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Nathan_Wagar
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Nathan_Wagar
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PadreJ
That’s why I love debating the messianic prophecies with Jews. They often take the surviving tradition and act like it was the only one at the time of Christ.
That being said, I believe Jesus DOES mention purgatory. Jesus talks about the sin that will not be forgiven, neither in this age nor the age to come. I believe this is an explicit reference to purgatory, since you can’t have sins forgiven in hell. It refers to purgatory because it is speaking of after death, and the sin is mortal and so cannot be forgiven. Not many Protestants agree, they insist it is hyperbole and does not refer to after death. Because of this Catholics seem to have stopped using this little gem, but I still do.
I disagree completely that this phrase does not refer to after death.
Hebrews: 9:8-9: “By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the Sacntuary, the Holy of Holies, is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing, which is symbolic for the present age, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshipper, but deal only with food and drink and various ablutions.”
The outer tent rreferred to is the Holy Place and the Courtyard outside the Holy of Holies. He is speaking of the Day of Atonement and the High priest’s offer of sacrifice every year. As long as the Jerusalem Temple still stands, the way into the Holy of Holies is not yet open for all people. The “present age” ended in 70 AD, and the “age to come arrives.”
HOWEVER, we are living LITURGICALLY in the age to come. It hasn’t come physically, but it is here spiritually and we partake in it through the Sacraments, where our liturgy is joined with that in heaven. That being said, we don’t participate FULLY in the “age to come” until we are dead. We have Old creation flesh, but we worship in the New creation. We are on the old earth but worship in the new. We are in the “between times.”
FOR this reason, the age-to-come is not a total reality in the absolute sense until after death, and for this reason I believe Jesus is speaking of purgatory. This is borne out by the fact that purgatory would not have existed until people entered the presence of God, which only takes place when Jesus ushers in the “age to come,” and that is why Jesus would refer to it in the future sense. Before you even make the argument that it should have happened directly after the cross, I would point out that if eternity is outside of time then that is irrelevant.
Another objection you might have is that you may sense an inconsistency in my theology, since technically our sins are already forgiven, and we should, according to me, be merely receiving correction. However, since purgatory could rightly be seen as the application of God’s forgiveness of your venial sins, I see this as a nonissue.
For these reasons I believe Jesus indeed speaks of Purgatory, Padre.
That’s why I love debating the messianic prophecies with Jews. They often take the surviving tradition and act like it was the only one at the time of Christ.
That being said, I believe Jesus DOES mention purgatory. Jesus talks about the sin that will not be forgiven, neither in this age nor the age to come. I believe this is an explicit reference to purgatory, since you can’t have sins forgiven in hell. It refers to purgatory because it is speaking of after death, and the sin is mortal and so cannot be forgiven. Not many Protestants agree, they insist it is hyperbole and does not refer to after death. Because of this Catholics seem to have stopped using this little gem, but I still do.
I disagree completely that this phrase does not refer to after death.
Hebrews: 9:8-9: “By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the Sacntuary, the Holy of Holies, is not yet opened as long as the outer tent is still standing, which is symbolic for the present age, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot perfect the conscience of the worshipper, but deal only with food and drink and various ablutions.”
The outer tent rreferred to is the Holy Place and the Courtyard outside the Holy of Holies. He is speaking of the Day of Atonement and the High priest’s offer of sacrifice every year. As long as the Jerusalem Temple still stands, the way into the Holy of Holies is not yet open for all people. The “present age” ended in 70 AD, and the “age to come arrives.”
HOWEVER, we are living LITURGICALLY in the age to come. It hasn’t come physically, but it is here spiritually and we partake in it through the Sacraments, where our liturgy is joined with that in heaven. That being said, we don’t participate FULLY in the “age to come” until we are dead. We have Old creation flesh, but we worship in the New creation. We are on the old earth but worship in the new. We are in the “between times.”
