How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

[Javl]

I’m just an interested bystander who didn’t think he’d get to see anything like this in his lifetime.

There are what, something like 70 million Anglicans. If say 10% enter into communion with the Catholic Church at one time…wow! What a wonderful step towards being “one”.

You would know more than I. I’m having a “fact free” discussion based on quotes from 2nd and 3rd hand sources.

I’ve always thought that many of the things that separate us are quite frankly linguistic semantics.

I’m just really interested to see how this is all being worked out.

If it can happen once, maybe it can happen again, and again, and again.

Though I knew anything is possible for God, I thought something like this was a practical impossibility.

Yeah God!

Chuck

What really separates us from most ( Orthodox, Polish Catholich Church, Old Catholics,
etc. ) is more a matter of politics than theological issues. Papal infallibility is a major
issue, more political than theological. Many of the Eastern Churches that were once
separated did come into communion once they were allowed to keep their method
( liturgy ) of worship. At one time the explanation that the “filioque” in the Creed of the
Church was unacceptable to the Orthodox Churches, and that kept us apart. It was
settled and solved, yet we are still separated. Some day all these issues will be solved
and we will all be one. I pray it comes soon.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

I’m just an interested bystander who didn’t think he’d get to see anything like this in his lifetime.

There are what, something like 70 million Anglicans. If say 10% enter into communion with the Catholic Church at one time…wow! What a wonderful step towards being “one”.

You would know more than I. I’m having a “fact free” discussion based on quotes from 2nd and 3rd hand sources.

I’ve always thought that many of the things that separate us are quite frankly linguistic semantics.

I’m just really interested to see how this is all being worked out.

If it can happen once, maybe it can happen again, and again, and again.

Though I knew anything is possible for God, I thought something like this was a practical impossibility.

Yeah God!

Chuck

I too wonder what the outcome of this is. I have read some of the backlash from within the Anglican church. Some are concerned over Purgatory. Some over loosing sovereignty (as if THAT was a Christian thing). Some were concerned over the re-ordination thing.
I want to see the fireworks when the ordained Anglican female clergy want to swim the Tiber and the Catholic church says “NO.”
I know there has been a movement in the Catholic church for sometime now to have female clergy. Just keep in mind before any of you go throwing stones that female Anglican clergy are not all “liberal” in their thinking, many are quite conservative.

 

[Javl]

I too wonder what the outcome of this is. I have read some of the backlash from within the Anglican church. Some are concerned over Purgatory. Some over loosing sovereignty (as if THAT was a Christian thing). Some were concerned over the re-ordination thing.
I want to see the fireworks when the ordained Anglican female clergy want to swim the Tiber and the Catholic church says "NO."
I know there has been a movement in the Catholic church for sometime now to have female clergy. Just keep in mind before any of you go throwing stones that female Anglican clergy are not all “liberal” in their thinking, many are quite conservative.

Although they may be conservative, Pope John Paul explained quite explicitly why women
cannot be priests. Therfore the Anglican female clergy should know and understand this.
I also doubt very much that any future Pope or College of Bishops would ever approve of
female clergy. If this ever happens, I can assure you of a huge split in the Catholic
Church, much like that in the Anglican Church. There have been enough problems in
Christendom, why make more?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

Although they may be conservative, Pope John Paul explained quite explicitly why women
cannot be priests. Therfore the Anglican female clergy should know and understand this.
I also doubt very much that any future Pope or College of Bishops would ever approve of
female clergy. If this ever happens, I can assure you of a huge split in the Catholic
Church, much like that in the Anglican Church. There have been enough problems in
Christendom, why make more?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I know that a great majority do. I know that there is usually one in every crowd so to speak that will push the envelope on the issue. What is sad is the group called the Virginia 11(by Anglicans) were told flat out by the Bishop of Virginia “follow scripture and be defrocked of follow the church and its acceptance of homosexual clergy and marriage and you can keep your churches.” Three of those were female priests.
Certainly a problem that needs much prayer.
There is a Mother Superior of one of our Anglican religious orders that swam the Tiber to Anglicanism and from her response to this call as a former Catholic it was not pretty.

