How important is virginity to people in a new relationship?

[holy_face]

Oh yes, pity the poor men about what they have to deal with. Dude, women wouldn’t be acting this way if men didn’t want them to act this way. Or at least if we didn’t project that we want women to act this way.

No men really follow the female prerogative, woman want the liberated life of having fun in their youth, putting off families to have fun and work on their careers. This is new and is a direct result of feminism, not any type of male movement. Men just adapt to the circumstances. Men had no problem marrying women early in previous generations.
Woman have given them a feminist ultimatum and men have just decided to enjoy the circumstances to the best of their ability. Not that they are right but they certainly don’t see the point in remaining virgins for 10 years while their future wives sleep around for a decade to be strong independent women.

You consistently put all the burden on women. “If women did X, men would do Y. If women were more virtuous, men would have to behave better.” Where’s the leadership by men?! Where’s the men willing to have the cajones to act like good men?

That is because women control the sexual marketplace, they are the ultimate deciders on whether sex happens or it doesn’t.

You’re what, 50-something years old and hanging out on reddit? You are aware, right, that reddit is basically populated by a bunch of angsty teens and 20-somethings who generally have low social status and poor social skills, right? I don’t think you really want to take your cues from 9/11 truthers, gold/bitcoin nuts and people who generally have no idea how to deal with real life. The only thing reddit is good for are the AMAs from interesting people.

I am 43 years old, what is wrong with reddit when it is a subject I am interested in? It is a good resource, it has a great deal of information posted daily that i get a lot out of. There is a lot of garbage in other sections but I don’t read them. You should take a look at the relationships section, and also the polyamory section they have there, confirms what i have been saying about our current culture that people just don’t want to believe.

 

[holy_face]

holy face said:

“that is true but they are still fertile while woman are typically are not, of course younger is better for reproduction for both men and women, but for women the window closes much faster.”

Fertility aside, even men prefer to have children when they are younger. If you have a first child at 45 as a man (which is not really that old), that means that when they graduate from high school, you’ll be 63. By the time they graduate from college (if they do it in four years), you’ll be 67. If there are any younger children, push the date out even further. Fun, fun, fun.

There is a biological clock for men, too–it just ticks a bit more slowly.

yes and my point is that it does tick more slowly which is something that works against the women who wait too long for marriage.

 

[The_Bucket]

There is a biological clock for men, too–it just ticks a bit more slowly.

Is that true? We die earlier and fall apart physically much faster. My knees specifically are going downhill FAST and I’m in pretty good shape actually. I hope they hold together until my grandkids are born. Either that or awesome cyborg legs will be developed.

To your earlier points, I’m very glad I’ve had children in my 20s. I don’t know if I could the sleeping 2 hours at a time and still dragging my backside to work every day thing in my 40s.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

Red Pill is a philosophy based on evolutionary psychology that holds man must maintain the headship in a marriage or relationship, that a relationship based on a dominant female is unstable and usually ends up with the male being dumped for a new more high quality male, an alpha male type. Those that give into female demands too much and let them walk all over them are referred to beta males.

LOL!

I though the “Red Pill” was a reference to The Matrix.

 

[holy_face]

Is that true? We die earlier and fall apart physically much faster. My knees specifically are going downhill FAST and I’m in pretty good shape actually. I hope they hold together until my grandkids are born. Either that or awesome cyborg legs will be developed.

To your earlier points, I’m very glad I’ve had children in my 20s. I don’t know if I could the sleeping 2 hours at a time and still dragging my backside to work every day thing in my 40s.

I am 43 and I do brazilian jiu jitu, weight lifting, running, and circuit training. I am not as good as when i was 20 but I am holding together fine but what we are talking about is the biological clock of fertility, men can be fertile for decades longer than women.

 

[holy_face]

LOL!

I though the “Red Pill” was a reference to The Matrix.

It is, its the origin of the concept I explained it earlier

 

[on_the_hill]

How old are you?

I’m 47, I think. I’d have to do the math. At my age I tend to forget.

As for Alphas and Betas…hmm…I’m built like an Alpha, but my wife married me because I’m reliable, steady…um, reliable (did I say that one?)…charming, dazzlingly handsome, reliable…

My wife would characterize Alphas and Betas as: Guys who are fun to date (Alphas) and guys you marry (Betas).

