How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

[Nathan_Wagar]

Thank you Padrej, for your kind words.

"This is where we start to part ways. A protestant would say, “You are already made clean and stand righteous and therefore ARE perfect although you are in a fallen state- thus Grace goes before you, this is why many of Protestants still baptize infants. Others who do not believe in this and only believe in a “believers Baptism” would differ with us both here.”

Duly noted. My point would be that this fallen state that you refer to cannot enter heaven. As such, it still really is a declaration of imputed righteousness, and as such it still needs to be “corrected.” The only real difference here, aside from imputed vs. infused, is that Protestants apply all of the saving grace of the cross in a moment as a declaration, whereas Catholics apply it as a process in a father-son familial relationship, and this saving grace from the cross can continue to be applied after death as you draw nearer God’s presence.

I have the benefit of going to a Catholic Bible study with a deacon in our Church that has a master’s degree in theology. He will also be sponsoring my trip to the Holy Land with my wife

 

[holy_moly]

wasn’t this evidence of Jesus descending into Hell or Limbo to free the righteous who died before His time?

this is why in the Apostle’s Creed we have the line, “and he descended onto hell” or “and he descended onto the dead”

which mans Jesus not only saved granted a path to heaven for the righteous from His time onwards, but also for those who came before His time on earth

Yes, I think you are correct, not hell per se, but to the place where the dead were, before they were provided salvation by Jesus.

 

[Padrej]

Thank you Padrej, for your kind words.

"This is where we start to part ways. A protestant would say, “You are already made clean and stand righteous and therefore ARE perfect although you are in a fallen state- thus Grace goes before you, this is why many of Protestants still baptize infants. Others who do not believe in this and only believe in a “believers Baptism” would differ with us both here.”

Duly noted. My point would be that this fallen state that you refer to cannot enter heaven. As such, it still really is a declaration of imputed righteousness, and as such it still needs to be “corrected.” The only real difference here, aside from imputed vs. infused, is that Protestants apply all of the saving grace of the cross in a moment as a declaration, whereas Catholics apply it as a process in a father-son familial relationship, and this saving grace from the cross can continue to be applied after death as you draw nearer God’s presence.

I have the benefit of going to a Catholic Bible study with a deacon in our Church that has a master’s degree in theology. He will also be sponsoring my trip to the Holy Land with my wife

Great ideas, now the only counter argument you would really have to come up with against Purgatory is: Mark 10:27 when Jesus is asked who can be saved, “with men it is impossible, but with God all things are Possible.” So in other words they are going to say that God is going to allow in whom He wants clean or not because the rich young ruler had kept all the commandment like you Catholics do. so your job would be to counter the argument that “nothing is impossible with God” when it comes to Purgatory as that is the Protestant’s ace in the hole.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Nothing is impossible with God except the eucharist, right? Bad Joke.

Nothing is possible does not mean God can make a stone to heavy for Him to lift. You would be treading on dangerous theological ground with the “nothing is impossible” argument. God cannot deny His character, which is absolute truth. A declaration of righteousness in Protestant theology is a false declaration. There isn’t a way to wiggle out of that. Add to that the fact that God already said nothing unclean would enter heaven, (in opposition to you saying it would be possible, the answer is no, it wouldn’t. God just said so) and now you REALLY can’t wiggle out. God Bless.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

I meant nothing is impossible in the post above. If you see it, keep that in mind. You know what I meant. God Bless.

 

[Padrej]

Nothing is impossible with God except the eucharist, right? Bad Joke.

Nothing is possible does not mean God can make a stone to heavy for Him to lift. You would be treading on dangerous theological ground with the “nothing is impossible” argument. God cannot deny His character, which is absolute truth. A declaration of righteousness in Protestant theology is a false declaration. There isn’t a way to wiggle out of that. Add to that the fact that God already said nothing unclean would enter heaven, (in opposition to you saying it would be possible, the answer is no, it wouldn’t. God just said so) and now you REALLY can’t wiggle out. God Bless.