FOR this reason, the age-to-come is not a total reality in the absolute sense until after death, and for this reason I believe Jesus is speaking of purgatory. This is borne out by the fact that purgatory would not have existed until people entered the presence of God, which only takes place when Jesus ushers in the “age to come,” and that is why Jesus would refer to it in the future sense. Before you even make the argument that it should have happened directly after the cross, I would point out that if eternity is outside of time then that is irrelevant.
Another objection you might have is that you may sense an inconsistency in my theology, since technically our sins are already forgiven, and we should, according to me, be merely receiving correction. However, since purgatory could rightly be seen as the application of God’s forgiveness of your venial sins, I see this as a nonissue.
For these reasons I believe Jesus indeed speaks of Purgatory, Padre.
J
Javl
Guest
Jesus also mentioned Paradise. Many take it to be Heaven, but we can equate it with either or. As for the Jews “holding place”, that had to be carried over into Christianity, for where else would the idea have come from ( although the Greek philosophers did put“What the Jews believe up to this day.” Which sect of Jews do you refer? Not even all Orthodox Jews believe in the holding place or “Gehenna” where you can be tormented by demons of your own making. Now does that belief of “demons tormenting” carry over into Catholic Purgatory??? I have not read about anything but a purifying fire in Catholic beliefs.
There are some Jews that also believe that the soul that gets reincarnated, that “that is the fire” of the holding place. Does that belief also carry over also?
Some Orthodox Jews believe that the soul goes to a holding place that is similar in description to the Christian heaven to await the Messiah.
So when you say you believe as the Jews do, I think you have to be very careful. Even in Jesus’ day there were debates on this; as you had the Sadusees who believed in no raising of the dead and the Pharisees who did. So even then who would you believe. Jesus only mentioned two places-- Heaven and Hell. So who do you believe??? The Jews or Jesus.
forth their ideas on it ). As you should know, it has been mentioned in the writings of
Historians of the day, such as Flavius Josephus. As for Jesus not mentioning it, or
teaching about it is only conjecture. We do not know. ( as for the homosexual arguement,
Paul does preach against it, which is the same as Jesus preaching against it.).
Many Jews that I have been in contact with, from Orthodox, Hassidim, and Conservative,
do believe in a “holding place”, but not as Purgatory ( also, Reform Jews may or may not belive ). To get further information on this, I will contact The Hebrew Catholic ***'n. and
ask for their belifs on this matter. Meanwhile, God Bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
C
crowcounty
Guest
mathew 5:25 i believe isa purgatory verse not so much with macabees2 12:…
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Javl
Guest
That was a very sharp slap in the face. I’m glad though that he has had a change of mindI know. I just got an email (lengthy) on this subject. Apparently I could come in as married and remain so until my wife dies and then I must remain celibate. For a while Benedict had the door more closed then John Paul. I and a few other of my colleagues had an audience with the Pope (John Paul II) but when he died the invitation was withdrawn by the Vatican with the explanation the Benedict was not as open to meeting with others as John Paul was.
That was rather a slap in the face.
( workings of the Holy Spirit? ). As for the celibacy bit, I’m sure that that will be relaxed in the future and follow what the Eastern Churches do. I understand that celibacy was
instituted by the hierarchy to prevent wives of married priests who had died from arguing and suing the church for the dead priest’s property. Ah, politics, etc., etc. God Bless
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Padrej
Guest
Already been this route. Go back and read all posts.
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Padrej
Guest
Where do you get the Catholic teaching of the “Jews made one covenant and messed it up so bad that god himself had to fulfill it and in fulfilling the old covenant he opened the door for a new blood covenant based on the blood of god since it is infinite and now since the new covenant with Jesus who is god so basically we believe that the Jews are beating a dead horse where as we Catholics carry the mark of the new covenant in our hearts we are post messianic Jews sort of but on the subject of between here and heaven”
The Catechism clearly states:
“Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Paragraph 3, SubSection 3, Heading 4
839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”
I see **Nothing **in there about which you speak of, can you explain where you get this teaching? If the gifts and calls of God are irrevocable (as both the catechism and scripture says), how can the Jews “mess them up” as you so claim?
