How is 2 Maccabees 12:43-46 evidence for Purgatory?

[Padrej]

Hi Friends!

I tend to look at Purgatory in two different ways: Mercy & Cleansing. They go hand-in-hand.

In one way, Purgatory is God’s ultimate form of mercy on His people. God has known from the beginning that we are imperfect. However, in His infinite love for us, He wants us to be with Him in Heaven. We cannot enter into His presence in our imperfect form. So we must endure Purgatory in preparation to be with the Father.

Purgatory is not punishment, but rather endurance of our own iniquities.

It’s one more chance because we always take the human route, to be something more than human. To be perfect. To be Christ-like.

In this way, I welcome my chance to endure Purgatory and to finally be with the Father.

God Bless,

~Tonya

Tonya
You mention that Purgatory is NOT punishment. I would like to cite the following from the catechism:

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10, Heading 2
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. 84

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10, Heading 3
1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 11
1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

Can you kindly explain how your belief in Purgatory NOT being punishment runs counter to the catechism of the Catholic church which you belong to.
With all due respect It would seem to me that what you wrote seems nice but does not line up 100% with the teachings of the Catholic church as the catechism does teach that Purgatory is punishment.

 

[happilycatholic]

Tonya
You mention that Purgatory is NOT punishment. I would like to cite the following from the catechism:

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10, Heading 2
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. 84

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10, Heading 3
1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 11
1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

Can you kindly explain how your belief in Purgatory NOT being punishment runs counter to the catechism of the Catholic church which you belong to.
With all due respect It would seem to me that what you wrote seems nice but does not line up 100% with the teachings of the Catholic church as the catechism does teach that Purgatory is punishment.

Dear padrej:

Notice here:

This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin.

here:

purified of the punishments for sin.

and here:

remission of temporal punishment

the focus of these references is not punishment, but rather the alternative suffered without the purification. The two forms of punishment in your first reference should have given it away: eternal punishment and temporal punishment.

A simple diagramming of the sentences should help.

For this reason, my interpretation of the Catechism is correct and definitely not an attempt to be ‘nice’. Just informative. Although, I do consider myself a nice person.

God Bless,

~Tonya

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Right after that, however, the catechism refers to the “two punishments.” This implies that purgatory is one of them. Purgatory may free you from the temporal punishment, but that is because thw hole concept of purgatory is to finish whatever was unfinished temporally. Punishment as used by God has a corrective effect, so it is not “wrong” to view purgatory as such, or even “distasteful.” 1 corinthians 3:15 also refers to punishment, so I would personally concede the point to Padre on this.

God Bless.

 

[Padrej]

Right after that, however, the catechism refers to the “two punishments.” This implies that purgatory is one of them. Purgatory may free you from the temporal punishment, but that is because thw hole concept of purgatory is to finish whatever was unfinished temporally. Punishment as used by God has a corrective effect, so it is not “wrong” to view purgatory as such, or even “distasteful.” 1 corinthians 3:15 also refers to punishment, so I would personally concede the point to Padre on this.

God Bless.

Thank you Nathan for making my point.
In the Catechism under the definition of indulgence:

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?
**“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, **which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

If there was no punishment in Purgatory, there would be no need for indulgences. Although it is nice to think that Purgatory is not punishment, you cannot accept and indulgence for yourself or anyone else if there was no punishment in Purgatory. Keep those plenary indulgences coming you will get there.

 

[Javl]

happilycatholic

Putting my two cents worth in:
Purgatory IS punishment for commiting the sin, even though the sin is forgiven. It
is like being incarcerated for a crime even though you have repented of the crime and it has been forgiven.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Eleichem

 

[Padrej]

happilycatholic

Putting my two cents worth in:
Purgatory IS punishment for commiting the sin, even though the sin is forgiven. It
is like being incarcerated for a crime even though you have repented of the crime and it has been forgiven.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Eleichem

IN MY OPINION much of today’s society suffers from the post Clinton/Lewinski scandal where Clinton said to the media and those coming after him, “I said I have repented of the sin, why to you keep trying to punish me?” It seems like we live in a generation that believes that if I repent/confess my sin I do not have to do any type of restitution for it. Has anyone noticed even apologies have changes from “I am sorry” to “I regret that it happened” so as not to take on any guilt or responsibility for your own actions. One day there will be a great rude awakening for those who think this way because the punishment will be severe!!! :twocents:

 

[happilycatholic]

Right after that, however, the catechism refers to the “two punishments.” This implies that purgatory is one of them. Purgatory may free you from the temporal punishment, but that is because thw hole concept of purgatory is to finish whatever was unfinished temporally. Punishment as used by God has a corrective effect, so it is not “wrong” to view purgatory as such, or even “distasteful.” 1 corinthians 3:15 also refers to punishment, so I would personally concede the point to Padre on this.