I agree with you in part. To some Protestants you will need to explain HOW God Isn’t going to allow them into Heaven if THEY believe with everything in them that they are justified through their faith. They will freely admit that nothing unclean can enter Heaven, so there is where the types and shadows argument of the temple and tabernacle system comes in. You eluded to it earlier when you said that you had to be purified before entering the Holy of Holies. YES the temple veil was rent in two when Jesus was on the cross; but their still was that laver with water that blocked the way so that no unclean thing could get past it to get to the ripped veil. All of the 7 “I AM” statements of John’s Gospel refer back somehow to the tabernacle and temple system. Only after the priest washed could he handle the sacrificial blood to enter the holy place or Holy of Holies behind the veil. When the priest today handles the mass, (they used to) wash their hands at least symbolically for this very purpose as they were entering the Holy of Holies to handle the Body and Blood of Christ. Sadly some masses leave that out, the old Latin right did not, there are even “secret prayers” to be said during this washing also. But I digress…
The point I am trying to make is the “ace in the hole” is going to be the Protestant’s last hold out so don’t just think you can wave it away with one line. You HAVE to have a convincing argument to knock the last peg out.
Blessings

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Belief can be “with everything in you” till the cows come home, but there are FAR too many verses where Jesus equates belief with obedience, not merely mental assent. Invincible ignorance can play a part here, I am not God and only He can judge men’s hearts. This argument is veering into other territory, however, so I would point out that when your “ace-in-the-hole” is based off of a false assumption, I don’t need to spend too much time waving it away.

Protestant “ace”: He could let me in, even though I am not righteous.

Nathan’s ace: Sure He could. But in Revelation He said He won’t.

 

[holy_moly]

So then you are saying the Blood of Christ does NOT have the power to cleanse ALL sins. That Christ was NOT the perfect Sacrifice for the whole world not was he the perfect sacrifice? Is that what I hear you saying? So then Purgatory cleanses away the sins NOT covered by the Blood of Christ? Is this what the Catholic church really is saying?

Not all die in a perfect state. In Rev. it says, “nothing clean shall enter”. Those who are unrepented (is that even a word?) cannot be in God’s presence, hence purgatory. Jesus did make reference to it by the way when he said the last penny shall be paid. Even some repented sins must still be paid for. Yes, God forgives them; but yes, pennance must still be paid. I forgave my daughter for disobeying me, but I still grounded her… she still had to ‘pay’ for her ‘sin’. She would also agree that being stuck at home w/ me was purgatory (if not hell)!

 

[carolin_A]

We do not pray for souls in hell and the souls in heaven. Only pray for the ones in Purgatory. But how are we to know , who requires our prayers and who doesn’t. There is no way of knowing if our death relatives have gained entry into heaven or otherwise. In this case, how long after a person dies, should we pray for his or her soul? I still do pray for family and relatives in my daily prayer, who have died a long time ago…

 

[Padrej]

Not all die in a perfect state. In Rev. it says, “nothing clean shall enter”. Those who are unrepented (is that even a word?) cannot be in God’s presence, hence purgatory. Jesus did make reference to it by the way when he said the last penny shall be paid. Even some repented sins must still be paid for. Yes, God forgives them; but yes, pennance must still be paid. I forgave my daughter for disobeying me, but I still grounded her… she still had to ‘pay’ for her ‘sin’. She would also agree that being stuck at home w/ me was purgatory (if not hell)!

This is another excellent point hat is NOT often used to “battle” a Protestant in this debate and would come out of left field. I am glad to see personally that this thread is not using the same tired old scriptures that have been used for years. Those are the ones that are expected to come up. I know that some may have been taught to “do battle” this way so to speak. If examples like this are used and the other instances are pulled your stance is all the stronger and cannot be knocked down.
When I teach in my seminary class (I mostly teach Protestants) I teach them to debate by knowing what the other side is going to counter their argument by; so I have one person play say a Catholic, another a Presbyterian, another (God Forgive me) a Baptist, another a Methodist etc so that they each come to the table with a differing theological point to debate. This way their faith will be stronger and it forced them to know their opponent and what tactic they will use and their theology as well.
BTW I LOVED the line about your daughter thinking her punishment was purgatory. That is classic. You should consider using that illustration.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is another excellent point hat is NOT often used to “battle” a Protestant in this debate and would come out of left field. I am glad to see personally that this thread is not using the same tired old scriptures that have been used for years. Those are the ones that are expected to come up. I know that some may have been taught to “do battle” this way so to speak. If examples like this are used and the other instances are pulled your stance is all the stronger and cannot be knocked down.
When I teach in my seminary class (I mostly teach Protestants) I teach them to debate by knowing what the other side is going to counter their argument by; so I have one person play say a Catholic, another a Presbyterian, another (God Forgive me) a Baptist, another a Methodist etc so that they each come to the table with a differing theological point to debate. This way their faith will be stronger and it forced them to know their opponent and what tactic they will use and their theology as well.
BTW I LOVED the line about your daughter thinking her punishment was purgatory. That is classic. You should consider using that illustration.