 

[holy_face]

I’m 47, I think. I’d have to do the math. At my age I tend to forget.

As for Alphas and Betas…hmm…I’m built like an Alpha, but my wife married me because I’m reliable, steady…um, reliable (did I say that one?)…charming, dazzlingly handsome, reliable…

My wife would characterize Alphas and Betas as: Guys who are fun to date (Alphas) and guys you marry (Betas).

You can be both and should be to maximize attraction because women are attracted to alpha during ovulation and beta the rest of time. They need strong masculinity as well as someone who will be there for them. the problem is that if you are always beta they may try to find the alpha somewhere else.

 

[The_Bucket]

No men really follow the female prerogative, woman want the liberated life of having fun in their youth, putting off families to have fun and work on their careers. This is new and is a direct result of feminism, not any type of male movement. Men just adapt to the circumstances. Men had no problem marrying women early in previous generations.

So we’re just a bunch of followers then? Pathetic. And women do not want anything other than what men want. They want to feel connected to other people. They want to express themselves. But, more than men anyway, they want to please people. They want to feel like they’ve fit the proper role. And what society tells them they need to “have it all” or else they’ve failed. Just blaming “feminism” is an out and a sad one at that. If you’re a man and not a follower, you cut through the noise and get people’s attention.

Woman have given them a feminist ultimatum and men have just decided to enjoy the circumstances to the best of their ability. Not that they are right but they certainly don’t see the point in remaining virgins for 10 years while their future wives sleep around for a decade to be strong independent women.

Then again, they are pathetic followers with no spine and, to be frank and kind of vulgar, no actual balls.

That is because women control the sexual marketplace, they are the ultimate deciders on whether sex happens or it doesn’t.

Women have historically been “gatekeepers” to the sexual marketplace because it was the only chip they had. They couldn’t provide for themselves, protect themselves against marauding invaders and they had to consider the fact that they might have children from circumstances like war rape or something. So all they had was sex. Now the playing field is level and all we men are going to do is whine about it? How about, again, actually exercising leadership, cutting through the noise and being, well… men?

Instead of trying to “game the system,” refuse to play. Don’t refuse to play while socially isolating yourself, of course, lest you start to think you “deserve a virgin” or something absurd like that. I didn’t play the game. I just acted like a pretty normal human being, took initiative to ask a pretty girl out on a date and 1.5 years later we were married. IMAGINE THAT. No weird courting thing. No friends with benefits turning into kinda-sorta dating turning into living together turning into marriage at 31 thing either.

Just cut to the chase, be bold and don’t play the stupid game. Refuse to acknowledge its existence. That’s the way to get attention from the right kind of people.

 

[Xantippe]

holyface said:

“No men really follow the female prerogative, woman want the liberated life of having fun in their youth, putting off families to have fun and work on their careers.”

You mean, doing exactly what men have always done?

Shocking.

“This is new and is a direct result of feminism, not any type of male movement. Men just adapt to the circumstances. Men had no problem marrying women early in previous generations.”

The current average age at marriage for women isn’t actually that late–it’s 26. What’s unfortunate is that the average age of a woman at the birth of her first child is 25.

Plus, I think this discussion misses the fact that a huge segment of the population is no longer marrying. Marriage is now either a middle class thing or a religious thing–it’s no longer a given.

 

[TheWarriorMonk]

I am 43 and I do brazilian jiu jitu, weight lifting, running, and circuit training. I am not as good as when i was 20 but I am holding together fine but what we are talking about is the biological clock of fertility, men can be fertile for decades longer than women.

.

I’ve got a few years on you, but same deal. I used to do hardcore weightlifting and distance running, but have backed off on that because I don’t want to damage my body. I’m hardcore in martial arts nowadays. The exercise most definitely helps one sex life.

And at our age, it makes a HUGE difference. I’ve noticed that once people hit their mid-40s, those bad habits catch up with them in a vicious way. I’ve had friends that have already had quadruple bypasses, and a few that have died.