 

[Javl]

I know that a great majority do. I know that there is usually one in every crowd so to speak that will push the envelope on the issue. What is sad is the group called the Virginia 11(by Anglicans) were told flat out by the Bishop of Virginia “follow scripture and be defrocked of follow the church and its acceptance of homosexual clergy and marriage and you can keep your churches.” Three of those were female priests.
Certainly a problem that needs much prayer.
There is a Mother Superior of one of our Anglican religious orders that swam the Tiber to Anglicanism and from her response to this call as a former Catholic it was not pretty.

We have to expect things like that. There’s always some dissent and rebellion on all sides. Time heals all wounds. Or is time wounds all heels?

Len

PAX DOMINI :signofcross

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

In honor of today, Oct. 25 being Reformation Sunday I wanted to cite an old article from the NY times
nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html
The article mentioned that indulgences are returning to the Catholic church. I know they never really stopped but the article mentions the resurgence with Benedict XVI as Pope in offering them.
Another curiosity is the mention of “selling indulgences.” TRUE you cannot sell them (that was banned in 1567), BUT for a donation (combined with other acts) you can get one.

Funny Protestants get picked on like sixty for “sowing seeds” into peoples ministries on TV and “because of your gift of faith God will…” Can somebody tell me what the difference really is; other than one is Protestant and the other is Catholic and the wording is slightly different.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

You’ve got it backwards. We pick on Protestants for that *because *they pick on us for indulgences

 

[Padrej]

You’ve got it backwards. We pick on Protestants for that *because *they pick on us for indulgences

Is there a spot then in Purgatory for Catholics who do not turn the other cheek???

 

[Javl]

In honor of today, Oct. 25 being Reformation Sunday I wanted to cite an old article from the NY times
nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html
The article mentioned that indulgences are returning to the Catholic church. I know they never really stopped but the article mentions the resurgence with Benedict XVI as Pope in offering them.
Another curiosity is the mention of “selling indulgences.” TRUE you cannot sell them (that was banned in 1567), BUT for a donation (combined with other acts) you can get one.

Funny Protestants get picked on like sixty for “sowing seeds” into peoples ministries on TV and “because of your gift of faith God will…” Can somebody tell me what the difference really is; other than one is Protestant and the other is Catholic and the wording is slightly different.

As far as I’m concerned they are both wrong. The trouble is that those “Protestants” on
TV use these so called “love gifts” to live high on the hog. e.g. The Baakers, etc. It’s
been shown that many of them are more concerned about making money to pay for their
$1000 suits, $500 shoes,etc. Have you noticed how natily they are all dressed? The only
true Protestant preacher on TV that I admire is Billy Graham. Donations on his program
do go for the works for which it is intended.

At the Catholic end of it, some priests do use the “donations” for personal use. It should
be known that no money can be involved in obtaining an indulgence. It can only be
earned and not given. Indulgences are earned through prayer, pennance, and acts of
charity alone, and no ther way.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Is there a spot then in Purgatory for Catholics who do not turn the other cheek???

Nope. They have time added to their sentences. :extrahappy:

:choocho:

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

As far as I’m concerned they are both wrong. The trouble is that those “Protestants” on
TV use these so called “love gifts” to live high on the hog. e.g. The Baakers, etc. It’s
been shown that many of them are more concerned about making money to pay for their
$1000 suits, $500 shoes,etc. Have you noticed how natily they are all dressed? The only
true Protestant preacher on TV that I admire is Billy Graham. Donations on his program
do go for the works for which it is intended.

At the Catholic end of it, some priests do use the “donations” for personal use. It should
be known that no money can be involved in obtaining an indulgence. It can only be
earned and not given. Indulgences are earned through prayer, pennance, and acts of
charity alone, and no ther way.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I agree with you 100 % on the TV preachers.

NOW
You contend that no money can be used for obtaining an indulgence. I would like to cite this article from EWTN. The Article poses the question if the indulgence would be still connected to an object such as a blessed crucifix if it is sold or if it is given for donation.
ewtn.com/Library/Liturgy/zlitur138.htm
In this article it states:
“The sale of a blessed object for personal gain, for all intents and purposes, reduces the object to the realm of the profane as an object of commerce, even if the buyer obtains it for a religious purpose. In such a case the indulgence would be lost.
On the other hand, if the object is exchanged for a set donation, offered for some religious or charitable purpose then, strictly speaking, we would not be speaking of a sale and the indulgence would be conserved. (My comment: money exchanged)
Thus the question hinges on the intent of the distributor. If the purpose is personal gain, then it makes no difference whether it is called a price or a donation: We are dealing with a sale. If the intention is charity, then we are dealing with a donation.”