I haven’t read the entire thread, so forgive me if I’m repeating something.

The idea of temporal punishment for sin is clearly illustrated in scripture. For example, after his sin with Bathsheba, David came to his senses and repented. He was forgiven, but there was a temporal consequence: the child died.

 

[Des]

In this case, how long after a person dies, should we pray for his or her soul? I still do pray for family and relatives in my daily prayer, who have died a long time ago…

Personally, I’ll continue to say prayers for my deceased relatives till the day I die since as you said, there is no real way of knowing.

I was also taught to say “May God have mercy on your soul and all the souls in Purgatory”. So my little prayer at the end would include everyone there and not just a specific person.

 

[holy_moly]

This is another excellent point hat is NOT often used to “battle” a Protestant in this debate and would come out of left field. I am glad to see personally that this thread is not using the same tired old scriptures that have been used for years. Those are the ones that are expected to come up. I know that some may have been taught to “do battle” this way so to speak. If examples like this are used and the other instances are pulled your stance is all the stronger and cannot be knocked down.

When I teach in my seminary class (I mostly teach Protestants) I teach them to debate by knowing what the other side is going to counter their argument by; so I have one person play say a Catholic, another a Presbyterian, another (God Forgive me) a Baptist, another a Methodist etc so that they each come to the table with a differing theological point to debate. This way their faith will be stronger and it forced them to know their opponent and what tactic they will use and their theology as well.
BTW I LOVED the line about your daughter thinking her punishment was purgatory. That is classic. You should consider using that illustration.

Thank you, I find your posts refreshing & stimulating

 

[Padrej]

Personally, I’ll continue to say prayers for my deceased relatives till the day I die since as you said, there is no real way of knowing.

I was also taught to say “May God have mercy on your soul and all the souls in Purgatory”. So my little prayer at the end would include everyone there and not just a specific person.

If my memory serves me there used to be a prayer used in the old Latin rite that said something like this, “May the souls of the faithful departed find eternal rest, may light perpetual shine upon them.” I think that kind of covers the whole thing as well. The Anglicans used this as well and other Protestants that tended to be somewhat liturgical use a version of this. Interestingly Even the current Methodist liturgy for funerals has prayers for the dead but yet they do not believe in Purgatory.

BTW My Catholic Aunt prayed for one month for my Presbyterian Grandmother to get out of Purgatory. Is that the penalty for Presbyterians? only one month?

 

[Padrej]

This last post has got me wondering. Who sets the time limits as to the length of time one must pray for a soul in Purgatory? If my Grandmother was prayed for who was a Presbyterian for a month, who set that time limit? Who becomes the judge to say person “x” lived a good life so you should only have to pray a week while person “y” lived a far more sinful way so they need say six months?
Does that not smack of taking the place of God in judging one person more or less righteous over another when we do not know how penitent the person was on their deathbed? I have always wanted to know the answer to this and thus far no Catholic has been able to answer me other than “I don’t know.” Why don’t you? If you went to confession and Father Joe gave you say five Hail Marys and you are “home free” and the next guy has to do a couple of novenas as penance how do we know what sin merits what amount of time in purgatory?

If you are SO SURE on every thing else why can’t you be sure on this?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Honestly, Padrej, the correct answer IS I don’t know. “Days in purgatory” is theological speculation (bad theological speculation), and you must notice that it has never been made dogma. I seriously doubt it ever will either.

Also, it would not follow under the category of Judgement (sorry to nitpick) because Purgatory implies that the Judgement by God has already been made.

I would point out, however, that having the ability to “bind and loose” would seem to give priests the prerogative to dispense grace, and determine the correct penance on an individual basis, and this will be bound in heaven as well. Whether the man down the street said 5 hail Mary’s or whether I had to say an hour straight of “Our Fathers” would be irrelevant. Jesus’ parable of his unequal payment to the workers comes to mind, and I think with a bit of trimming I can apply it here

As for my own parish, the priest seems to be a firm believer in spending time in front of the Blessed Sacrament as opposed to anything else, and I can’t say I blame him. It has done wonders for my marriage…

 

[holy_moly]