 

[holy_face]

So we’re just a bunch of followers then? Pathetic. And women do not want anything other than what men want. They want to feel connected to other people. They want to express themselves. But, more than men anyway, they want to please people. They want to feel like they’ve fit the proper role. And what society tells them they need to “have it all” or else they’ve failed. Just blaming “feminism” is an out and a sad one at that. If you’re a man and not a follower, you cut through the noise and get people’s attention.

Then again, they are pathetic followers with no spine and, to be frank and kind of vulgar, no actual balls.

Women have historically been “gatekeepers” to the sexual marketplace because it was the only chip they had. They couldn’t provide for themselves, protect themselves against marauding invaders and they had to consider the fact that they might have children from circumstances like war rape or something. So all they had was sex. Now the playing field is level and all we men are going to do is whine about it? How about, again, actually exercising leadership, cutting through the noise and being, well… men?

Instead of trying to “game the system,” refuse to play. Don’t refuse to play while socially isolating yourself, of course, lest you start to think you “deserve a virgin” or something absurd like that. I didn’t play the game. I just acted like a pretty normal human being, took initiative to ask a pretty girl out on a date and 1.5 years later we were married. IMAGINE THAT. No weird courting thing. No friends with benefits turning into kinda-sorta dating turning into living together turning into marriage at 31 thing either.

Just cut to the chase, be bold and don’t play the stupid game. Refuse to acknowledge its existence. That’s the way to get attention from the right kind of people.

I agree and that is why we need our faith, otherwise we degenerate into our default animalistic behaviors, I am not defending what the men are doing I am just explaining why it is happening. I chose not engage this game myself, i did not participate in the hookup culture, it was disgusting to me.

I just witnessed it happening all around me, it was devastating to me psychologically and I have not recovered completely. Red Pill has actually helped me understand human behavior better and has helped me let go of some of the bitterness i had, people are acting in a vacuum of morals and are simply acting in their purest human animalistic behavior, it is almost impossible for them not to because they have no foundation or compass to guide them anymore. I don’t fault them too much because this has been done to them by previous generations.

 

[GEddie]

Is that true? We die earlier and fall apart physically much faster. My knees specifically are going downhill FAST and I’m in pretty good shape actually. I hope they hold together until my grandkids are born. Either that or awesome cyborg legs will be developed.

To your earlier points, I’m very glad I’ve had children in my 20s. I don’t know if I could the sleeping 2 hours at a time and still dragging my backside to work every day thing in my 40s.

The biological clock women love to use as a weapon is not trained on the soma as a whole, but specifically the reproductive mechanism. Yes, she will as a rule live longer but more than half of that life will be “post reproductive.”

By the time a male begins to feel his soma wearing down (knees, breathing capacity, etc), yet feels just as sexual as before, a woman his age will already have seen her procreative capacity almost run out. In that sense alone, the clock runs faster for women.

With regard to the knees, etc, women also do not normally put their somas through physical punishment just to prove themselves the way men often do.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Xantippe]

The Bucket said:

“Is that true? We die earlier and fall apart physically much faster. My knees specifically are going downhill FAST and I’m in pretty good shape actually. I hope they hold together until my grandkids are born. Either that or awesome cyborg legs will be developed.”

Very funny! I’m hoping for awesome cyborg legs (or feet), too–I see a lot of my podiatrist.

It looks like the effect of paternal age on children is still pretty novel–the stuff about autism is a pretty new finding.

on_the_hill said:

“My wife would characterize Alphas and Betas as: Guys who are fun to date (Alphas) and guys you marry (Betas).”

I would rephrase that as “Alphas are guys you are really happy you didn’t marry.” I had a HUGE crush on a boy in 7th grade who was so good looking (he looked like a Greek god with a touch of acne)–and was somehow 15 years old and sitting in a 7th grade science class. I’m really glad I got over having those kind of priorities.

 

[holy_face]

.

I’ve got a few years on you, but same deal. I used to do hardcore weightlifting and distance running, but have backed off on that because I don’t want to damage my body. I’m hardcore in martial arts nowadays. The exercise most definitely helps one sex life.

And at our age, it makes a HUGE difference. I’ve noticed that once people hit their mid-40s, those bad habits catch up with them in a vicious way. I’ve had friends that have already had quadruple bypasses, and a few that have died.

