How is Bayonetta Satanic?

[Lost_Wanderer]

Also they reference and share book names and links on the website. I will try to find it share it with you if you like. I generally don’t like sending links to anyone that may lead inadvertently to their inticement in the occult.

Go ahead. That way I can make the biggest highlight on why fantasy is not the same as reality. Don’t think I haven’t seen and read similar books like that myself.

But I digres. Again you are trying to separate an archetype (the mage, witch, magician, sorcerer) in these fantasy stories from their deeper meanings and properties.

Why shouldn’t I? It’s my imagination and I can do whatever I want with it. Tolkien would’ve done the same.

If in my fantasy world, mages serve as the party’s nukers, healers, status inflicters, or last-minute-teleporters (in case a boss fight starts getting hairy), then that’s what they are. They are not to be confused with bizarre members of different, neopagan religions in our world.

How they have attained their magical power does not change the properties or morality of someone practicing divination or necromancy. Having “conversations” with “dead witches” and astral travel are not concepts or practices condoned by Christianity the last time I checked (both are present in Potter novels btw). Even some of the words used are from actual witchcraft.

Nobody converses with the dead. Read the books for pete’s sake. Even Dumbledore said it himself that no spell can awaken the dead.

Divination itself is even seen as hogwash with only true seers being gifted and rare.

You are seeing one aspect being “changed” in these stories (them being born with powers as opposed to learing how to use them), which some occultists actually believe is true anyway, and you run with it saying it is not a depiction or parody of real witchcraft.

Let me drive it into your head one more time, the difference between being born with something and learning it.

When you are born with powers, it is the result of heredity. It is hardwired into the gene pool. Do I also have to lecture you on a basic biology topic? This goes for both superheroes and mages. Therefore, they ARE the same and are not like your obscure examples where an outside party is involved.

Not just you friend. You are one of many who act this way about “fictional” magic. The truth has to be more important than both our careers because the truth is alive and it is Jesus Christ himself who gave you your gift to use in building up His Kingdom not promoting decorated and diguised copies of what He detests.

I’m not about to go writing childish stories of angels and apparitions all to appease your false image of Christ.

Where I come from in Trinidad and there is alot of witchcraft in parts of the countryside. It’s called Obeah in Trinidad. It came from Africa by the slaves and includes a mixture of ancient African occult practices and south american occultism. There is a belief in associated spirit creatures with the dark arts like Papa Bois, Soucouyant and Bakuman. They bare some similarities to other “mythical” creatures from greek and Irish folklore. For example there is one belief by some of the practitioners that for couples who cannot conceive, the Obeah practitioner can help them bare a child on condition that the soul of the child is given in exchange for conception. A guard or mark is placed on the child’s person (neck or other part of the body) to keep the child in spiritual slavery.

And your point is…? If we’re trying to compare experiences with actual indigenous practices, two of my professors study pre-colonial tribes. They’ve shown and had us research material such as rituals, beliefs, folk songs etc. In fact, our group thesis had us studying the tales of the Obo Manobo which in turn had us looking into their religious-tribal practices.

What I observed and studied is a far cry from what fantasy fiction has always depicted. Their shamans certainly can’t cast Chain Lightning or cause an Earthquake.

Some people are not aware of the reality that alot of this entertainment is based HEAVILY on actual ancient beliefs and practices of occultism. “Fictionalizing” the truth does not make it any less true. Remember that fitcion is the opposite of fact not truth.

Fact = Truth

What is wrong with you?

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

harrypotterforseekers.com/index.php

This is just one of many of the websites which are designed by their “open minded” creators to give the reader a bit more “insight” into the inner workings on the Potter work.

This site is no more credible than sites that try to divine Christian allegory from Harry Potter. Read up Stanley Fish’s literary theory regarding interpretive communities if you want to know why you shouldn’t take such sites seriously.

 

[kinja]

I say that every day as I see how indifferent members of the Body of Christ are to how the culture of death and the occult has been gaining increased popularity with many unsuspecting people. It is sad even when some of our religious leaders seem to think it better to be more interested in “smoothing” than in telling the truth like it is (calling a spade a spade.)