God Bless.

No dear, listen to what you yourself are saying. You are referring to the punishments that are remedied by Purgatory, not Purgatory.

Everybody slow down and READ.

Purgatory is not punishment. It is remedy “for” the punishment.

See this statement here:

"This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. "

Temporal punishment is NOT Purgatory. It is an unhealthy attachement to something that is bad for your soul.

How could “Purgatory free one form what is called the “Purgatory” of sin”? I’m sorry, but you are all incorrect on this one.

Purgatory is a REMEDY for temporal punishment. That is why the quote references a “freeing from” the punishment.

There are two elements to being obsolved of sin. There is the eternal punishment attached to sin and the temporal punishment attached to sin.

ABSOLUTION frees us from both. See:

Absolution is the remission of sin, or of the punishment due to sin, granted by the Church.

If you are not absolved of a sin you will have both eternal AND temporal punishment attached to your soul due to said sin. Punishment is NOT an act, but rather the state your soul is in due to the sin you’ve committed.

So, Purgatory frees us from whatever temporal punishment was attached to a sin that for whatever reason, we were not totally obsolved from.

There are several reasons that a person may not be properly obsolved of a sin. One is lack of form in your confession. Another is lack of sincerety to repent.

Thus, Purgatory.

God Bless.

 

[happilycatholic]

Purgatory is NOT temporary Hell people. It’s Baptism by fire. Read Scripture.

Love.

 

[Padrej]

No dear, listen to what you yourself are saying. You are referring to the punishments that are remedied by Purgatory, not Purgatory.

Everybody slow down and READ.

Purgatory is not punishment. It is remedy “for” the punishment.

See this statement here:

"This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. "

Temporal punishment is NOT Purgatory. It is an unhealthy attachement to something that is bad for your soul.

How could “Purgatory free one form what is called the “Purgatory” of sin”? I’m sorry, but you are all incorrect on this one.

Purgatory is a REMEDY for temporal punishment. That is why the quote references a “freeing from” the punishment.

There are two elements to being obsolved of sin. There is the eternal punishment attached to sin and the temporal punishment attached to sin.

ABSOLUTION frees us from both. See:

Absolution is the remission of sin, or of the punishment due to sin, granted by the Church.

If you are not absolved of a sin you will have both eternal AND temporal punishment attached to your soul due to said sin. Punishment is NOT an act, but rather the state your soul is in due to the sin you’ve committed.

So, Purgatory frees us from whatever temporal punishment was attached to a sin that for whatever reason, we were not totally obsolved from.

There are several reasons that a person may not be properly obsolved of a sin. One is lack of form in your confession. Another is lack of sincerety to repent.

Thus, Purgatory.

God Bless.

This is leaving me scratching my head at the fact that you a Catholic do not even espouse what the catechism CLEARLY teaches on Purgatory.
The catechism teaches that Purgatory is PART OF the absolution process. The Absolution wipes the sin away but you still have to do the “time for the crime” so to speak. This is where indulgences come in. Through indulgences the time in Purgatory is eliminated.
So if we are posting and quoting what is clearly stated in the catechism, how can we “all be wrong” as you so contend.

 

[happilycatholic]

Thank you Nathan for making my point.
In the Catechism under the definition of indulgence:

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10
1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.
What is an indulgence?
**“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, **which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.”
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

If there was no punishment in Purgatory, there would be no need for indulgences. Although it is nice to think that Purgatory is not punishment, you cannot accept and indulgence for yourself or anyone else if there was no punishment in Purgatory. Keep those plenary indulgences coming you will get there.

The indulgence has the same effect as absolution. It takes away the punishment. It removes the punishment from the soul.

Look at it this way, what do you think hell is? The ‘punishment of hell’? It’s the state of your soul. It’s the absence of God. Because you are impure, you cannot ‘be’ in the presence of God. This is not God’s doing, it just is. God does not punish people with hell. They punish themselves by choosing to be separated from God by sin.

Indulgences remove the temporal punishment from your soul so that you may be in the presence of God. The punishment is ALREADY there. Your soul is already anquishing with punishment the moment you commit the sin dear. At that moment, you separate yourself from the Holy Spirit.

If these things are not remedied, they will become eternal. The punishment will then be everlasting upon your soul.