Yea martial arts is great, long distance running is being proven every day to be a bad idea, i generally keep it to no more than 3 miles and work on speed

 

[The_Bucket]

Plus, I think this discussion misses the fact that a huge segment of the population is no longer marrying. Marriage is now either a middle class thing or a religious thing–it’s no longer a given.

This. This right here. Marriage is now a) a capstone achievement and b) something not for the poor. Which is horrible because the poor need marriage more than the middle and upper classes.

 

[holy_face]

For men these days marriage is not a great proposal to be honest with no fault divorce as the norm, all of the divorce and custody laws are stacked against them. it is a huge gamble 50% of couples divorce which means 50% chance you will lose most of your assets as well as custody of your children. Those are not good odds to wager on.

 

[manualman]

For men these days marriage is not a great proposal to be honest with no fault divorce as the norm, all of the divorce and custody laws are stacked against them. it is a huge gamble 50% of couples divorce which means 50% chance you will lose most of your assets as well as custody of your children. Those are not good odds to wager on.

Yeah, if you pick a woman to propose to by throwing darts at a bar that’s probably correct.

But if you marry someone who also practices the faith seriously and has a track record of surrendering her own preferences to God’s in all facets of her life (and you do too), your odds of marital success rocket to about 99% or better.

The catholic church is FAR too modest about this. Among faithful catholics who:

1. Attend mass weekly
2. Go to confession at least monthly
3. Restrain themselves from infidelity (physical or emotional)
4. Have a regular prayer time
5. Don’t use contraception

The divorce rate is under 1%.

Reference for claim: physiciansforlife.org/content/view/193/36/

 

[enterthenewage]

Wow… incredible… do you know the problem a non-practicing Catholic could be for the religious education of children? and she is going to be on mortal sin constantly… that doesn’t bother you?

And worthless? how you can say that?

I get the impression that you value virginity, not for spiritual ones, but for secular/materialistic ones. And, when a Catholic places secularistic concerns over religious ones… is, exasperating. Be it the more common liberal and progressives that put secularistic “culture” and standards above Catholic ones… or what you are doing.

When I was in CCD as a child, even non-religious catholics sent their kids to it, so that wouldn’t be a big issue. The sin status of the relationship would be less anguish for me than a catholic approved relationship with a non-virgin.

This is for enterthenewage:

First of all, it is commendable that you have lived a chaste life thusfar! If you should be so blessed to find the woman you are looking for, I am sure that will mean a lot to her. And you are certainly entitled to your own unique deal breakers.

I don’t have time to pick apart all of the things you have written, but there is one thing I just had to comment on was your vehemently pro-life status. How can someone see certain people as “less valuable” than others and also call himself pro-life? I don’t mean pro-life in the sense that you speak out against and would never perform abortion or euthanasia, etc. I am talking about the underlying reason for why we are called to be pro-life as Christians, which is because it is not for us to judge who is worthy, who is “valuable.” Every person is indeed valuable as we are all created in the image and likeness of God.

I am curious, how can one of your top priorities be “pro-life” when you simultaneously judge humans as more or less “valuable”?

I am not judging whether or not those people will go to heaven or hell. That is obviously god’s job. I am simply judging people for their worth to society and how much I would want that person in my life. Even though certain groups of people are less valuable (and in many cases a net drain) to society, I am not calling for mass executions to wipe them out.

enterthenewage said: Did you not read what I said in that very paragraph? To recap, “On average, married men make more money, live longer and of course have more kids. Marriage is a gamble, but even in a purely worldly sense, the rewards are very high.” In a worldly sense, the exchange seems to be that while marriage saves a lot of women from poverty, what it saves men from is ill-health and early death.

Part of the mechanics of this is that men to be very skittish about seeing the doctor and doing routine medical visits, while women are generally more used to doing routine appointments. I certainly know that one of my wifely duties is to say, “Don’t you think you need to go see the doctor?” whenever my husband has any ailment that he complains about more than a week.