It seems to me in either case money exchanges hands so money is being used in my mind to obtain an indulgence because it is given as a donation rather than by sale. Can you explain how EWTN can seemingly go against what is strictly forbidden in the catechism.

 

[Javl]

I agree with you 100 % on the TV preachers.

NOW
You contend that no money can be used for obtaining an indulgence. I would like to cite this article from EWTN. The Article poses the question if the indulgence would be still connected to an object such as a blessed crucifix if it is sold or if it is given for donation.
ewtn.com/Library/Liturgy/zlitur138.htm
In this article it states:
“The sale of a blessed object for personal gain, for all intents and purposes, reduces the object to the realm of the profane as an object of commerce, even if the buyer obtains it for a religious purpose. In such a case the indulgence would be lost.
On the other hand, if the object is exchanged for a set donation, offered for some religious or charitable purpose then, strictly speaking, we would not be speaking of a sale and the indulgence would be conserved. (My comment: money exchanged)
Thus the question hinges on the intent of the distributor. If the purpose is personal gain, then it makes no difference whether it is called a price or a donation: We are dealing with a sale. If the intention is charity, then we are dealing with a donation.”

It seems to me in either case money exchanges hands so money is being used in my mind to obtain an indulgence because it is given as a donation rather than by sale. Can you explain how EWTN can seemingly go against what is strictly forbidden in the catechism.

I have no answer for that. I think that it is wrong to do it and I most certainly would ** not** engage in anything of that sort. Maybe they’re following the “Sola Scriptura” path and
interpreting the catechism to suit their purposes. In my opinion it is things like this that need to be cleaned up within the Church since I’m sure it is what keeps many Protestants
away from the Church.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

padrej:

May I ask a personal question? Will you be swimming the Tiber and submitting to Rome?
I pray that you do for Pope Benedict can sure use a person like you. Too many of our
bishops ( in my opinion ) are acting contrary to the teachings of Jesus, against the
magisterium, and ignoring cannon law. I guess they are either impressed with their
position or drunk with power ( shades of the middle ages! ).

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Padrej]

padrej:

May I ask a personal question? Will you be swimming the Tiber and submitting to Rome?
I pray that you do for Pope Benedict can sure use a person like you. Too many of our
bishops ( in my opinion ) are acting contrary to the teachings of Jesus, against the
magisterium, and ignoring cannon law. I guess they are either impressed with their
position or drunk with power ( shades of the middle ages! ).

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I sent a personal answer to you. But I will agree with you that there are many on both sides of the fence acting contrary to the teaching of Jesus and drunk with power.
J

 

[Padrej]

padrej:

May I ask a personal question? Will you be swimming the Tiber and submitting to Rome?
I pray that you do for Pope Benedict can sure use a person like you. Too many of our
bishops ( in my opinion ) are acting contrary to the teachings of Jesus, against the
magisterium, and ignoring cannon law. I guess they are either impressed with their
position or drunk with power ( shades of the middle ages! ).

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

There is an old saying in Protestantism that may apply here to your part also on the clergy acting out of line. “If the church does not like the pastor, it only has to pray for the one that it has.”
It would seem that if your clergy, with all due respect, are getting away from the teachings (historic) of the Catholic faith (Purgatory, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, homosexual issues etc) it is time to get praying for them. It is also time for the faithful to raise up and say “no more, we want our church back.” This is what is splitting the Anglican/Episcopal church as the congregations are doing this too little too late. I pray that this will not be the case with the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Javl]

There is an old saying in Protestantism that may apply here to your part also on the clergy acting out of line. “If the church does not like the pastor, it only has to pray for the one that it has.”
It would seem that if your clergy, with all due respect, are getting away from the teachings (historic) of the Catholic faith (Purgatory, adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, homosexual issues etc) it is time to get praying for them. It is also time for the faithful to raise up and say “no more, we want our church back.” This is what is splitting the Anglican/Episcopal church as the congregations are doing this too little too late. I pray that this will not be the case with the Roman Catholic church.