You mention Saul conjuring up Samuel to try to justify Purgatory. How was this conjuring done? Through a process that was strictly forbidden by God’s Law. There was a way that God had prescribed that Saul could have consulted, it was through the priest and the Urim and Thummim, OR God would speak through dreams, it was because of Saul’s unrepentant nature that God was not speaking to him so he goes to the Witch of En Dor. Samuel’s response was “Why do you disturb me by bringing me up?” the question is up from what? There would be no inherent difficulty with God bringing back Samuel from Heaven to speak a word of prophesy. You may say, well that is not consistent; then you need to look at the book of Jude when it mentions that the devil was fighting over Moses’ body and the Archangel Michael rebuked Satan. Moses came back and was taken up into heaven just as Enoch because the Old Testament was types and shadows of things to come.
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Padrej
Guest
Jesus also mentioned Paradise. Many take it to be Heaven, but we can equate it with either or. As for the Jews “holding place”, that had to be carried over into Christianity, for where else would the idea have come from ( although the Greek philosophers did put
forth their ideas on it ). As you should know, it has been mentioned in the writings of
Historians of the day, such as Flavius Josephus. As for Jesus not mentioning it, or
teaching about it is only conjecture. We do not know. ( as for the homosexual arguement,
Paul does preach against it, which is the same as Jesus preaching against it.).
I am well aware of that, I am throwing that up because that is the argument THEY use to defend. When Jesus was asked about divorce he spoke to the subject of marriage being between a man and a woman so to me he spoke to it.
Many Jews that I have been in contact with, from Orthodox, Hassidim, and Conservative,
do believe in a “holding place”, but not as Purgatory ( also, Reform Jews may or may not belive ). To get further information on this, I will contact The Hebrew Catholic ***'n. and
ask for their belifs on this matter. Meanwhile, God Bless.
**As I have said in previous posts there are disagreements between the various sects of Jews as to this belief in the holding place, even amongst the Orthodox. Do a simple google search over Jewish after life and you will see various Jewish sites put up by many different rabbis and very few agree with one another. Some DO believe in the holding place so I do agree with you, but also in this holding place there can be two things a purging fire or demons of our own making that torment us. Others believe in a holding place similar to Christian heaven that they await the Messiah. Others there soul is reborn into other bodies and this is the purifying fire they go through. This is why I say it is dangerous for a Catholic to just way “the Jews believe in a holding place so the Catholics follow in that belief” as the beliefs amongs the Jews are so varied. **
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
J
Javl
Guest
padrej:
OK. I now know what you are getting at and what you mean, and I do have to agree with you up to a point. Some where in there is the truth about Purgatory. All we can do now is to pray the Holy Spirit for enlightenment and the truth about Purgatory. Meanwhile, until it
can absolutely be proven otherwise, I will hold on to my belief and still pray for the dead.
God Bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
OK. I now know what you are getting at and what you mean, and I do have to agree with you up to a point. Some where in there is the truth about Purgatory. All we can do now is to pray the Holy Spirit for enlightenment and the truth about Purgatory. Meanwhile, until it
can absolutely be proven otherwise, I will hold on to my belief and still pray for the dead.
God Bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
P
Padrej
Guest
PRAY FOR THE DEAD!!! Now we are to a point that many Protestants do have in their funeral liturgies. They pray for the soul of the faithful to be found acceptable to God. Some of the more liturgical Protestants go further and do invoke saints for intersession also.padrej:
OK. I now know what you are getting at and what you mean, and I do have to agree with you up to a point. Some where in there is the truth about Purgatory. All we can do now is to pray the Holy Spirit for enlightenment and the truth about Purgatory. Meanwhile, until it
can absolutely be proven otherwise, I will hold on to my belief and still pray for the dead.
God Bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
It is my opinion that there is more in common between Catholics and Protestants than what many of us would like to admit. It is when we find that common ground that the differences do not seem so bad.