 

[kinja]

This site is no more credible than sites that try to divine Christian allegory from Harry Potter. Read up Stanley Fish’s literary theory regarding interpretive communities if you want to know why you shouldn’t take such sites seriously.

There are not many websites online in which all the information contained therein are 100% factual or true. That doesn’t mean that everything is untrue. Research the terms pointed out with your own authoritative sources (the themes and symbols and even words used in Harry Potter) and you will find that they have their roots in ancient alchemy.

Research each of the terms that are referenced from Harry Potter and their true meaning from any authority on divination and see that he is correct on most counts. Dig deeper instead of looking at the surface for fear that YOUR world will fall apart. If it does then it was not real in the first place yes?

By the way the world you like to describe as YOURS I doubt you know much about because you do not know how it came about. Do your history into arcane and alchemical arts and see why your beloved world is not a product of imagination as much as it is of pagan realities. The foundation of most of what you look at as fantasy (HP, LOTR, Shannara - which I loved reading, and many more) has it’s roots in an belief system which, much like Hinduism, has no singlular authority or doctrine yes, but has the same basic foundation on the same lie which constituted the dark underbelly of every civilization since Lucifer spoke to Eve until now. Magic, sorcery, witchcraft, obeah, Wizardry etc. All connect to one common demoninator…man’s will be done through the supernatural.

A witch is a witch is a witch. Paint them whatever color you want (white or black).

 

[kinja]

And you believe this lunatic?

I don’t take what this “person” says at face value jsut the same as I take nothing you post at face value. I either know if what he is saying is true based on my own research or test the validity of his claims against my own sources as should we all.

Wicca and other Neopagan cults are nothing more than modernized version of past myths that had never been consistent to begin with. They don’t have a leading authority. They don’t have a core set of doctrines. They don’t have their own counterpart to our Bible (no, the Satanic Bible doesn’t count).

Yes and no. Wicca and others are connected in that they all point in a particular direction. Away from Jesus and to oneself as a god and source of truth in your own right. Any movement that does this is a veritable vehicle of Satan. The new age movement is just what you say. It is not about one solid set of beliefs the way Catholicism is. There are many paths and no singular authority (much like Hinduism in a sense). It is about mixing some truth with a majority of ancient arcane pagan mystical beliefs which are grounded in using the will and ritual to effect change without direct physical effort.

Look I’ve seen plenty of Wiccans, Neopagans, and Pantheists during my days in YouTube, they are nothing more than religious nomads wandering around books and personal opinions with hardly anything solid to base their views on.

LOL @ YouTube. Unless you are willing to read actual books on magic and divination to learn about the foundations of the new age movement and associated groups like neopagans, wiccans etc. you will be posting blindly here.

Uh no. If I take a stick and pretend that it shot fire, it doesn’t change the stick. I have simply taken something, put in my imagination and turned it into something else.

Learn about the history and folklore (beliefs) of witchcraft in Europe before you talk about imagination. The belief in the abilities of the witch through the use of the “wand” is ancient.

That’s my point. Those two sticks are not the same and should not be treated the same (which is your argument). Something tells me you really have trouble distinguishing between fiction and fact. I suggest you go see a therapist.

And the cross depicted in the Passion of the Christ is most likely not the way the actual cross of Our Lord’s crucifixian looked or held His body but it represents the same thing. You are grasping at straws here I think. My therapist for stressful people is adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

Again, real witches can’t fly on brooms or shoot sparks out of wands. They don’t play Quidditch. The Daily Prophet doesn’t exist. Hogwarts is not real.

Symantics and shallow points galore. Apart from witches on brooms and wands shooting stuff (which are ancient witch folklore not JKR’s imagination) you are using the instances of JKR actually making stuff up (quidditch) to render the entire story of HP as a work of her imagination. Again in The Passion Jesus is shown remembering making a chair/stool while doing carpentry in Nazareth. We have no proof that that is anything more than the script writer’s imagination but yet that does not render the fact that Jesus was a carpenter as fiction does it?

To say all of that is similar to little pantheist clubs convening in little English houses, then going out to walk/sing in circles in the middle of the night/at the crack of dawn shows you need to put your money where your mouth is.

Is that the only example of “occultism” you know? You must be living in a bubble or something to think that these little new age practices are what magic and sorcery is all about.

