What I am asking is to seriously ponder those points that I am making on Binding and Loosing. If God did not give the Church limited power why are we acting as if that power IS limited? Does the Bible not say that if two even come into agreement on something on earth that IT SHALL BE DONE in Heaven. We are talking real power here. Jesus gave the 70 power to cast out demons and even they were subject to them and then he turns and say “you will do even greater things when I am gone,” and what do we do; we act as if the Devil still rules us.As far as Kosher foods go, didn’t God tell Peter “Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean” ( Acts 10:10-15, 11:5-10 )? This applies not only to Gentiles but to those Christian Jews also, and since Jesus fulfilled the law and gave us two new commandments that covered the old law,
John 13: 34 Love one another as I have loved you (the new commandment)
and also since He gave us the power to bind and loose, we do not have to keep kosher or worship on Saturday.
** So if he gave us the power to Bind and Loose the law the he only fulfilled and did not change** then why can’t we declare that someone is “out of purgatory?” Why Can it not work both ways IF we (the Church) have that power??? Something to think on. Why cant’ we plead for the mercy of God because God IS merciful. Why cant we plead for the grace of God because God is full of that also and then have it declared just as in an absolution??? That is my question. Are Catholics saying that the Church’s power of binding and loosing is limited when Jesus declared that ALL power in heaven and earth is mine and then he turns and gives it to the Church???
Besides, for what I know of Hebrew, Sabbath means rest, not Saturday. God Bless.
Saturday was the 7th day of the Jewish week so it was considered the “sabbath” or day of rest because God also rested.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
I hardly think I misunderstood her, She IS a died in the wool Roman Catholic but realizes that in order to reach all you have to be all. St. Paul said “to the Greek I became a Greek, to the Jew a Jew” Are you going to accuse her of going against scripture as well??? The prison she ministers to has a Large Muslim population so in order to convert them you must introduce them to Jesus and get them to believe in Jesus first, THEN you can get them to start praying the rosary and doing the other things. You don’t go in with a priest, do a mass, “Fence the altar” so that no non Catholics can come and then say, “do you want to know this Jesus that you just saw us partaking of that you can’t have until you are one of us and rid of your dirty Arab beliefs and convert?” I am sorry you will not convert anyone that way. I have ran into far too many Roman Catholics who think that that is the way to do prison ministry and then wonder why they never get a convert. It is only after you teach them of Jesus that you can teach them to be a Catholic.I want to paint this on my forehead so I never have to say it again
The kind of suffering one goes through in Purgatory is not the same kind of suffering as that in Hell. It’s not a mini-version of Hell before Heaven. It is suffering because you are not yet in Heaven, but you know that’s where you’re going to end up. It’s a suffering filled with love and anticipation, you know, 100%, that you’re headed towards Heaven. It is simply cleaning. Can we get that straight? The sin is gone, the stain from sin is not gone. YOu’re jumping for joy that you made it to Purgatory and at the same time you’re suffering saying, “Shoot, if I just wouldn’t have committed that one, or that one, or that one, I would be cleaner and would already be there.”
I am sorry, as in earlier posts other Catholics have commented that this is not total freedom as you are paying the price for a sin committed or paying the penalty. kind of like being grounded. When I was gounded as a kid that was not freedom of any kind.
Because you’re there, and there is absolutely nothing left for you to do. Freedom! Freedom doesn’t equal Heaven.
It made us able to be clean in God’s grace. Before His sacrifice, that possibility didn’t exist. He doesn’t just cover our sins. I believe that thinking that way demeans what He did.
**Are you now saying then that the blood of Christ DOES NOT cleanse sin? that is exactly what you are saying if you believe this with all due respect. I never said Jesus’ sacrifice “covered” our sins, John the Baptist said "behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. **
Yes. But again, free does not equal being in Heaven. You’re also “free” in Purgatory in the sense that your work is done. You don’t cleanse yourself. You don’t stay in Purgatory voluntarily.
** If you are free in that your work is done I suppose I can agree there.**
Protestants and Catholics look at the word “saved” very very differently. To us, it is a process, not a one time thing.
To us it is a process as well that starts with the one time confession, or if Baptized as an infant, the faith that you were raised in. So I don’t see what you are getting at.
Maybe you misunderstood her? She may be more concerned with getting them to believe in Jesus first. To her, if she is Catholic, that is part of but not all of being saved.
Whoa whoa whoa calm down. I was agreeing with what you wrote about your aunt, only calling attention to the fact that if your aunt is Catholic, she probably thinks of getting them to believe in Jesus in the first place as part of becoming CAtholic, not separate from or a pre-cursor to. What I didn’t say is that if they don’t finish that that they would not be “saved”. Jesus is part of Catholicism, being a Christian is part of Catholicism. You can still be Christian and not be Catholic (although I sincerely hope that many will be).
You don’t know how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? As many as they want to on the dance night?
Of course ‘time’ is different after death on earth. All souls in purgatory are heaven-bound & I believe that the ‘place’ of purgatory will cease to be upon the coming of Christ, at which time the ‘inmates’ are all freed! In the meantime the time served is between them & God & can be mitigated by prayer, fasting, acts of charity etc.Baptist angels don’t dance though.
Why do you insist on making it “paying a price” when we have stated over and over that it is not. Being dirty because of a stain of sin is a consequence, yes, but the price for the sin has been paid. Period.
NO!!!
This was the original wording:
Forgiven. And again, nothign bad about your aunt, I promise.
OK this in interesting. Time can be mitigated by Prayer fasting and acts of Charity; Now reconcile this with “each must work out his OWN salvation with fear and trembling.” This is another concept that I have never had fully explained yet. If we are each responsible for our own salvation yet, I can do an act of charity to get another person out of Purgatory? Does it work that way with salvation too??? Can I ride mom and dad’s coat tails into heaven if mom and dad are good Catholics or Protestants but yet I never darken the door of the church, can they “earn my way” in if I die before they do?
John 8:36 “If the Son of man makes you free you are free indeed.”
So then, in the case of my sister who has left the faith, you are saying that through my prayers I can for lack of better words “pray her in to heaven.”
From the Catechism
Fair enough. I wont glib. You have answered me point for point.
Bookgrl32 said:Catholics never said purgatory wasn’t punishment, Padrej. We said it wasn’t JUDGEMENT. Please, please stop confusing the two. This, again, has already been covered in the OT examples and my exegesis of Corinthians. We’re starting to go in circles. It’s like you enjoy my points, but don’t want to let the implications set in. God forbid you become CATHOLIC
He’s right, I did say that. And about ten minutes after I posted it I thought, “shoot, why did I say it like that?” You’re right, it does say that in the catechism. It is my fault for my choice of wording. I was trying to illustrate the point that it is not a payment. It is first and foremost a cleansing, it is a punishment in that it is a consequence of our own actions. It is a punishment we bring on ourselves. It is not a punishment in the form of a payment for sin. But again, I used the word.
. Maybe Nathan or someone else can better clarify what I meant, or correct me where I was wrong.What does that even mean? You seem to be saying that He is above and beyond holding to what He Himself set up.
