How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

[Randy_Carson]

What I am asking is to seriously ponder those points that I am making on Binding and Loosing. If God did not give the Church limited power why are we acting as if that power IS limited? Does the Bible not say that if two even come into agreement on something on earth that IT SHALL BE DONE in Heaven. We are talking real power here. Jesus gave the 70 power to cast out demons and even they were subject to them and then he turns and say “you will do even greater things when I am gone,” and what do we do; we act as if the Devil still rules us.

These are different things. You did not personally receive the keys from Jesus, Peter did.

Now, when you and a couple of your homeboys get together for prayer, Jesus may or may not answer your prayer. If He does not, that says more about you than it does about Him.

However, Jesus gave the Apostles (and Peter in particular) HIS authority - the same authority with which the Father had sent Him, and you’re right…it is awesome. This is why you should stay very, very close to the Catholic Church. In fact, you should be just inside the doors at the very least.

But lest you think this is just the personal opinion of some Catholic apologist-wannabee harping away on the Internet, consider what these noted Protestant scholars and study references have concluded:

Protestant Scholars on the Keys of the Kingdom

W.F. Albright

“In commenting upon Matthew 16 and Jesus giving to Peter the keys of the kingdom, Isaiah 22:15 and following undoubtedly lies behind this saying. The keys are the symbol of authority and DeVoe rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vicar, the master of the house, the chamberlain of the royal household of ancient Israel.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

“It is of considerable importance, that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are discussed, the symbol of the keys is absent, since the saying applies in these instances to a wider circle. The role of Peter as steward of the kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority as was the case of the Old Testament chamberlain who held the keys.” (ibid.)

Oscar Cullman

“In Matthew 16:19 it is presupposed that Christ is the master of the house, who has the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, with which to open to those who wish to come in. Just as in Isaiah 22:22 the Lord lays the keys of the house of David on the shoulders of his servant Eliakim, so Jesus commits to Peter the keys of His house, the Kingdom of Heaven, and thereby installs him as administrator of the house.” (Peter: Disciple, Apostle, Martyr, 1953).

R.T. France

“These terms (binding and loosing) thus refer to a teaching function, and more specifically one of making halakhic pronouncements (i.e. relative to laws not written down in Jewish Scriptures but based on an oral interpretation of them) which are binding on the people of God. In that case, Peter’s ‘power of the keys’ declared in (Matt) 16:19 is not so much that of a doorkeeper, who decides who may or may not be admitted, but that of the steward whose keys of office enable him to regulate the affairs of the household” (Matthew: Evangelist and Teacher, 1989, 247).

Gerhardt Meier

“Nowadays, a broad consensus has emerged which, in accordance with the words of the text applies the promise to Peter as a person. On this point liberal and conservative theologians agree…Matthew 16:18 ought not to be interpreted as a local church. The church in Matthew 16:18 is the universal entity, namely the people of God. There is an increasing consensus now that this verse concerning the power of the keys is talking about the authority to teach and to discipline, including even to absolve sins.” (The End of the Historical Critical Method, 58-60).

The Anchor Bible Commentary

“By conferring the power to bind and loose upon church leadership, Jesus authorizes it to interpret the Scriptures and establish norms for Christian behaviour” (vol 1)

The Interpreter’s Bible

"The keys of the kingdom would be permitted to the chief steward in the royal household and with them goes plenary authority, unlimited power, total. Post- apostolic Christianity is now beginning to ascribe to the Apostles the prerogatives of Jesus."

---

Whoa, Dude!

 

[Randy_Carson]

It is only after you teach them of Jesus that you can teach them to be a Catholic.

In order to teach them fully about Jesus, we must teach them Catholicism because that is the Church the He founded.

Otherwise, they might as well be Protestants.

 

[Padrej]

What does that even mean? You seem to be saying that He is above and beyond holding to what He Himself set up.