See this is where you’re supposed to draw the line between what’s real and what’s not. The fact that you don’t only gives me more cause to wonder if you’re really all right upstairs.

Insults will get you nowhere Lost Wanderer but I know you cannot help yourself. It is your nature apparently so all I can do is pray from you to overcome that stronghold and ask you to pray for me to overcome mine. Nevertheless, my point is not that what these witches believe is real. Far from it. My point is that is what they “believe” to be real the same as we believe in the true presence of Jesus in the form of the Eucharist.

Of course there is no such thing as a ‘neutral’ supernatural force in our world. Why? Because it’s our world. It’s not the fantasy world where the cosmology is different.

God created our world this way. Say it with me, it’s our world.

I would prefer the term “real world” not “our world”. We don’t own it nor are we in control of it. We are stewards it belongs to God but right now Satan is the ruler of it (read John 14:30, 2 Corinthians 4:4). Try reading your Jerusalem Bible as much as you read comics and you might learn something. Satan has his hand in everything here.

Also the fantasy world you speak of has it’s roots and history in much more than a vivid imagination. I’m not saying it is real anymore than I think that a unicorn or beast with 7 heads and 10 horns is “real”. You see where I’m coming from? No? Then buy a Catholic Bible and read it sometime.

 

[kinja]

Why shouldn’t I? It’s my imagination and I can do whatever I want with it. Tolkien would’ve done the same.

If in my fantasy world, mages serve as the party’s nukers, healers, status inflicters, or last-minute-teleporters (in case a boss fight starts getting hairy), then that’s what they are. They are not to be confused with bizarre members of different, neopagan religions in our world.

Tell me something. Is there any reason why you use the same name “mage” instead of invent your own word for this group of people? Don’t you think that would have been more creative than to use the same words and abilities as every other writer? I’m not a fantasy writer so I’m just asking.

Nobody converses with the dead. Read the books for pete’s sake. Even Dumbledore said it himself that no spell can awaken the dead.

What? Didn’t Harry converse with Dumbledore in the form of a portrait after he died?

Divination itself is even seen as hogwash with only true seers being gifted and rare.

Hogwash only to non believers like Jesus being present in the Eucharist to non believers. Try being objective. Some people actually believe magic is real and I don’t consider them to be mad just misguided like some people who believe that fantasy has no truth in it.

Let me drive it into your head one more time, the difference between being born with something and learning it.

When you are born with powers, it is the result of heredity. It is hardwired into the gene pool. Do I also have to lecture you on a basic biology topic? This goes for both superheroes and mages. Therefore, they ARE the same and are not like your obscure examples where an outside party is involved.

So if HP is born with this ability then why the need for spells, symbols, wands and incantations and the like? Why are not these “powers” explained in terms of (pseudo)-science and the real world as is x-men and evolution by accident?

I’m not about to go writing childish stories of angels and apparitions all to appease your false image of Christ.

Not appease me pal. Appease God. You think that occult themes are protagonists wielding such powers is more exciting and alluring to the reader. I get it. Don’t try to justify what you do by saying that my “image” of Jesus Christ is false. Our Lord wants us to be as children are so what you speak is the truth although you mock that very truth by refering to it in such a derogatory manner. There is nothing wrong with angels or apparaitions of Our Lady. You much prefer child digestible occultism then that is your choice.

And your point is…? If we’re trying to compare experiences with actual indigenous practices, two of my professors study pre-colonial tribes. They’ve shown and had us research material such as rituals, beliefs, folk songs etc. In fact, our group thesis had us studying the tales of the Obo Manobo which in turn had us looking into their religious-tribal practices.

What I observed and studied is a far cry from what fantasy fiction has always depicted. Their shamans certainly can’t cast Chain Lightning or cause an Earthquake.

You are totally missing the point. Have you ever yourself seen the precious Body of Christ bleed during a mass? Have you seen stigmata actually forming before your eyes? Most people have not yet some choose to believe that this is true and others doubt it’s authenticity. If I made up a fantasy novel in which a hero called Gadre Gio used to bleed from his hands and feet and after he died his body did not decay. Would that be so creative and imaginative? No it’s based on actual beliefs that I would have heard or read about. Same applies to the beliefs and practices of those involved in witchcraft.

