happy when any woman paid attention to me.

Matter of fact, I fell deeply in love with a woman who was repulsive from a spiritual and biological point of view. It didn’t work out in the end, but it had nothing to do with her repulsiveness. It more or less had to do with her being a headcase.

A large partner count usually goes hand in hand with being a headcase.

It is a mistake to be happy when any woman pays attention to you, it shows that you are needy and somewhat desperate and inexperienced. They will instantly have the upper hand and will treat you as such. She was a headcase because she was able to walk all over you.

 

[holy_face]

The reason virginity is a social stigma is not because virginity is seen as bad by women. It’s because, more often than not, a guy is a virgin because of social dysfunction as opposed to virtue. If a woman finds out a guy is a virgin right off the bat, it’s probably because he led with that and that’s a super awkward thing to declare early in a dating relationship.

I was a super awkward guy in high school. In college, I got into better shape, became more confident and was a decently sociable person. I also never, ever talked about my dating/sexual history to anyone other than my closest friends. Acquaintances just assumed I had at least had sex a few times. I wasn’t that awkward anymore! In most cases, I didn’t confirm or deny. It’s not their business. My closest friends were aware of my history and knew it was not because I couldn’t “get” at least one or two girls, but because of my religious beliefs.

I was loud, boisterous and kind of annoying. I still am really, but I’ve mellowed a bit. Maybe less boisterous and annoying, but still loud. That’s OK I guess. Slowly but surely…

At any rate, yeah it’s not the virginity that’s the albatross. It’s the social awkwardness and the ridiculous entitlement “nice guy” thing that you see from folks like enterthewage. He saved himself so he deserves a woman and deserves a virgin. That attitude is repugnant to anyone, male or female.

the awkwardness is a large part of it but it really is still a turnoff to women even if you are otherwise confident, not all women are turned off by it but a significant amount are.

Just because you were confident and were able to chat up females without problems does not mean that they would not have been turned off if you decided to enter sexual relationship with them. You were not having such relationships since you were being chaste.

 

[manualman]

Of all the things people post here, it’s this notion that always rubs me the wrong way. Neither my wife nor I were virgins when we met. Yet we’ve been happily married for almost 20 years. .

The biggest problem with such statements is that one’s “potential in marriage” is entirely subjective, and there is absolutely no way to know whether a virgin marriage is better than a non-virgin marriage.

You’ll note that I nowhere assert that any particular sin in one’s past removes one’s ability to be married. I do assert that it makes it more difficult.

Your statement above essentially reduces to an assertion that this sin does no actual harm. I assert that it does. In fact, that’s pretty much the definition of sin.

I’ll agree that “enterthenewage’s” strange assertion that virginity separated from all other factors is a bizarre and uncatholic litmus test, but I won’t agree with what appears to be your assertion above that sins against chastity do no lasting harm.

 

[manualman]

the awkwardness is a large part of it but it really is still a turnoff to women even if you are otherwise confident, not all women are turned off by it but a significant amount are.

Sounds like a good way of filtering out non-marriage material women to me!

But what do I know, I’ve only been happily married 15 years so far…

 

[holy_face]

virginity is a very good litmus test actually, it shows a lot of things about you. Your ability to make a lasting commitment, your ability to make good judgements, your trustworthiness within marriage, you ability to bond exclusively with husband or wife etc. From a biological perspective men find chastity preferable in women so then can have more assurance that his children will be his, that he is passing on his genes and not being cuckolded and raising another man’s children.

A woman (or man) with a high partner count would be very suspect, it is not uncommon for women these days to have slept with 30-50 guys before they marry and settle down in the 30s, seriously.

You should really marry as young as possible and avoid marrying a women who spent her 20’s “finding herself” and then rushes against the biological clock to find a provider who she settles for.

Same as men that are players, women will find no relief in them, they will not “fix” them and make them good husbands unless they “change” at a young age.

 

[holy_face]

Sounds like a good way of filtering out non-marriage material women to me!

But what do I know, I’ve only been happily married 15 years so far…

definitely true yes

 

[The_Bucket]

the awkwardness is a large part of it but it really is still a turnoff to women even if you are otherwise confident, not all women are turned off by it but a significant amount are.