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Javl
Guest
I do know that many Liturgical Protestants do pray for the dead, but still many of them do not believe in Purgatory. Oh well, all this will be cleared up some day, and soon I pray. Meanwhile I know it would be pleasing to God if we would all get together as One Church
and stop squabbling with one another over picayune points of law or whatever. As Our Lord said: “That we may all be one…” as He and the Father are one. God Bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
P
Padrej
Guest
I agree with you 100%. In my opinion, there are some stat still look to the “corrupt era” of the Catholic church when indulgences were sold and to the inquisition and think that little has changed. they point their finger and say,“aha they still believe in Purgatory and have indulgences and they knew it was wrong to sell the indulgences in the first place.”I do know that many Liturgical Protestants do pray for the dead, but still many of them do not believe in Purgatory. Oh well, all this will be cleared up some day, and soon I pray. Meanwhile I know it would be pleasing to God if we would all get together as One Church
and stop squabbling with one another over picayune points of law or whatever. As Our Lord said: “That we may all be one…” as He and the Father are one. God Bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
ON THE OTHER HAND
I have run into some Catholics that believe that all Protestants think like Martin Luther or Henry VIII or John Calvin. The problem is that many of the denominations that are out there today do not even think in the way their founder’s did. Just as the Catholic church stopped selling indulgences as it believed that was wrong and stopped the inquisition for the same purpose we too have changed through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
What bothers me is when ecumenical relations and talks are viewed as sinful by person on BOTH sides of the fence and when persons on both sides say, “We KNOW we are right because……” It frosted me when I spoke at last year’s ethics conference at the University of Notre Dame and there were members of the Orthodox there who, according to them, were the only ones going to go to heaven. I don’t know who made them judge over you and me but I listened to them with interest. There was no looking at what we had in common or nothing, either you are Orthodox or you were nothing, you were outside of the Church of Christ. Even the Catholic catechism allows for Protestants being “saved” because of our faith in Christ. Let me tell you the Orthodox were not going to budge on Purgatory or the Immaculate Conception of Mary and they wold pick a fight with those wearing the miraculous medal because of the wording “I am the immaculate conception.”
J
Javl
Guest
Some day some of these people will wake up and realize that they were wrong. I hope that day comes soon.
Yes, I find the Orthodox very obstinate. There is a local Greek Orthodox church nearby.
Once yearly they have a Greek festival and my wife and I usually attend. One year I
engaged one of the parishoners in a discussion, when he found out I was Catholic I
thought he would have a stroke. Yet, continuing our discussion he would hear me but
not listen, no matter what I said. Their way is the only way. Accordingly, anyone outside
of the Greek Orthodox church is not saved.
And of course you know of the physical fighting between the Greek priests and Catholic Friars at the shrines in Jerusalem. This really shows all those outside of Christianity
( especially the Muslims ) that we may not be a religion of peace and love. Why should
anyone embrace Christianity when we ourselves can not determine who is right.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
P
Padrej
Guest
I had forgotten about the Greeks and Catholics fighting at the shrines. Do you think that God in his Divine Justice would put some Lutherans, Baptists and Presbyterians ahead of them in line for Heaven just for kicks?Some day some of these people will wake up and realize that they were wrong. I hope that day comes soon.
Yes, I find the Orthodox very obstinate. There is a local Greek Orthodox church nearby.
Once yearly they have a Greek festival and my wife and I usually attend. One year I
engaged one of the parishoners in a discussion, when he found out I was Catholic I
thought he would have a stroke. Yet, continuing our discussion he would hear me but
not listen, no matter what I said. Their way is the only way. Accordingly, anyone outside
of the Greek Orthodox church is not saved.
And of course you know of the physical fighting between the Greek priests and Catholic Friars at the shrines in Jerusalem. This really shows all those outside of Christianity
( especially the Muslims ) that we may not be a religion of peace and love. Why should
anyone embrace Christianity when we ourselves can not determine who is right.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Maybe God would tell them if they questioned that the Presbyterians were Predestined to be there, the Lutherans were there by Grace alone and the Baptists were there to baptize them the way Jesus really was because they are the only ones who really know anyhow.