Fact = Truth

The context is that of Philosophy not science. We are having a discussion about spiritual and supernatural things so it makes no sense confining the discussion to the physical only. Magic can be described as metaphysical and fantasy has not real bearing on science. Fact in this case can only refer to verified information about past or present circumstance or event which are presented as objective reality (wikipedia).

Even though the word truth is used here as well, the context of truth in this discussion has to be that of philosophy not natural science since the Bible for instance is not a book you will find in the fact or fiction section of a bookstore but in the religious section. The Bible is not a book of fact or fiction but of truth. I can’t find out how to create potassium nitrate crystals from the Bible but I can find that in a “science” book. Are you with me?

The story of Adam and Eve is not a story of scientific fact because a scientist did not write it nor did he test and study all that is written therein. But it is a story of deep truth. You see what I mean. Fact is not equal to truth. The Aesop’s fable of the fox and the grapes is a fable that tells a deeper truth but it cannot be said to be based on fact as fox’s cannot talk and there is no evidence that they think as humans do when they cannot get something that they wish to have.

What is wrong with you?

Take the log out of your own eye.

 

[kinja]

At least you seem to understand that. This is why I think Potter is dangerous for young people.

 

[kinja]

LOL @ “lost all credibility”. Orcs, dwarves, pointy eared elves, dark and light wizards, talking “tree-creatures” (ents), staves and hats included and other magical creatures are not unique ideas to LOTR would you not agree?

They are ideas based on magical folklore. Written down in the anals of superstitious Mediterranean traditions for eons. I am not saying that the story itself is not one with Biblical parallels and was not written to tell a deeper truth. I am simply referencing the similarities and roots of the world used to convey this story.

Potter is very different to LOTR in it’s emphasis on magic and witchcraft I think which is why I am not focusing on LOTR at all. It is a single reference to some of the material therein to show that the some of the ideas are not new and have a common history.

 

[kinja]

Point taken. I said the Mediterranean when I should have said Europe.

Incidental matters? So does this mean that the ends justify the means? The protagonist (Potter) uses forbidden power to save his friends is a good thing? I disagree with you there.

Good point.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

By the way the world you like to describe as YOURS I doubt you know much about because you do not know how it came about. Do your history into arcane and alchemical arts and see why your beloved world is not a product of imagination as much as it is of pagan realities. The foundation of most of what you look at as fantasy (HP, LOTR, Shannara - which I loved reading, and many more) has it’s roots in an belief system which, much like Hinduism, has no singlular authority or doctrine yes, but has the same basic foundation on the same lie which constituted the dark underbelly of every civilization since Lucifer spoke to Eve until now. Magic, sorcery, witchcraft, obeah, Wizardry etc. All connect to one common demoninator…man’s will be done through the supernatural

Just because you draw your creative sources from ancient myths does not mean you glorify them. You obviously don’t have an imagination because when I say one uses an imagination, that includes deriving from past works (including ancient ones such as mythology).

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I don’t take what this “person” says at face value jsut the same as I take nothing you post at face value. I either know if what he is saying is true based on my own research or test the validity of his claims against my own sources as should we all.

The point is the likes of Aleister Crowley is not a definitive source of all things Wiccan. In fact there is no definite source. Wicca and other neopagan religions promote nothing more than cafeteria spirituality. You believe they do this and that to their children so that they can be born with ‘special powers’.

I say hogwash. Where’s your proof?

LOL @ YouTube. Unless you are willing to read actual books on magic and divination to learn about the foundations of the new age movement and associated groups like neopagans, wiccans etc. you will be posting blindly here.

I have. It doesn’t change the fact that fantasy mages and actual ‘witchcraft/wizards’ are waaaay different.

Learn about the history and folklore (beliefs) of witchcraft in Europe before you talk about imagination. The belief in the abilities of the witch through the use of the “wand” is ancient.

Ancient, mythological farce is what you mean. Does not change the fact that once you fictionalize something, it ceases to be the same thing. A toy gun doesn’t become a hyper blaster just because I pretend it is. It doesn’t make them the same.

Use logic. It might save your sanity someday.

And the cross depicted in the Passion of the Christ is most likely not the way the actual cross of Our Lord’s crucifixian looked or held His body but it represents the same thing.