QUOTE=Padrej;5810413]This last post has got me wondering. Who sets the time limits as to the length of time one must pray for a soul in Purgatory? If my Grandmother was prayed for who was a Presbyterian for a month, who set that time limit? Who becomes the judge to say person “x” lived a good life so you should only have to pray a week while person “y” lived a far more sinful way so they need say six months?
Does that not smack of taking the place of God in judging one person more or less righteous over another when we do not know how penitent the person was on their deathbed? I have always wanted to know the answer to this and thus far no Catholic has been able to answer me other than “I don’t know.” Why don’t you? If you went to confession and Father Joe gave you say five Hail Marys and you are “home free” and the next guy has to do a couple of novenas as penance how do we know what sin merits what amount of time in purgatory?

If you are SO SURE on every thing else why can’t you be sure on this?

I’d say one month covers grandmothers, regardless of denomination

 

[bookgirl32]

This last post has got me wondering. Who sets the time limits as to the length of time one must pray for a soul in Purgatory? If my Grandmother was prayed for who was a Presbyterian for a month, who set that time limit? Who becomes the judge to say person “x” lived a good life so you should only have to pray a week while person “y” lived a far more sinful way so they need say six months?

There is no “list of time limits”. One could arbitrarily pick a month because they felt compelled to pick a month. There may be some prayers that could be tied to some sort of indulgence but, even if there are and I’m not sure, they are not a set in stone rule and are not required for any sort of prayer for the dead. No one knows how long the process of cleansing is for any individual, or even if that individual is in purgatory. That is why the previous posters talk of praying for their deceased loved ones until they themselves are dead. They just don’t know. If they are in Heaven already and the prayer is “not needed”, it also did no harm and in fact is still prayer that God would consider pleasing.

Does that not smack of taking the place of God in judging one person more or less righteous over another when we do not know how penitent the person was on their deathbed?

The situation you set up would, yes, but it doesn’t really exist in anything other than misunderstood ideas of Purgatory, so it’s a non issue.

I have always wanted to know the answer to this and thus far no Catholic has been able to answer me other than “I don’t know.” Why don’t you? If you went to confession and Father Joe gave you say five Hail Marys and you are “home free” and the next guy has to do a couple of novenas as penance how do we know what sin merits what amount of time in purgatory?

You know, I honestly do not know if the penance the priest gives you is known by the priest to be “exactly” the amount of penance needed for that particular sin. Again, there is not a “list” for all possible sins, it depends on the cofessee and the confessor. But, you’re looking at penance the wrong way altogether. Even though people in the process of purgatory are suffering, in a sense, because they are not yet in God’s presence, it is simply the suffering of waiting, and knowing that your actions caused it. You can “see” Heaven but you’re not there yet, so it’s hard. But it is not “Hell for a time” before you get to Heaven. It is suffering with a purpose. People in Purgatory are assured of Heaven, so they are happy in that assurance.

The cleansing of penance is not a “get of jail” I’m “home free” card. It does cleanse the temporal effects of sin, but it’s also good for us! Do you look at prayer as something that you have to muddle through in order to get a result out of it? I hope not. Penance is spending healing, loving time with God. It benefits us in every way possible and I personally love my time spent in penance after confession. In the sense that it is dealing with the consequence of sin you can look at it as a punishment. The act of penance itself is a healing, loving, good thing. Think how much you enjoy taking a nice, long, hot shower after getting filthy working outside in the sun all day.

 

[bookgirl32]

holy_moly:
I’d say one month covers grandmothers, regardless of denomination

Grandmothers go straight through, you didn’t know that?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Honestly, Padrej, the correct answer IS I don’t know. “Days in purgatory” is theological speculation (bad theological speculation), and you must notice that it has never been made dogma. I seriously doubt it ever will either.

Also, it would not follow under the category of Judgement (sorry to nitpick) because Purgatory implies that the Judgement by God has already been made.

I would point out, however, that having the ability to “bind and loose” would seem to give priests the prerogative to dispense grace, and determine the correct penance on an individual basis, and this will be bound in heaven as well. Whether the man down the street said 5 hail Mary’s or whether I had to say an hour straight of “Our Fathers” would be irrelevant. Jesus’ parable of his unequal payment to the workers comes to mind, and I think with a bit of trimming I can apply it here

As for my own parish, the priest seems to be a firm believer in spending time in front of the Blessed Sacrament as opposed to anything else, and I can’t say I blame him. It has done wonders for my marriage…

Edit- Oops double post.