Temporal merely means a punishment that can be removed. The difference between eternal punishment and temporal punishment is not synonymous with hell (eternal) and Purgatory (temporary) although this would be an easy application.

But rather punishment, as I said is a state of being for your soul, not a place or an act. Eternal punishment is applied in hell and temporal punishment is applied at the moment the sin occurs until it is remedied by indulgence or Purgatory.

The person will ‘feel’ the temporal punishment in Purgatory until it is cleansed fromt he soul, but Purgatory is the remedy for said punishment. It’s kind of like a snake bite. You will feel the effects until the antivenom remedies the effects of the bite.

See?

 

[happilycatholic]

This is leaving me scratching my head at the fact that you a Catholic do not even espouse what the catechism CLEARLY teaches on Purgatory.
The catechism teaches that Purgatory is PART OF the absolution process. The Absolution wipes the sin away but you still have to do the “time for the crime” so to speak. This is where indulgences come in. Through indulgences the time in Purgatory is eliminated.
So if we are posting and quoting what is clearly stated in the catechism, how can we “all be wrong” as you so contend.

Okay, first of all, nothing you state here negates my position or the position of “my Church”.

“The catechism teaches that Purgatory is PART OF the absolution process”

Yes, this is what I said. Purgatory IS part of the cleansing process which is what absolution does, AGAIN: " Absolution is the remission of sin, or of the punishment due to sin" Catholic Encyclopedia.

I’m not sure how that one is in conflict with anything I’v said. In fact, I’ve stated as much.

Next…

"The Absolution wipes the sin away but you still have to do the “time for the crime” so to speak. "

This is where you start to veer off course Professor (If I may). You keep referring to a tangible ‘act’ such as ‘doing time for the crime’. Temporal punishment BEGINS AT THE MOMENT YOU SIN. So how on earth are we ‘DOING TIME’ in Purgatory or hell for this?

You need to study catholic theology and not try to apply Protestant theology to our doctrines. This also happens a lot with those that convert from Protestantism to catholicism.

PURGATORY IS NOT TEMPORARY HELL. It is not sub-hell or pre-hell or almost hell.

It is a purification much like Baptism. You are seeing Purgatory with mortal eyes. It is not a ‘place’. Remember as catholics, when we die we go straight to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. So how are we to arrive at this place without our bodies?

IT IS NOT A ‘PLACE’ OF TORTURE. These places are states of being outside time and space. They exist in eternity. So, please do not apply earthly theories of relativity to them. They are not relative to our earthly, mortal, or tangible state of being. They are outside of those.

It is certain that Purgatory will be painful. So was Christ’s crucifixion. Was that punishment? Nope, nope.

God has ways of cleansing us that are painful but necessary.

 

[Padrej]

The following are taken from Catholic Prayer books and missals and are prayers for those in Purgatory that mention “torment” and “judgment” and Purgatory being a “prison of pain.”

Prayer for Mercy on the Souls in Purgatory

My Jesus, by the sorrows Thou didst suffer in Thine agony in the Garden, in Thy scourging and crowning with thorns, in the way to Calvary, in Thy crucifixion and death, have mercy on the souls in purgatory, and especially on those that are most forsaken; do Thou deliver them from the dire torments they endure; call them and admit them to Thy most sweet embrace in paradise.
Our Father, Hail Mary, Eternal Rest, etc.

PRAYER FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY
O holy souls in Purgatory, Who are the certain heirs of heaven, Souls most dear to Jesus As the trophies Of his Precious Blood, And to Mary, Mother of Mercy, Obtain for me Through your intercession The grace to lead a holy life, To die a happy death And to attain To the blessedness Of eternity in heaven.
Dear Suffering Souls, Who languish in your Prison of pain And long to be delivered In order to praise And glorify God in heaven, By your unfailing pity Help me at this time,
[State your intention(s) here…]
That I may obtain relief And assistance from God.
In gratitude For your intercession I offer to God on your behalf The satisfactory merits Of all my works And sufferings of this day/week/month. (The time that you determine.)

PRAYER FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY
O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have mercy on them.
Be not severe in Your judgments, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames.
And, Merciful Savior, send Your angels to conduct them to a place of refreshment, light and peace.
Amen.

My Jesus, by the sorrows You suffered in Your agony in the Garden, in Your scourging and crowning with thorns, in Your journey to Calvary, in Your crucifixion and death, have mercy on the souls in purgatory, and especially on those that are most forsaken; deliver them from the torments they endure; call them and admit them to Your most sweet embrace in paradise, where You live with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen

Is it small wonder that after reading these that it is not popular to think of Purgatory as a “nice” place?