I will try and explain.
We like to put some limits on God so that our finite minds can understand Him. Just when we think we have God figured out, He changes the boundaries. Think when you were a kid, you probably though the world was no bigger than your small corner, the older you got and the more you explored the world the larger your world became. The same with God. When I was young I had a preconceived notion of who God was because of who my parents were. My father was strict and if stepped out of line you got it, the church I was raised was very similar in teaching. I though (when I was growing up) that if I stepped out of line God was going to get me. As I got older and matured in my faith my views of God also changed when I realized that god was a merciful loving and forgiving “daddy” type. You see I had a “father” growing up, I did not have a “dad.”
God has chosen to revel Himself through the Bible. But is He more than this? I believe so. When John saw the vision of the Glorified Christ in Revelation he uses words “like” “as” “as if” because he was seeing what no human eye could comprehend so he put them in words that he could come close with. It would be like asking George Washington to come forward in time to our day and ask him to describe a TV. How would he do it? He would probably use words “like a painting that moves and speaks.” I hope you get the picture here I am trying to make. Even the vision of Ezekiel and Isaiah of God is full of imagery as they could not come close to describing Him so we know that there is something more to God that what is already in the Bible.

One time I really blew my seminary students out of the water because they kept telling me that “God does not change and cannot change” and I had them look at a couple of passages one from Genesis and one from Exodus that says “so God repented.” And I asked them If God cannot change how can he “repent” because He did not do what he was going to do. in order to “repent” you have to totally change direction and mind, that is the literal meaning in Greek and Hebrew both. That is why I pose some of the questions to some of you regarding God and Purgatory regarding the time spent. Can’t God Wave that time? He changed his mind about destroying other things, can’t he cleanse you if He pleases. He took a hot coal and cleansed Isaiah by touching only one part, his lips. He made Moses do only one thing, remove his shoes. He only washed the feet of the 12. That is why I ask that you think a little different.

 

[Padrej]

These are different things. You did not personally receive the keys from Jesus, Peter did.

Now, when you and a couple of your homeboys get together for prayer, Jesus may or may not answer your prayer. If He does not, that says more about you than it does about Him.

However, Jesus gave the Apostles (and Peter in particular) HIS authority - the same authority with which the Father had sent Him, and you’re right…it is awesome. This is why you should stay very, very close to the Catholic Church. In fact, you should be just inside the doors at the very least.

But lest you think this is just the personal opinion of some Catholic apologist-wannabee harping away on the Internet, consider what these noted Protestant scholars and study references have concluded:

Protestant Scholars on the Keys of the Kingdom

W.F. Albright

“In commenting upon Matthew 16 and Jesus giving to Peter the keys of the kingdom, Isaiah 22:15 and following undoubtedly lies behind this saying. The keys are the symbol of authority and DeVoe rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vicar, the master of the house, the chamberlain of the royal household of ancient Israel.” (The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

“It is of considerable importance, that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are discussed, the symbol of the keys is absent, since the saying applies in these instances to a wider circle. The role of Peter as steward of the kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority as was the case of the Old Testament chamberlain who held the keys.” (ibid.)

Oscar Cullman

“In Matthew 16:19 it is presupposed that Christ is the master of the house, who has the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, with which to open to those who wish to come in. Just as in Isaiah 22:22 the Lord lays the keys of the house of David on the shoulders of his servant Eliakim, so Jesus commits to Peter the keys of His house, the Kingdom of Heaven, and thereby installs him as administrator of the house.” (Peter: Disciple, Apostle, Martyr, 1953).

R.T. France

“These terms (binding and loosing) thus refer to a teaching function, and more specifically one of making halakhic pronouncements (i.e. relative to laws not written down in Jewish Scriptures but based on an oral interpretation of them) which are binding on the people of God. In that case, Peter’s ‘power of the keys’ declared in (Matt) 16:19 is not so much that of a doorkeeper, who decides who may or may not be admitted, but that of the steward whose keys of office enable him to regulate the affairs of the household” (Matthew: Evangelist and Teacher, 1989, 247).

Gerhardt Meier

“Nowadays, a broad consensus has emerged which, in accordance with the words of the text applies the promise to Peter as a person. On this point liberal and conservative theologians agree…Matthew 16:18 ought not to be interpreted as a local church. The church in Matthew 16:18 is the universal entity, namely the people of God. There is an increasing consensus now that this verse concerning the power of the keys is talking about the authority to teach and to discipline, including even to absolve sins.” (The End of the Historical Critical Method, 58-60).

The Anchor Bible Commentary

“By conferring the power to bind and loose upon church leadership, Jesus authorizes it to interpret the Scriptures and establish norms for Christian behaviour” (vol 1)

The Interpreter’s Bible

"The keys of the kingdom would be permitted to the chief steward in the royal household and with them goes plenary authority, unlimited power, total. Post- apostolic Christianity is now beginning to ascribe to the Apostles the prerogatives of Jesus."

---

Whoa, Dude!

Don’t let the Protestant title fool you; I am closer than what you may think.

What I war referring to I the binding and loosing statements was NOT from a protestant view but questioning why the Catholic Church is not using the power given to it. If the Power was given to it to bind and loose it should also have the power to say “those souls are also cleansed from all stains in the name of Christ” and it shall be done. That has already been revealed in scripture that it is possible to do so why not do it?

 

[Javl]

Don’t let the Protestant title fool you; I am closer than what you may think.

What I war referring to I the binding and loosing statements was NOT from a protestant view but questioning why the Catholic Church is not using the power given to it. If the Power was given to it to bind and loose it should also have the power to say “those souls are also cleansed from all stains in the name of Christ” and it shall be done. That has already been revealed in scripture that it is possible to do so why not do it?

In reading all these posts I find that I am really outclassed in my responses ( I am no theologian ), and I have learned very much from both sides. I pray that God Bless you all.

As for your question padrej, the Church can not use that power since the placement of souls in Purgatory is the result of judgement, and judgement belongs to God alone. By
means of our prayers and indulgences ( which is within the Church’s power ) we plead
the case(s) for the souls that are in Purgatory asking God to remit part, if not all of His
sentence, and we believe that He does. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[bookgirl32]

I will try and explain.
We like to put some limits on God so that our finite minds can understand Him. Just when we think we have God figured out, He changes the boundaries. Think when you were a kid, you probably though the world was no bigger than your small corner, the older you got and the more you explored the world the larger your world became. The same with God. When I was young I had a preconceived notion of who God was because of who my parents were. My father was strict and if stepped out of line you got it, the church I was raised was very similar in teaching. I though (when I was growing up) that if I stepped out of line God was going to get me. As I got older and matured in my faith my views of God also changed when I realized that god was a merciful loving and forgiving “daddy” type. You see I had a “father” growing up, I did not have a “dad.”

God has chosen to revel Himself through the Bible. But is He more than this? I believe so. When John saw the vision of the Glorified Christ in Revelation he uses words “like” “as” “as if” because he was seeing what no human eye could comprehend so he put them in words that he could come close with. It would be like asking George Washington to come forward in time to our day and ask him to describe a TV. How would he do it? He would probably use words “like a painting that moves and speaks.” I hope you get the picture here I am trying to make. Even the vision of Ezekiel and Isaiah of God is full of imagery as they could not come close to describing Him so we know that there is something more to God that what is already in the Bible.

One time I really blew my seminary students out of the water because they kept telling me that “God does not change and cannot change” and I had them look at a couple of passages one from Genesis and one from Exodus that says “so God repented.” And I asked them If God cannot change how can he “repent” because He did not do what he was going to do. in order to “repent” you have to totally change direction and mind, that is the literal meaning in Greek and Hebrew both. That is why I pose some of the questions to some of you regarding God and Purgatory regarding the time spent. Can’t God Wave that time? He changed his mind about destroying other things, can’t he cleanse you if He pleases. He took a hot coal and cleansed Isaiah by touching only one part, his lips. He made Moses do only one thing, remove his shoes. He only washed the feet of the 12. That is why I ask that you think a little different.