What are you talking about? Of course they represent the same thing! What is it with you and comparing apples with oranges?

Symantics and shallow points galore. Apart from witches on brooms and wands shooting stuff (which are ancient witch folklore not JKR’s imagination)

It doesn’t matter. Real witches still can’t do that. Period.

you are using the instances of JKR actually making stuff up (quidditch) to render the entire story of HP as a work of her imagination. Again in The Passion Jesus is shown remembering making a chair/stool while doing carpentry in Nazareth. We have no proof that that is anything more than the script writer’s imagination but yet that does not render the fact that Jesus was a carpenter as fiction does it?

Bare assertions and false comparisons galore. Aside from the fact that scene is basically wishful speculation, what fantasy authors do with myths and folklore is take it and change into something totally UNLIKE the source. It is nothing on the weak level of wishful thinking found Passion of the Christ.

It is one thing to imagine Jesus doing actual carpentry work based on the fact that he was a carpenter and another thing entirely to make wands shoot sparks and smoke just because ancient witch folklore used wands. The former sounds plausible. The latter is pure fiction and fantasy, nothing like the real world.

It’s like saying just because you see movies where samurai can unleash slashing chi-waves with their katana, means real samurai were capable of doing that.

Is that the only example of “occultism” you know? You must be living in a bubble or something to think that these little new age practices are what magic and sorcery is all about.

Seeing as how I’m talking to a guy who can’t tell fiction from fact, this makes me the real authority here.

Unless you have proof of witches, real witches, being capable of shooting fire and summoning zombies with wands, you’ve got nothing.

Nevertheless, my point is not that what these witches believe is real. Far from it. My point is that is what they “believe” to be real the same as we believe in the true presence of Jesus in the form of the Eucharist.

Does not make them any less delusional.

I would prefer the term “real world” not “our world”.

Real world, our world. It doesn’t matter. Quit arguing pointless semantics, you know what I mean.

Also the fantasy world you speak of has it’s roots and history in much more than a vivid imagination.

Myths are nothing more than a product of human imagination. Whatever you call satanic stems from the belief system that followed them. Separate the two, it’s what we did in our Mythology class.

By the way, I suggest taking such a class instead of telling people to read the Bible if they wanna know more about fantasy.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Tell me something. Is there any reason why you use the same name “mage” instead of invent your own word for this group of people? Don’t you think that would have been more creative than to use the same words and abilities as every other writer? I’m not a fantasy writer so I’m just asking.

It’s tradition. It helps identify with the genre in the same manner other job classes such as warrior, rogue, and cleric do. Heck I use ‘mage’ interchangeably with sorcerer, wizard, warlock even.

What? Didn’t Harry converse with Dumbledore in the form of a portrait after he died?

No. That portrait is a different construct entirely. It’s the equivalent to a complex program in science fiction where a hologram or interface emulates the personality and look of a dead person. You want an example? Night at the Museum 2

Hogwash only to non believers like Jesus being present in the Eucharist to non believers. Try being objective. Some people actually believe magic is real and I don’t consider them to be mad just misguided like some people who believe that fantasy has no truth in it.

No, hogwash in the context of the books. Then again, you’ve never read the books so it’s not surprising.

So if HP is born with this ability then why the need for spells, symbols, wands and incantations and the like?

Again, it’s part of the cosmological system. It’s how their world works.

Why are not these “powers” explained in terms of (pseudo)-science and the real world as is x-men and evolution by accident?

They are. What do you think the classes are for? There have been plenty of references in all seven books towards the cosmology that governs magic. Read the books yourself for goodness sake.

Not appease me pal. Appease God.

Correction: A false image of God.

False Image = You

Therefore, I am not about to rethink my career because of someone who uses the same rehashed anti-fantasy arguments like you.

Don’t try to justify what you do by saying that my “image” of Jesus Christ is false.

Yes I do because I don’t see why God or Jesus would give a hoot about something completely made-up.

Our Lord wants us to be as children are so what you speak is the truth although you mock that very truth by refering to it in such a derogatory manner.

Really? Our Lord wants us to be naive little toddlers who have yet to truly grasp the beauty and mystery of human civilization and existence? I don’t think so.