 

[happilycatholic]

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10, Heading 2
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin.

Okay, let’s take this step by step and maybe we can come to some consensus on this. The above passage from the Catechism as referenced by Padrej states exactly what punishment ‘is’.

On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.

Okay, here the Catechism tells us that we can endure temporal punishment here on earth, so that in itself cannot be synonomous with Purgatory. In other words, temporal punishment does not = Purgatory. Also notice that Purgatory is referred to here as a ‘state’ and obviously it is the state of your soul, not your body.

This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.

Here the Catechism is referring back to the two types of punishment, not Purgatory. Otherwise, it would have already mentioned hell as the other one. (Notice that hell is not mentioned here AT ALL at the eternal punishment) There is no contrast between hell and Purgatory (thus eternal punishment and ‘temporary’ punishment going on here.

A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. 84

In this statement, the punishment is said to have been removed. “no punishment would remain”. Now, how is punishment (supposedly Purgatory) going to remove punishment?

Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 10, Heading 3
1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

“those who are expiating their sins in purgatory”

I pulled this out for a very important observation. Notice that the Catechism uses the term “expiating” which means “atonement” rather than punishment. I think that’s telling.

I hope this helps explain my point of view on the subject.

God Bless

 

[happilycatholic]

The following are taken from Catholic Prayer books and missals and are prayers for those in Purgatory that mention “torment” and “judgment” and Purgatory being a “prison of pain.”

Prayer for Mercy on the Souls in Purgatory

My Jesus, by the sorrows Thou didst suffer in Thine agony in the Garden, in Thy scourging and crowning with thorns, in the way to Calvary, in Thy crucifixion and death, have mercy on the souls in purgatory, and especially on those that are most forsaken; do Thou deliver them from the dire torments they endure; call them and admit them to Thy most sweet embrace in paradise.
Our Father, Hail Mary, Eternal Rest, etc.

PRAYER FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY
O holy souls in Purgatory, Who are the certain heirs of heaven, Souls most dear to Jesus As the trophies Of his Precious Blood, And to Mary, Mother of Mercy, Obtain for me Through your intercession The grace to lead a holy life, To die a happy death And to attain To the blessedness Of eternity in heaven.
Dear Suffering Souls, Who languish in your Prison of pain And long to be delivered In order to praise And glorify God in heaven, By your unfailing pity Help me at this time,
[State your intention(s) here…]
That I may obtain relief And assistance from God.
In gratitude For your intercession I offer to God on your behalf The satisfactory merits Of all my works And sufferings of this day/week/month. (The time that you determine.)

PRAYER FOR THE SOULS IN PURGATORY
O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have mercy on them.
Be not severe in Your judgments, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames.
And, Merciful Savior, send Your angels to conduct them to a place of refreshment, light and peace.
Amen.

My Jesus, by the sorrows You suffered in Your agony in the Garden, in Your scourging and crowning with thorns, in Your journey to Calvary, in Your crucifixion and death, have mercy on the souls in purgatory, and especially on those that are most forsaken; deliver them from the torments they endure; call them and admit them to Your most sweet embrace in paradise, where You live with the Father and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen

Is it small wonder that after reading these that it is not popular to think of Purgatory as a “nice” place?

Purgatory is not meant to be “nice”. It’s meant for atonement. No one is arguing that Purgatory will be a walk in the park.

 

[happilycatholic]

The following are taken from Catholic Prayer books and missals and are prayers for those in Purgatory that mention “torment” and “judgment” and Purgatory being a “prison of pain.”

Hmm, Christ’s crucifixion could be described in this way too…



Atonement hurts.

 

[Padrej]

Okay, first of all, nothing you state here negates my position or the position of “my Church”.

“The catechism teaches that Purgatory is PART OF the absolution process”

Yes, this is what I said. Purgatory IS part of the cleansing process which is what absolution does, AGAIN: " Absolution is the remission of sin, or of the punishment due to sin" Catholic Encyclopedia.

I’m not sure how that one is in conflict with anything I’v said. In fact, I’ve stated as much.

Next…

"The Absolution wipes the sin away but you still have to do the “time for the crime” so to speak. "

This is where you start to veer off course Professor (If I may). You keep referring to a tangible ‘act’ such as ‘doing time for the crime’. Temporal punishment BEGINS AT THE MOMENT YOU SIN. So how on earth are we ‘DOING TIME’ in Purgatory or hell for this?

You need to study catholic theology and not try to apply Protestant theology to our doctrines. This also happens a lot with those that convert from Protestantism to catholicism.

PURGATORY IS NOT TEMPORARY HELL. It is not sub-hell or pre-hell or almost hell.

It is a purification much like Baptism. You are seeing Purgatory with mortal eyes. It is not a ‘place’. Remember as catholics, when we die we go straight to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. So how are we to arrive at this place without our bodies?

IT IS NOT A ‘PLACE’ OF TORTURE. These places are states of being outside time and space. They exist in eternity. So, please do not apply earthly theories of relativity to them. They are not relative to our earthly, mortal, or tangible state of being. They are outside of those.

It is certain that Purgatory will be painful. So was Christ’s crucifixion. Was that punishment? Nope, nope.

God has ways of cleansing us that are painful but necessary.

To your question of How are we doing the Time please refer to the post on Catholic prayers and the catechism that should answer your question very well. It is your church’s beliefs not mine.

I have NEVER said Purgatory is “temporary Hell” please do not put words into my mouth if you please.

If the cross was not a punishment for Christ what was it? Whose sins did he take on? He was sinless. Explain that statement in light of the prophesy He fulfilled of Isaiah 53. When Jesus was hanging on the cross the good thief commented that he was being “unjustly punished.” If it was not punishment what was it, being tickled to death?

With all due respect I have studied Catholic theology through a Catholic apologetics course from Catholic U and I am not applying one jot or tiddle of Protestant thought to Catholic theology. I am not arguing with the definition from the catholic encyclopedia of absolution as it states the same in the catechism but the catechism goes further as I have already posted and have other Catholics.
From appearances madam, when you point out the sins of others they are the ones most evident in self; so the comment about me adding Protestant thought to Catholic doctrine must have come from……….

 

[happilycatholic]

To your question of How are we doing the Time please refer to the post on Catholic prayers and the catechism that should answer your question very well. It is your church’s beliefs not mine.

These prayers are not “beliefs of my Church”. They are simply prayers and who knows who wrote them. It doesn’t matter. Our doctrines are contained in the Scripture and defined in the Catechism.

I have NEVER said Purgatory is “temporary Hell” please do not put words into my mouth if you please.

 

[Padrej]

Tonya
Lets get to basics.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Two Judgments
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

SOOO Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

Temporal punishment
That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him “to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow” until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promise” (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God’s enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Venial sins
All sins are not equal before God, nor dare anyone assert that the daily faults of human frailty will be punished with the same severity that is meted out to serious violation of God’s law. On the other hand whosoever comes into God’s presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His “eyes are too pure, to behold evil” (Habakkuk 1:13). For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.

Please tell me where I have added anything to Catholic theology here, but be very careful in your looking it over.

 

[happilycatholic]

Here is the Church’s definition of Purgatory:

the Catechism of the Catholic Church, instituted by Pope John Paul II in response to the Second Vatican Council’s call for a renewal in catechesis, explicitly teaches about Purgatory in articles 1030-1032 & 1472. The second edition includes the term “Purgatory” in its glossary, defining it as:
A state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God’s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven.

There may be some confusion among catholics (and maybe non-catholics) about this “doing time” thing. I found this:

The vision of Purgatory as a waiting room or a jail cell has somewhat fallen out of favor among post-Vatican II theologians. One reason is the awareness that Purgatory is experienced before the resurrection of our bodies. Without a body, a soul does not experience time in the same way we do now.

This is why we do not rely on “theology”. It is not necessarily doctrine and can change. Obviously, the new theology is stated as above in the catechism.

Also, I found a very good reference to ‘punishment’ to help us define it. It was related that punishment for sin amounts to consequences. In otherwords, the consequences are immediate, not down the road.

 

[happilycatholic]

Tonya
Lets get to basics.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

Two Judgments
When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that “it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment” (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment” (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Luke 12:59).

SOOO Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

“Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful” (Denzinger, “Enchiridon”, 983).

Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

Temporal punishment
That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him “to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow” until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the “land of promise” (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God’s enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Venial sins
All sins are not equal before God, nor dare anyone assert that the daily faults of human frailty will be punished with the same severity that is meted out to serious violation of God’s law. On the other hand whosoever comes into God’s presence must be perfectly pure for in the strictest sense His “eyes are too pure, to behold evil” (Habakkuk 1:13). For unrepented venial faults for the payment of temporal punishment due to sin at time of death, the Church has always taught the doctrine of purgatory.

Gotta go to lunch. I’ll respond though. Maybe we can reach some agreement .

That would make me happy.