First of all, I think you believe in absolute truth. I also think that you believe that God has explicitly revealed to us this truth. Can you verify that before I go on here?

 

[Padrej]

In reading all these posts I find that I am really outclassed in my responses ( I am no theologian ), and I have learned very much from both sides. I pray that God Bless you all.

As for your question padrej, the Church can not use that power since the placement of souls in Purgatory is the result of judgement, and judgement belongs to God alone. By
means of our prayers and indulgences ( which is within the Church’s power ) we plead
the case(s) for the souls that are in Purgatory asking God to remit part, if not all of His
sentence, and we believe that He does. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I too have enjoyed our discussions, they bless me and they sharpen my skills. I would not call your answers outclassed by any stretch of the imagination brother.

Interesting way to answer that question. Finally somebody who has come up with a direct answer. I do realize that Purgatory is the result of God’s judgment and the time spent is for God alone, But I am also looking at this from the standpoint that the priest has the power of absolution. The way that I have been taught is that after the penance the absolution takes full effect. NOW, here is another situation. At the Battle of Gettysburg, Fr. Corby gave the Irish Brigade “conditional absolution” so that if they died in battle their sins were totally absolved. Now in other posts It was explained that “yeah but you sin after confession,” my point is: If those chaps in the Irish Brigade who died with absolution meaning they are having a clean slate, do you now have Purgatory for them?
It is my understanding of Absolution that it wipes the slate clean. YES don’t go round with the paying the penalty bit, I know I know. I guess what my problem then is absolution then really does nothing but tell you the sin is gone, the problem I am having a hard time with and maybe some one can help we with here is why harp on the guilt side with penance?
Let me explain. The illustration was used of the parable of the unforgiving steward that owed and the phrase used to justify Purgatory was “you will not be let out until the last penny was paid.” The problem was in the parable the king had completely forgiven the debt of the first so that there was NO penalty. That was what God does because the reply was “you should have had mercy because I completely forgave you.” Because of the Un-forgiveness the man was to be jailed till the last penny was paid.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

The Catholic Church uses the keys as the Holy Spirit sees fit to move Her. Think of it as God “protecting His interests.”

I do think out of the box quite frequently. The simple fact that the Bible says “and God changed His mind.” The fact that God apparently presented David with two future options in the OT, and David’s choice would alter history. Yet there are also passages showing How Yahweh changes not. So really, you can drive yourself nuts thinking about the relationship between human free will, divine foreknowledge, and how God experiences time and yet is outside of it as we understand it.

Now this, my friend, is where YOU need to think outside of the box. Why do Protestants seem so intent on thinking that Jesus suffered so we don’t have to? Why does salvation automatically mean heaven?

The end result of salvation is, indeed, heaven, but that is based on our hope in the resurrection since we have been baptized into Christ’s death. Salvation really means exchanging slavery to sin for slavery to Christ. And Christ says pick up your cross. God is a Father that chastises and disciplines us into perfection. The merits of His son are applied in life and after, AS LONG AS we are part of the family.

WE ARE NOT ANGELS. WE ARE NOT SPIRITUAL BEINGS. It is BECAUSE of our flesh and our fallen nature that salvation is a process. If we were the angels, then yes, protestants, we would be eternally secure after our decision, or eternally damned. But guess what? We’re not. This entire life is our test, to show God that we will always struggle towards Him. And as long as we die in Him, He will still be our Father, and sometimes Daddy’s gotta take out the belt.

Christ didn’t die to necessarily take away suffering, because God makes it clear that He uses suffering. Christ died to make our suffering mean something. 99% of Protestant issues stem not from purgatory, it’s because they not only want to believe that Christ died to save them, they want to believe that Christ made it EASY. That’s isn’t how God rolls.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

And to answer your question above, yes, God completely forgives you. But we still are wounded ontologically from the fall. Concupiscence can’t enter heaven Padrej. If God doesn’t fix us here, He will. And it might have to hurt, because I imagine residual sin in the presence of utter Holiness will hurt a bit. The fact that the choices we made are keeping us just that little bit from God as they are refined will hurt. But the beatific vision is worth it.

 

[Padrej]

First of all, I think you believe in absolute truth. I also think that you believe that God has explicitly revealed to us this truth. Can you verify that before I go on here?

There are some absolute truths. God has revealed to us His truths. Do I think there Is more yet to be revealed? YES
1 John 3 :2 “It has not yet been revealed to us what we shall be, but we know when HE is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” In that there are more things yet to be revealed.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

“There are some absolute truths. God has revealed to us His truths. Do I think there Is more yet to be revealed? YES.”

And yet when the Catholic Church defines dogma through the years, we get hammered. How deliciously ironic

The old saying “God is not bound by His sacraments” applies here. God can always work outside of His Church as He sees fit. But His Church speaks truth, and truth does not change. How He chooses to apply the truth outside of the Catholic Church is up to Him. But you’re probably a lot less likely to access it outside of the Church, because what makes the average Joe thinks God’s gonna make him the next Moses? Could it happen? Sure. But if Jesus went to all that trouble of setting up a Church that the gates of hell would not prevail aginst, and then give him the keys, just to have people go “Oh, well, I’ll just find God my own way.” HA. You think God will honor that blasphemous level of rebellion and spiritual pride? I seriously doubt it.

 

[bookgirl32]

And yet when the Catholic Church defines dogma through the years, we get hammered. How deliciously ironic

Seriously.

 

[bookgirl32]

There are some absolute truths. God has revealed to us His truths. Do I think there Is more yet to be revealed? YES
1 John 3 :2 “It has not yet been revealed to us what we shall be, but we know when HE is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” In that there are more things yet to be revealed.

What do you think the context behind this verse is?

And secondly, as far as what has already been revealed, in your estimation, how do you know exactly what it is and how it is true?

 

[Padrej]

The Catholic Church uses the keys as the Holy Spirit sees fit to move Her. Think of it as God “protecting His interests.”

I do think out of the box quite frequently. The simple fact that the Bible says “and God changed His mind.” The fact that God apparently presented David with two future options in the OT, and David’s choice would alter history. Yet there are also passages showing How Yahweh changes not. So really, you can drive yourself nuts thinking about the relationship between human free will, divine foreknowledge, and how God experiences time and yet is outside of it as we understand it.

Now this, my friend, is where YOU need to think outside of the box. Why do Protestants seem so intent on thinking that Jesus suffered so we don’t have to? Why does salvation automatically mean heaven?
**There are Granted some who do but most of us do not think that way. We tend to look at the verse that says “If you suffer with Christ” and take it a little more literally. Granted there are some “baby Christians” who probably think this way but that is not the belief of the majority.
as to Salvation Automatically meaning heaven: OK the Baptists, YES. There are some that it is a faith alone NO WORKS. while others know instinctively much like the Roman Catholics that I have run into that your works are a natural result of your faith.
**

The end result of salvation is, indeed, heaven, but that is based on our hope in the resurrection since we have been baptized into Christ’s death. Salvation really means exchanging slavery to sin for slavery to Christ. And Christ says pick up your cross. God is a Father that chastises and disciplines us into perfection. The merits of His son are applied in life and after, AS LONG AS we are part of the family.
**Once again we are in agreement. I do not believe however we should think. “well God gave me Cancer as my cross to bear.” That Is bad theology. A cross to bear is something you take up willingly. (that cross to bear line is a pet peave of mine) Does God give sickness? I have never heard of the Holy Flu or Heavenly Pox yet. Does he ALLOW it? YES that is the difference because of our fallen sin nature. **

WE ARE NOT ANGELS. WE ARE NOT SPIRITUAL BEINGS. It is BECAUSE of our flesh and our fallen nature that salvation is a process. If we were the angels, then yes, protestants, we would be eternally secure after our decision, or eternally damned. But guess what? We’re not. This entire life is our test, to show God that we will always struggle towards Him. And as long as we die in Him, He will still be our Father, and sometimes Daddy’s gotta take out the belt.
Once again I agree. John Wesley said we continue to move towards perfection in this life, the only place we reach it is in the Heavenly

Christ didn’t die to necessarily take away suffering, because God makes it clear that He uses suffering. Christ died to make our suffering mean something. 99% of Protestant issues stem not from purgatory, it’s because they not only want to believe that Christ died to save them, they want to believe that Christ made it EASY. That’s isn’t how God rolls.

The only “easy” part is to accept the free gift of Salvation that Christ offers. that is what we believe. We know that human suffering is a part of life. we know that being a Christian somehow lightens the load because of our faith. When I visit the dying in the hospital, I can tell those who believe in God and those who do not. Those who do have a peace about them, those who do not have a look of fear. It does not mean the believer has any less pain because they do, it means that with God the burden seems lighter. Jesus said “take my yoke upon you, my burden is easy, my yoke is light”
So I am curious where the 99% figure comes from. I have been as pastor for over 20 years and I would say that figure would be FAR lower amongst Protestants.

 

[Javl]

I too have enjoyed our discussions, they bless me and they sharpen my skills. I would not call your answers outclassed by any stretch of the imagination brother.

Interesting way to answer that question. Finally somebody who has come up with a direct answer. I do realize that Purgatory is the result of God’s judgment and the time spent is for God alone, But I am also looking at this from the standpoint that the priest has the power of absolution. The way that I have been taught is that after the penance the absolution takes full effect. NOW, here is another situation. At the Battle of Gettysburg, Fr. Corby gave the Irish Brigade “conditional absolution” so that if they died in battle their sins were totally absolved. Now in other posts It was explained that “yeah but you sin after confession,” my point is: If those chaps in the Irish Brigade who died with absolution meaning they are having a clean slate, do you now have Purgatory for them?
It is my understanding of Absolution that it wipes the slate clean. YES don’t go round with the paying the penalty bit, I know I know. I guess what my problem then is absolution then really does nothing but tell you the sin is gone, the problem I am having a hard time with and maybe some one can help we with here is why harp on the guilt side with penance?
Let me explain. The illustration was used of the parable of the unforgiving steward that owed and the phrase used to justify Purgatory was “you will not be let out until the last penny was paid.” The problem was in the parable the king had completely forgiven the debt of the first so that there was NO penalty. That was what God does because the reply was “you should have had mercy because I completely forgave you.” Because of the Un-forgiveness the man was to be jailed till the last penny was paid.

Thank you padrej. I really enjoy discussing this with you. I wish we were face to face.

The only answer I can give is that although the priest ( Church ) has the power to absolve
sins, it does not have the power to remove the consequences resulting from sin. That is up to God alone. For if the Church had that power it would be doing all the judging instead of God. God alone has the power and right to judge man.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

What do you think the context behind this verse is?

And secondly, as far as what has already been revealed, in your estimation, how do you know exactly what it is and how it is true?

The verse is speaking of what is beyond in our life, God, heaven, etc.

What is True? Sound almost like Pilate.
I’ll Bite. Scripture tells us to test all things in light of scripture (what has already been revealed) and hold fast to that which is good.
So I assume when the Roman catholic Church meets on matters it does not consult scripture? I think that it would. I would then think it would go to reason like most other Protestants do (in your case the Holy Spirit, Church fathers, councils etc) (Us the Holy Spirit Church fathers)
Traditions (does it hold fast to what has already been done)
Is that the answer you are looking for?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

“Once again we are in agreement. I do not believe however we should think. “well God gave me Cancer as my cross to bear.” That Is bad theology. A cross to bear is something you take up willingly. (that cross to bear line is a pet peave of mine) Does God give sickness? I have never heard of the Holy Flu or Heavenly Pox yet. Does he ALLOW it? YES that is the difference because of our fallen sin nature.”