Oh yes, yes the “demonstration of value” and whatnot. It’s more that it is not the social norm so then one wonders “did other women run away? Why hasn’t he had sex? What am I missing? Am I not good enough?” Being unique catches someone’s eye but being a sign of contradiction to the world can be scary. I get that. But I definitely think the social awkwardness of many male virgins is probably a bigger deal than the actual virginity.

 

[Xantippe]

Blue Eyed Lady said:

“My closest friends and relatives know very little about my marriage, and I know very little about theirs, except whether or not they’re happy.”

Exactly–and sometimes not even then. We’ve all known at least one “perfect couple” that turned out to be anything but.

“Trust me, you’ll find yourself and your views changing a lot as you get to know and love the person you marry. It’s a very unique form of self-discovery.”

Yes!

The Bucket said:

“I’m sure my wife 100 times out of 100 would choose for me to have had premarital sex than be a virgin but also have a pornography addiction that I have to battle every day.”

Exactly.

Lorelei12 said:

“You will also see that people in happy marriages are not generally thinking about what they are getting from it, but rather what they give to their spouse and how they carry one another’s burdens.”

Yes!

CesarAugustus said:

“I get the impression that you value virginity, not for spiritual ones, but for secular/materialistic ones.”

Yes. It is worth remembering that the spiritual value of virginity is not identical to the worldly value of virginity.

The Bucket said:

“The reason virginity is a social stigma is not because virginity is seen as bad by women. It’s because, more often than not, a guy is a virgin because of social dysfunction as opposed to virtue. If a woman finds out a guy is a virgin right off the bat, it’s probably because he led with that and that’s a super awkward thing to declare early in a dating relationship.”

Exactly.

I’d also add that there’s a not irrational fear of accidentally winding up with a gay husband.

“At any rate, yeah it’s not the virginity that’s the albatross. It’s the social awkwardness and the ridiculous entitlement “nice guy” thing that you see from folks like enterthewage. He saved himself so he deserves a woman and deserves a virgin. That attitude is repugnant to anyone, male or female.”

Yes!

holy face said:

“But eventually you will probably talk about such things and she will probably already have an idea based on how you act, your confidence, neediness etc. A virgin will be over interested in a relationship based on inexperience while women are more attracted to a man who is more aloof.”

???

I didn’t have any clue for rather a while that my future husband (who was in his mid-20s at the time) hadn’t dated anybody but me. He was perfectly gentlemanly and I was just plain swept off my feet–he’s so smart and nice and good-looking and he likes ME! (I later learned he’d been getting some email coaching from a Catholic married mother of a large family who suggested such things as combing hair before going on a date.)

 

[holy_face]

Yes “demonstration of value” which is something that is important to women from a biological perspective as well, it is not something she consciously chooses to do. She wants to know if the man is masculine enough to protect her, at an almost instinctual level. Someone who is rejected by other girls is not someone that would make a good protector or good genetic candidate. He may make a good provider though and women will go back and forth between being attracted to these characteristics which are sometimes opposite of each other. Which why women drive men so crazy trying to figure out what they really want. What they really want depends on the time of the month and whether or not she is approaching the years of infertility. During ovulation she wants the strong masculine genetics and then later on she wants more passive provider type. The key to women is being able to possess both qualities.

 

[holy_face]

Blue Eyed Lady said:

holy face said:

“But eventually you will probably talk about such things and she will probably already have an idea based on how you act, your confidence, neediness etc. A virgin will be over interested in a relationship based on inexperience while women are more attracted to a man who is more aloof.”

???

I didn’t have any clue for rather a while that my future husband (who was in his mid-20s at the time) hadn’t dated anybody but me. He was perfectly gentlemanly and I was just plain swept off my feet–he’s so smart and nice and good-looking and he likes ME! (I later learned he’d been getting some email coaching from a Catholic married mother of a large family who suggested such things as combing hair before going on a date.)

People who are strongly religious and value chastity tend to break the mold of typical human behavior. It is when we have no compass that we fall back on our purely animal instincts. But those animal instincts are always there under the surface.

 

[The_Bucket]

People who are strongly religious and value chastity tend to break the mold of typical human behavior. It is when we have no compass that we fall back on our purely animal instincts.

Exactly. Male “animal instincts” is to polygamy and female “animal instincts” is to hypergamy. We are called to channel those instincts toward the good and overcome them to a large extent. They are useful for temporal survival, but our relationship with God makes it clear that temporal survival is not is what is most important.