There is nothing wrong with angels or apparaitions of Our Lady.

Oh sure there’s nothing wrong only that they’re bland, preachy, and don’t really belong in the Entertainment section.

You much prefer child digestible occultism then that is your choice.

No I’d rather a child read something that stirs and adds to his/her imagination once Bible-Study class is over.

If I made up a fantasy novel in which a hero called Gadre Gio used to bleed from his hands and feet and after he died his body did not decay. Would that be so creative and imaginative? No it’s based on actual beliefs that I would have heard or read about. Same applies to the beliefs and practices of those involved in witchcraft.

No they don’t. You know why your story is not creative or imaginative? Because you didn’t change anything.

Fantasy authors do. They change A LOT of things.

The context is that of Philosophy not science. We are having a discussion about spiritual and supernatural things so it makes no sense confining the discussion to the physical only.

Says who, you? Science and Philosophy go hand in hand. You can’t keep on with the latter if it’s not substantiated by the former. Here’s an excerpt from my university’s textbook on Philosophy of the Human person. It refers to the social sciences but the logic behind it applies to all philosophies and their sciences.

Nevertheless, social philosophy and the social sciences, though distinct, help each other. The philosopher’s insights are many times substantiated by the facts provided by the scientist, and the scientist impelled to probe into a social fact by the insight of a philosopher. The scientist’s methodology contains certain philosophical presuppositions that would be the business of the philosopher to unearth and criticize. Likewise, the philosopher’s understanding of social reality would remain abstract and unfounded without the findings of the social sciences. - Dr. Manuel Dy, Jr., Ph.D.

Fact is a form of truth. Therefore:

Fact = Truth

Get over it.

Take the log out of your own eye.

Says a guy who’s got a skyscraper in his, lodged all the way to his brain so that he can’t tell fact from fiction.

 

[kinja]

It’s tradition. It helps identify with the genre in the same manner other job classes such as warrior, rogue, and cleric do. Heck I use ‘mage’ interchangeably with sorcerer, wizard, warlock even.

You contradict yourself. If you are following a tradition then that would make your material bland and uncreative to some degree I think. Using the same name and giving them powers sounds so original. You are retelling an old theme with your own stories is seems.

No, hogwash in the context of the books. Then again, you’ve never read the books so it’s not surprising.

Honestly I could not get very far in the book because I think it has poisonous potential for our younger population. And that concerns me alot especially that I was enjoying reading it like a Wendy’s burger laced with cianide.

Therefore, I am not about to rethink my career because of someone who uses the same rehashed anti-fantasy arguments like you.

I’m not trying to make you rethink your career. I’m interested in finding out the truth and spreading it. I try not to put blinders on due to fear that I won’t be able to INDULGE as I would like, when looking at certain topics. You should try taking off your blinders sometime too instead of living in that crystal ball.

Yes I do because I don’t see why God or Jesus would give a hoot about something completely made-up.

God does give a hoot when anything or anyone separates His children from Himself. The material is not what is dangerous but the way in which it is treated. Context my friend. Making something abominable like witchraft (which in HP bears too much similarity to european magic as described in lore as well as historic and religious accounts to be a coincidence) out to be the hero’s tool to a protagonist in a story for children is sending the wrong message to impressionable minds. God cannot be pleased with that.

Really? Our Lord wants us to be naive little toddlers who have yet to truly grasp the beauty and mystery of human civilization and existence? I don’t think so.

You think the beauty of human civilization can be grasped by reading and writing fantasy fairy tales? You must be living in a crystal ball for real.

Oh sure there’s nothing wrong only that they’re bland, preachy, and don’t really belong in the Entertainment section.

If there was an iota of creativity and imagination, a “bland” and “preachy” topic could be made into an exciting adventure for the reader I think. But I guess because creativity is lacking some people have to stick to old ideas and concepts with slight modifications to make them seem “original”. I get it now.

You know the funny thing for me is I used to feel the same way about concepts like the crucifixion, Mary, angels and saints. But the more I grew spiritually the more I started feeling excited by them and EWTN was not as boring as it used to be anymore. We’ve allowed the world to turn our perspective of exciting and healthy vs scary and poisonous on it’s head I think. This is dangerous esp. for our children.