Yes, all we can do is pray. But as history has proven, the Catholic Church has had its splits, division, heresies, etc. but has prevailed these 2000 years because Jesus said that “…'the gates of hell shall not pevail” and “Lo, I am with you always”. He has been true to His word. Many a Pope and Cardinal has tried to destroy the Church from within. And especially during the middle ages when so many of the clergy were more interested in money and power than the spiritual health of its members. How many drunken clergy
tried to say mass, only to pass out at the altar from drinking all the Sacramental wine
before and during the consecration. With all its trials and tribulations the Church has held true. So, I do not worry about it.

I look at all this as Satan’s final attempt to destroy Christendom before the end. No matter how hard he tries, he will never succede.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[happilycatholic]

Hi Friends!

I tend to look at Purgatory in two different ways: Mercy & Cleansing. They go hand-in-hand.

In one way, Purgatory is God’s ultimate form of mercy on His people. God has known from the beginning that we are imperfect. However, in His infinite love for us, He wants us to be with Him in Heaven. We cannot enter into His presence in our imperfect form. So we must endure Purgatory in preparation to be with the Father.

Purgatory is not punishment, but rather endurance of our own iniquities.

It’s one more chance because we always take the human route, to be something more than human. To be perfect. To be Christ-like.

In this way, I welcome my chance to endure Purgatory and to finally be with the Father.

God Bless,

~Tonya

 

[catholicsuffer]

I agree with you 100 % on the TV preachers.

NOW
You contend that no money can be used for obtaining an indulgence. I would like to cite this article from EWTN. The Article poses the question if the indulgence would be still connected to an object such as a blessed crucifix if it is sold or if it is given for donation.
ewtn.com/Library/Liturgy/zlitur138.htm
In this article it states:
“The sale of a blessed object for personal gain, for all intents and purposes, reduces the object to the realm of the profane as an object of commerce, even if the buyer obtains it for a religious purpose. In such a case the indulgence would be lost.
On the other hand, if the object is exchanged for a set donation, offered for some religious or charitable purpose then, strictly speaking, we would not be speaking of a sale and the indulgence would be conserved. (My comment: money exchanged)
Thus the question hinges on the intent of the distributor. If the purpose is personal gain, then it makes no difference whether it is called a price or a donation: We are dealing with a sale. If the intention is charity, then we are dealing with a donation.”

It seems to me in either case money exchanges hands so money is being used in my mind to obtain an indulgence because it is given as a donation rather than by sale. Can you explain how EWTN can seemingly go against what is strictly forbidden in the catechism.

You know, I really do not understand all of this discussion. I am not a Roman Catholic but certainly enjoy giving donations to Mother Teresa organizations and I sure do not expect anything in return or even want anything other than a prayer which is much, much, much stronger then any indulgence, at least in my opinion. motherteresa.org

 

[Javl]

Hi Friends!

I tend to look at Purgatory in two different ways: Mercy & Cleansing. They go hand-in-hand.

In one way, Purgatory is God’s ultimate form of mercy on His people. God has known from the beginning that we are imperfect. However, in His infinite love for us, He wants us to be with Him in Heaven. We cannot enter into His presence in our imperfect form. So we must endure Purgatory in preparation to be with the Father.

Purgatory is not punishment, but rather endurance of our own iniquities.

It’s one more chance because we always take the human route, to be something more than human. To be perfect. To be Christ-like.

In this way, I welcome my chance to endure Purgatory and to finally be with the Father.

God Bless,

~Tonya

You are right. Purgatory is a cleaning and purifcation, much like what the Jews of old used to do. In this case, though, it is a purgation, purification, and refinement by fire
as a goldsmith refines the gold. We are refined and purified so that we can enter God’s Kingdom and live with Him in Eternal Bliss forever.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

You know, I really do not understand all of this discussion. I am not a Roman Catholic but certainly enjoy giving donations to Mother Teresa organizations and I sure do not expect anything in return or even want anything other than a prayer which is much, much, much stronger then any indulgence, at least in my opinion. motherteresa.org

To understand the discussion and the subject of Purgatory, I recommmend that you read up on it. Whether or not you believe in it is your choice. In the CC we believe indulgences are obtained through prayer, acts of charity, and works of mercy. It is a good act of charity that you perform in donating to the Mother Teresa organizations since almost all of the money given goes to help the poor. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem