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Randy_Carson
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You aren’t in one Accord?I have an Accord. I’m SAAAAAAVVVVVEEEDDDD!!!
Come out foul spirit! Be wheeeeeeeeeeeeeled!
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Come out foul spirit! Be wheeeeeeeeeeeeeled!
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Padrej
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OK so if the Cannon of scripture is closed I can agree on that. BUT, revelation NO. If not How could the Pope have anything revealed to him? How could the Pope speak Ex-Cathedra if there is no more “revelation”??? When the Pope speaks Ex-Cathedra that is binding on all believers and has been revealed to him through the Holy Spirit.Hang on…let’s not misunderstand one another.
You do agree that the canon is closed and that there will be no more PUBLIC revelation which is binding on the consciences of all believers.
Right?
“We see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face” 1 Cor. 13: 12 indicating the closer we get to Christ the more will be revealed.
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Randy_Carson
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UK or US?You might say that I like being where I am at right now. (Anglican- Catholic Light all the sins half the guilt)
Seriously I am and Anglican Bishop (By Anglican I mean Traditional Episcopal). And I have worked ecumenically with the local Catholic Cardinal and other clergy and on a couple of occasions con-celebrated mass with them. (Actually one of my lines of apostolic succession come from the Roman Catholic church from a Roman Catholic bishop: ruling from the Vatican on this- “valid but irregular”)
It is not that I do not believe in the paths and ways of the catechism, I actually served an Anglican Parish that used the Catholic Catechism rather than the catechism of the Prayer book, so I got fairly familiar with it.
Many of the points of the Catechism on justification, salvation, grace, and the like I as well as many protestants would agree with. There are still a few sticking points that I could not deal with.
I don’t want to blow my own horn here , but the last funeral I did one gentleman came up to me and said, “I wish we had you in our church, you are far more compassionate than the priest we have at our Roman Catholic parish.” Granted there are many Priests who are VERY compassionate, but I FEEL that they serve such large congregations that they loose some of the compassion and it becomes a ritual. ( would say the same BTW for Protestant ministers too) So I will continue to bloom where God has planted me so far. I hope that answered your question.
Padrej-
I, too, wish that the Catholic Church had all of the gifted, talented folks that many Protestant churches have. We need them pulling on the oars of St. Peter’s bark.
Much harm has been done and many souls lost because of the divisions that separate us. But it is exciting to see so many fired up pastors and clergy coming home at last.
Satan has been hammering the Catholic Church badly for quite some time; there is no chance of the ship being swamped for He is with us, but we’re listing badly just the same.
God bless you on your journey, and may you find your way home quickly. We need men like you.
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Padrej
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That is why I was blown out of the water with the Exodus passage being used to justify passing into God’s presence coming from an older priest. “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and compassion on whom I have compassion.” and he kept repeating it. to show how we pass DIRECTLY into God’s presence.Padrej, I pray for unification every day, at the adoration chapel, right after my Jujitsu classes
The reason why no priest mentions it is that it isn’t a very pleasant thought. Sort of like hell; let’s say you had a grandpa that died and was a pagan and rejected Christ, are you going to say he probably is smoking camels with Hitler? No.
And besides, Purgatory is just another step of God’s love, as far as I’m concerned. God knows I can’t seem to help myself, and Im sure my wife would agree.
I think of it as Dad hosing me off on the front porch before Sunday dinner. Maybe people don’t want to believe in purgatory. Our culture rarely likes to think of ugly things like “consequences” and “purification.” They want fast-food grace. Holiness is a lost concept. The fact is, the Church believes in it though. And put in its proper context, I see no reason why it can’t be talked about at a funeral, except that it’s on the way to heaven anyway so nobody really wants to here the intricacies of theology when gram passed away.
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Randy_Carson
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I think clergy in general tend to accentuate the positive at times of emotional distress.I thought Catholics only believed that certain FEW persons received “revelations” from God and then it is only under careful scrutiny.
I Know Catholic Lite is an OLD joke and ready for the bone yard.
so lets get back to what this thread is about.
We all agree no unclean thing can go into heaven hence the Catholic belief in Purgatory because there needs to be a place to “purge” away our spots.
Now We have some citing that David had to pay for his sin with Bathsheba even though he was forgiven. I can agree to this. But when I have been carefully looking into scripture when God pronounced the punishment on David for this, it was only going to last for his lifetime and onto his family while he was living. It does not mention after he dies. God deals with Solomon separately. Pray tell me how this ties in.
Now I went to a funeral and the priest said something germane to this discussion in regard to the dead person. He quoted from Exodus 31: 19 “I will be gracious on whom I will be gracious and have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Talk about blowing me out of the water in the conversation of Purgatory, THERE WAS NONE. All he spoke of was Heaven and his (the dead person) being there. My question is… Being that this subject seems be avoided in some Catholic circles as far as teaching, I am wondering if this going to go by the wayside eventually. In fact the last 5 Catholic funerals I have gone to mentioned Nothing of Purgatory only of the soul of the person being in heaven. If you didn’t know that it was a Catholic funeral you would think it was a Protestant minister preaching.
Consider this: The Catechism is replete with more sections on justification than I even posted so I wonder if be a matter of time before some “protestant thinking” or equal to it will be the prevalent “teachings.”** I am not saying that Purgatory will be dropped from the catechism** just not required as belief eventually. Just a question to mill around if priests are not mentioning this at funerals any more.
Sadly, I think they miss a “teaching moment”, but on the other hand, it may not be the best to talk about “going to hell like ol’ Davey here” or what have you.