No I’d rather a child read something that stirs and adds to his/her imagination once Bible-Study class is over.

And that’s exactly where our enemy is waiting. Outside bible study class. Bible study class in itself should stir the imagination and should be a way of life not just a weekly event. We need to move out of the mindset of boundaries for religious “duty”.

It is up to Catholic parents to live a life and show their chldren ways to enjoy themselves using our own Catholic culture as well.

No they don’t. You know why your story is not creative or imaginative? Because you didn’t change anything.

Fantasy authors do. They change A LOT of things.

At least I changed the name of the man didn’t I. Give me some credit for that
I would like us fto focus on Potter since I don’t think all fantasy work falls into the same danger category as this does for me.

Can you give an example in HP of something that is changed from anything that existed before in folklore or real practical magic? I really want to know.

Says who, you? Science and Philosophy go hand in hand. You can’t keep on with the latter if it’s not substantiated by the former. Here’s an excerpt from my university’s textbook on Philosophy of the Human person. It refers to the social sciences but the logic behind it applies to all philosophies and their sciences.

Natural science is what I meant not social sciences. They are both based on very different methodologies and rules. I didn’t think I would have to explain that.

Fact is a form of truth. Therefore:

Fact = Truth

Get over it.

You seem not to understand the distinction between context and meaning. So maybe we should take a look at that before we examine the difference bewteen fact and truth. Let me give an example to start this off: Transubstantiation is truth to me. It is not fact in terms of science because it cannot be proved to be physically true. Hence “real” truth (not the humanists’ version of it) we believe reuires faith to be realised. Fact does not require the same but instead the scientific method is all that is necessary to “prove” a “fact”.

Says a guy who’s got a skyscraper in his, lodged all the way to his brain so that he can’t tell fact from fiction.

I didn’t expect something THAT puerile from you. Sure I’ll take the skyscraper out of my eye Lost. Thanks alot.

 

[kinja]

The point is the likes of Aleister Crowley is not a definitive source of all things Wiccan. In fact there is no definite source. Wicca and other neopagan religions promote nothing more than cafeteria spirituality. You believe they do this and that to their children so that they can be born with ‘special powers’.

I say hogwash. Where’s your proof?

I have. It doesn’t change the fact that fantasy mages and actual ‘witchcraft/wizards’ are waaaay different.

Ancient, mythological farce is what you mean. Does not change the fact that once you fictionalize something, it ceases to be the same thing. A toy gun doesn’t become a hyper blaster just because I pretend it is. It doesn’t make them the same.

Use logic. It might save your sanity someday.

What are you talking about? Of course they represent the same thing! What is it with you and comparing apples with oranges?

It doesn’t matter. Real witches still can’t do that. Period.

Bare assertions and false comparisons galore. Aside from the fact that scene is basically wishful speculation, what fantasy authors do with myths and folklore is take it and change into something totally UNLIKE the source. It is nothing on the weak level of wishful thinking found Passion of the Christ.

It is one thing to imagine Jesus doing actual carpentry work based on the fact that he was a carpenter and another thing entirely to make wands shoot sparks and smoke just because ancient witch folklore used wands. The former sounds plausible. The latter is pure fiction and fantasy, nothing like the real world.

It’s like saying just because you see movies where samurai can unleash slashing chi-waves with their katana, means real samurai were capable of doing that.

Seeing as how I’m talking to a guy who can’t tell fiction from fact, this makes me the real authority here.

Unless you have proof of witches, real witches, being capable of shooting fire and summoning zombies with wands, you’ve got nothing.

Does not make them any less delusional.

Real world, our world. It doesn’t matter. Quit arguing pointless semantics, you know what I mean.

Myths are nothing more than a product of human imagination. Whatever you call satanic stems from the belief system that followed them. Separate the two, it’s what we did in our Mythology class.

By the way, I suggest taking such a class instead of telling people to read the Bible if they wanna know more about fantasy.

I just realised something. As if your argument wasn’t subjective and biased enough you quote Mahou Sensei Negima in your slogan/signature??? You support the use of fictional magic because you think it’s cool, fine we can disagree there, but in addition to promoting the occult this anime cartoon is rated R for profanity and nudity is it not?