“There are some that it is a faith alone NO WORKS. while others know instinctively much like the Roman Catholics that I have run into that your works are a natural result of your faith.”

Response:
I would say that it is due to my experience as a Church Hopping Protestant thanks to Mom, and the fact that my Dad lost his faith over the very same issue, and I have many Protestant friends I have brought close to the Catholic faith.

Over and over, across denominational lines, people are told they are suffering because they don’t have enough faith. They think “well of course I have faith, God must be ignoring me.” Or worse yet “God isn’t real.” If only they realized the Catholic understanding of suffering; it truly works wonders. That’s what made Mother Theresa so special.

I was wrong, however, to say 99%, it’s one of my little catch-phrases I need to get rid of.

Evangelicals are very fond of the idea of eternal assurance however, and I would say there’s quite a few of them Padrej…

Some baptists I have met actually believe in “backsliding,” so that probably wasn’t the best example because even they are fractured. Honestly it can be so difficult conversing with you guys because I have to learn your denominational theology first. At least the Reformed think I’m on par with a cultist, so I know exactly where I and the Virgin Mary stand. Bad Joke.

And regardless of whether you think God gave you the cross or whether it’s something God allowed to happen to you (I agree with your statement however), it doesn’t really change the fact that as a Christian, it IS your cross to bear, cancer notwithstanding.

Another minor quibble, is that our good works are not a natural result of our faith. That would mean “saving faith.” Our good works are a result of GRACE, and we can choose not to cooperate with that grace. If you start making destinctions between “faith” and “saving faith,” then you fall right back into the trap of not knowing whether or not your faith is saving faith or not, because only God can judge the quality of faith to begin with.

Saving faith is a term used nowhere in the Bible. James 2:24, where many Protestants get the concept of saving faith (out of necessity) goes on later in the same letter to show all the struggles you must face that would seem to HAMPER good works. As well as the caveat that NOT doing good works is a sin too. James doesn’t demonstrate faith as a “saving faith” he shows faith as just that: faith. Imperfect in all cases, judged through the eyes of Grace because we responded to that grace. It’s a faith that works must be added onto by cooperating with that grace. Faith is not a switch that starts the conveyer belt of good works.

 

[holy_moly]

OK this in interesting. Time can be mitigated by Prayer fasting and acts of Charity; Now reconcile this with “each must work out his OWN salvation with fear and trembling.” This is another concept that I have never had fully explained yet. If we are each responsible for our own salvation yet, I can do an act of charity to get another person out of Purgatory? Does it work that way with salvation too??? Can I ride mom and dad’s coat tails into heaven if mom and dad are good Catholics or Protestants but yet I never darken the door of the church, can they “earn my way” in if I die before they do?

Sunday’s homily talked about how one act of charity can expiate many sins, but I think Father meant for the one doing the act itself. Is this along the same line of thought? I think the quote from Paul addresses more the concept of once save always saved, which Paul does not promote.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Don’t let the Protestant title fool you; I am closer than what you may think.

What I war referring to I the binding and loosing statements was NOT from a protestant view but questioning why the Catholic Church is not using the power given to it. If the Power was given to it to bind and loose it should also have the power to say “those souls are also cleansed from all stains in the name of Christ” and it shall be done. That has already been revealed in scripture that it is possible to do so why not do it?

Can you imagine the howls from the non-Catholic camp if the Pope did such a thing?

 

[Randy_Carson]

There are some absolute truths. God has revealed to us His truths. Do I think there Is more yet to be revealed? YES
1 John 3 :2 “It has not yet been revealed to us what we shall be, but we know when HE is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is” In that there are more things yet to be revealed.

But you would agree that public revelation has ended, yes?