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Randy_Carson
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The fact that the child dies does, however, illustrate the principle of temporal punishment, does it not? Even if, in this case, it occurs during the lifetime of David and not in purgatory.
He was forgiven AND yet he still had a punishment to endure.
The principle of the thing is evident.
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Randy_Carson
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The Church no, but do individual priests go against official church teaching?
You’re a bishop, and you can ask that question?
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Padrej
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Thank you and God bless you for your kind words.
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Padrej
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Right but only in principle, So my point is this is not the best illustration because the punishment was only carried out during David’s lifetime.
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Randy_Carson
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Whew!
Is it new revelation or simply Newman’s development of doctrine?
If the pope defines something ex cathedra, is he not “simply” defining an aspect of the faith that was delivered once for all to the saints?
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Nathan_Wagar
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Missing the forrest for the trees, Padrej. You can argue each individual argument to death, but there are many strands in a web
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Padrej
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I am a Protestant bishop and I am asking that question of Catholics. There are a good many Prot. ministers that go against denominational teachings as well. It just seems to me all the more shocking when I have been raised to believe that Catholicism is an “all or nothing” faith and the priests are giving communion to any darn fool that comes forward and their excuse is “let God sort it out.” One diocese may be so conservative the rosary beads absolutely sparkle while another allows any old sinful practice to run rampant and allows catholic political servants receive sacraments after voting PRO abortion. I know nobody is perfect and I shouldn’t be pointing out the speck in my brother’s eye here , but I think you get what I am trying to say.The Church no, but do individual priests go against official church teaching?
You’re a bishop, and you can ask that question?
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Randy_Carson
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Padrej-
I don’t know how old you are, but you have to remember that “old priests” today were in seminary in the 60’s.
At the very least, they passed through the 60’s and 70’s before they were old enough to be immune to the cultural winds that blew through the Church.
Happily, we are seeing younger priests who are more conservative and the seminaries are full of good men who (God willing) will remain faithful to the Magisterium.
At least, that’s the view from where I sit. How do your seminarians strike you in this regard?
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Nathan_Wagar
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The difference is, Padrej, the truth is there to return to. Everything else out there is an opinion. The church is the path, and every now and then the little worker ants go off the path a bit. Each generation tends to correct the errors of the few before it. With protestants, their are thousands of paths, and with each generation a new path is added.
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Randy_Carson
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I do, sadly.
It’s called “Cafeteria Catholicism”, Padre. People pick and choose what they want to accept and what they reject.
But, hey, Judas didn’t accept everything, either.
So, we’re working on it!
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Padrej
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clarification: So when Pope Urban II proclaimed the crusades ex-cathedra how was that from the “faith once delivered for all to the saints” Or are you going to wiggle out of that one by saying the doctrine of Papal Infalibility had not yet come into effect so that does not count. I have heard that argument.Whew!
Is it new revelation or simply Newman’s development of doctrine?
If the pope defines something ex cathedra, is he not “simply” defining an aspect of the faith that was delivered once for all to the saints?
You don’t like Cardinal Newman???
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Nathan_Wagar
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Having done a bit of study on the Crusades, I would say that essentialy they were necessary. Islam was spreading, and although evils are inherent in warfare, it is quite likely there wouldn’t be any Christians on that particular continent at all if not for the pope’s declaration, and that is regardless of whether it was ex-cathedra or not.
And that seems to be the dominant opinion amongst secular historians, not the ones wearing “Catholo-goggles.” I guess it boils down to: is it ethical to prevent Christianity from being wiped out?
I am not the person with the knowledge or resources to debate the “Just war” theory; far greater minds then I have written volumes, but I do believe the concept applied.
And that seems to be the dominant opinion amongst secular historians, not the ones wearing “Catholo-goggles.” I guess it boils down to: is it ethical to prevent Christianity from being wiped out?
I am not the person with the knowledge or resources to debate the “Just war” theory; far greater minds then I have written volumes, but I do believe the concept applied.
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Padrej
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OOOHHHHH mouth drooling!!!Padrej-
I don’t know how old you are, but you have to remember that “old priests” today were in seminary in the 60’s.
At the very least, they passed through the 60’s and 70’s before they were old enough to be immune to the cultural winds that blew through the Church.
Happily, we are seeing younger priests who are more conservative and the seminaries are full of good men who (God willing) will remain faithful to the Magisterium.
At least, that’s the view from where I sit. How do your seminarians strike you in this regard?
Somebody who thinks like I do on seminarians of the 60’s.
My thoughts on this is that many of them went to seminary to avoid going to Vietnam and had no more business there than the man in the moon. The problem is now their radical ideas are creeping into the Church of every denomination. (homosexual ordination, marriage of gay couples, sexual sins of every kind) Now these are the “old guys” and are now the ones in power and their ideas did not fly in the 60’s so why not make them fly now in the church with a little bit of theology tied to it to make it east to swallow to the average person who does not know better.
I pray that there are still SOME conservative seminaries out there. The ones for Protestants are few and far between. Even Catholic University in Washington DC near me is becoming liberal in its Domincan house of studies. SAD!!!
Bishop Sheen is probably spinning in his grave as the old saying goes. I know he is not there. He was well loved at Catholic U.
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Padrej
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I to have studied the crusades from the standpoints of “the monks of war.” You are actually the FIRST Catholic person I have EVER EVER run in to that has given me an answer to that question that I posed.:bowdown:
Urban also believed that this would keep him from Purgatory if others fought for the church by his call.
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Nathan_Wagar
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Let’s just say I was very thorough in my quest to make my wife a protestant. Yeah…
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