:dancing:
J
Javl
Guest
Yup. God should do that just to teach these Orthodox and Catholics a lesson!I had forgotten about the Greeks and Catholics fighting at the shrines. Do you think that God in his Divine Justice would put some Lutherans, Baptists and Presbyterians ahead of them in line for Heaven just for kicks?
Maybe God would tell them if they questioned that the Presbyterians were Predestined to be there, the Lutherans were there by Grace alone and the Baptists were there to baptize them the way Jesus really was because they are the only ones who really know anyhow.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
C
catholicsuffer
Guest
Well, I have learned, some times the hard way, that it is far better to follow the Catholic beliefs. I have had a long hard journey for my mind to be molded into the Catholic beliefs and this was always via the Holy Spirit, rather it be dreams, prophecies, or experiences. So if my statement is a teaching of the Protestant then I will for sure put those thoughts away, very, very, very far away.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
I’m happy you guys only struggle with Pepsi and Little Debbies.
I struggle with the Big Debbies with little to no clothing on.
Don’t get me wrong…I don’t spend all my free time surfing porn sites. I obviously post here too frequently for that.
In fact, I don’t go to porn sites at all…but not because I don’t WANT to…I just know it’s wrong, and I have enough self-discipline to stay away.But if a picture happens to flash up on a banner ad or something, well, I don’t mind taking a second look…
Now, THAT is an attachment to sin even if I reject the occasion of sin.
I want to sin, I enjoy the sin…but I resist the temptation to sin.
Someone who is completely detached could look at Angelina Jolie (or anyone else) butt naked and be completely indifferent.
I’m not there, but will be when I come out of the final rinse cycle in purgatory.
I’m forgiven for the times that I have looked, but I will be freed (purged/purified) from the desire to look.
At least, that’s my $.02.
P
Padrej
Guest
RandyI’m happy you guys only struggle with Pepsi and Little Debbies.
I struggle with the Big Debbies with little to no clothing on.
Don’t get me wrong…I don’t spend all my free time surfing porn sites. I obviously post here too frequently for that.
But if a picture happens to flash up on a banner ad or something, well, I don’t mind taking a second look…
Now, THAT is an attachment to sin even if I reject the occasion of sin.
I want to sin, I enjoy the sin…but I resist the temptation to sin.
Someone who is completely detached could look at Angelina Jolie (or anyone else) butt naked and be completely indifferent.
I’m not there, but will be when I come out of the final rinse cycle in purgatory.
I’m forgiven for the times that I have looked, but I will be freed (purged/purified) from the desire to look.
At least, that’s my $.02.
While you are in the “confession mode” so to speak, let me tell you that I am not that far from you and am right there with you with the big Debbies too. It is a well known fact that internet porn is the #1 sexual sin among the clergy and men today because of its secretive nature. The porn industry targets those who look like they have an email that remotely looks like a religious person.
I too know that I can be forgiven by God for the times that I have looked. My faith tells me that my sins are covered in Christ’s blood and are removed from me as far as the east is from the west never to be remembered any more once they are confessed. That is what Is what is the difference, I feel, between Catholics and Protestants here. We feel that once the sin is confessed it is gone and God will remember it no more; where a Catholic still has to go through some type of punishment in Purgatory.
N
Nathan_Wagar
Guest
You are covered, Padrej. But just the fact that you struggle with it is why Purgatory is necessary.
And I was deployed twice, so I can feel you pain there regarding “cyber-Debbies”
And I was deployed twice, so I can feel you pain there regarding “cyber-Debbies”
J
Javl
Guest
You can include me in that group too, but I still hold to the fact that God’s Justice demands payment for the consequences of that ( those ) sin(s). There is a huge difference
between a repentent murderer and a repentent habitual liar.
I did a little snooping around and learned that all Jews, except for the Saducees, believed
in a “holding place” up and into the start of rabbinic Judaism. This carried over into the early Church. As per ususal, each rabbi probably related and taught his thoughts on this
holding place which probably resulted in such a wide belief, or non belief, among the Jews of today. God Bless.
Len
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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