Also, when you put two smart people together, you get better decisions than you would if you had just one smart person making decisions. For instance, if it were up to me, the first thing I’d do if we had any money would be a major house remodel. My husband thinks we should save a certain amount every year toward college expenses and any excess can be saved toward house renovations. That’s a painful thought (it’s going to take a looong time), but I think he’s right. And there have been many cases where I was right in other important cases (for instance, that one of our kids is on the autism spectrum). I also am the one that is the Dave Ramsey nut in the family. My husband is a natural non-spender, but he didn’t have a vision of where our family was going financially.

Yes I did read what you wrote and I will make a rebuttal to each benefit you listed. Married men often have children. That fact forces them to work harder and pursue advancements more aggressively than unmarried men who are only responsible for taking care of themselves. Getting married does not magically make their IQ go up 10 points and start coming up with brilliant business solutions that make them a fortune. The longer life is debatable. It could also be that the guys who are getting married are less anxious and more optimistic about life. Also, even if it does make them live longer, it is only for the minority who are in happy marriages. 50% end in divorce. And the 50% that don’t end in divorce are not all happy marriages either, some people just stay together for the kids. If it’s a marriage, the opposite will be true, a shorter life span. A man can have all the kids he wants with a stable partner outside of marriage.

For men these days marriage is not a great proposal to be honest with no fault divorce as the norm, all of the divorce and custody laws are stacked against them. it is a huge gamble 50% of couples divorce which means 50% chance you will lose most of your assets as well as custody of your children. Those are not good odds to wager on.

:clapping: Finally someone sees the light. Holy face, all of the stuff you mentioned is the reason marriage is not worth it from a financial perspective for the man. With the laws on the books, the women gets 1/2 or more of your stuff, and the lawyers get the rest. The point I am hammering home is I’m not willing to marry an average girl simply because she is a serious catholic because I can get a non-virgin with much less work and commitment. I am willing to go the full 9 yards only if she is a virgin. There has to be something special in it for me for me to take those legal risks. If valuing virginity makes me a shallow person and a fake catholic, well then I guess I’m a shallow person and a fake catholic.

 

[Xantippe]

holy face said:

“For men these days marriage is not a great proposal to be honest with no fault divorce as the norm, all of the divorce and custody laws are stacked against them. it is a huge gamble 50% of couples divorce which means 50% chance you will lose most of your assets as well as custody of your children. Those are not good odds to wager on.”

manualman replied:

“Yeah, if you pick a woman to propose to by throwing darts at a bar that’s probably correct.”

Yep. That 50% includes teenage brides, shotgun weddings, Las Vegas quickie weddings, green card weddings, weddings between prison inmates and their penpals, Hollywood starlets who need to get on the cover of People, and all sorts of similar problematic and totally avoidable situations.

There’s lots of social science on how to do a lot better than 50%. You can improve your chances hugely by waiting a little, doing marriage prep, being college-educated, marrying somebody from an intact home, sharing a religious faith, doing a personal finance class together, being in agreement on money, in-laws, kids, etc.

Divorce does not hit randomly like a bolt of lightning out of the sky, which is what these guys would have you believe.

I don’t think our numbers are quite as good as manualman’s stats, but I think that the odds are pretty darn good if you take a few simple precautions. You don’t need to do every single item on the list, but just being the sort of person who takes trouble is very helpful.

enterthenewage said:

“Married men often have children. That fact forces them to work harder and pursue advancements more aggressively than unmarried men who are only responsible for taking care of themselves.”

That’s right. And we can see from the better health and longer life that it’s not killing them.

“The longer life is debatable. It could also be that the guys who are getting married are less anxious and more optimistic about life.”

Exactly.

“Also, even if it does make them live longer, it is only for the minority who are in happy marriages. 50% end in divorce. And the 50% that don’t end in divorce are not all happy marriages either, some people just stay together for the kids.”

Wait–they’re unhappy, but they’re healthier and living longer? Unpossible. That makes no sense at all.

“If it’s a marriage, the opposite will be true, a shorter life span. A man can have all the kids he wants with a stable partner outside of marriage.”

I know there are Scandinavian countries where that’s true, but it certainly isn’t that realistic in the US. A normal, sane middle class US woman wants to be married before having kids. Plus, what about home ownership? No sensible person is going to want to buy a house with somebody they’re not married to.

Wanting children and homeownership outside of marriage means limiting ones dating to women who are, frankly, nuts.