I’m really disappointed but not surprised. Your passion for “fictional magic” makes sense now to me. You have apparently been totally brainwashed by this stuff.

I’ll pray for you and you can pray for me too to get over my own vices.

God bless.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You contradict yourself. If you are following a tradition then that would make your material bland and uncreative to some degree I think. Using the same name and giving them powers sounds so original. You are retelling an old theme with your own stories is seems.

Originality is subjective. The same goes for creativity. Clearly the world of art and literature is not some place you belong.

Honestly I could not get very far in the book because I think it has poisonous potential for our younger population. And that concerns me alot especially that I was enjoying reading it like a Wendy’s burger laced with cianide.

Yes and clearly we see how well that decision has made the case for you argumentation on this thread.

Thanks for proving my point. Like every opponent of fantasy you continue to bark about things you have no clue about it. In the manner of Socrates, I hereby label you a fool who thinks himself wise in matters where he is not.

I try not to put blinders on due to fear that I won’t be able to INDULGE as I would like, when looking at certain topics. You should try taking off your blinders sometime too instead of living in that crystal ball.

The only one with blinders on is you. You can’t tell fantasy from reality. That much has been proven. All you’ve done is make false comparisons and dodge the issue whilst throwing insults.

God does give a hoot when anything or anyone separates His children from Himself. The material is not what is dangerous but the way in which it is treated. Context my friend. Making something abominable like witchraft (which in HP bears too much similarity to european magic as described in lore as well as historic and religious accounts to be a coincidence) out to be the hero’s tool to a protagonist in a story for children is sending the wrong message to impressionable minds. God cannot be pleased with that.

You keep insisting that a fictionalized version of ancient myths somehow separates children from God yet have not provided a shred of proof. I have given you arguments in support of clearly distinguishing fantasy from fact. You have not addressed them.

In response all you do is make a bare assertion that ‘God does give a hoot’.
Honestly, you’re nothing but a parrot.

You think the beauty of human civilization can be grasped by reading and writing fantasy fairy tales? You must be living in a crystal ball for real.

Literature and myth are classic features of any civilization. Admit it, you’ve never taken a class on a subject so who are you to say I live in a crystal ball.

I’m sure you would love to tell Tolkien the same thing because he valued myth and fairy stories even more than I did.

If there was an iota of creativity and imagination, a “bland” and “preachy” topic could be made into an exciting adventure for the reader I think. But I guess because creativity is lacking some people have to stick to old ideas and concepts with slight modifications to make them seem “original”. I get it now.

Oh yes, sure. Nothing more entertaining than a book that tells you on page one that it’s a piece of propaganda out to drive a message into people’s heads. Hm-hmm…

Incidentally, I’ve been reading plenty of children’s books about lives of the saints found in my library and then comparing them to manga as well classic works like Dracula and Lord of the Rings. The only good thing I can say about the saint books is I now have a Catholic source for parody material. In fact, that’s what I’ve been working on right now actually: a fantasy fic that pokes fun at the likes of you and speak in the same rhetoric.

On the other hand, to say modifications in traditional fantasy archetypes are slight shows the grand hole in your brain when it comes to the topic. Just from playing DnD alone, I’ve seen how mages can easily subvert popular stereotypes. Some want to be nukers, others healers, other status-inflicters. In anime, I’ve seen mages take tanking roles such as magical knights, rune swordsmen, and combat magicians.

Then again, you don’t read fantasy because you’re deluded that it’s poison so to everyone else, I suggest you don’t wast time reading anything this kinja person has to say about the topic.

You know the funny thing for me is I used to feel the same way about concepts like the crucifixion, Mary, angels and saints. But the more I grew spiritually the more I started feeling excited by them and EWTN was not as boring as it used to be anymore. We’ve allowed the world to turn our perspective of exciting and healthy vs scary and poisonous on it’s head I think. This is dangerous esp. for our children.

Nice speech but I can get a similar one from an obsessed science geek when he talks about studying mathematical physics. Just because you find religion to be a source of entertainment doesn’t mean it is for everyone. Heck, there are even times when you can even offend religion in that manner. It’s the same way in reverse. Making religion out of entertainment is a sign of moral decay.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

And that’s exactly where our enemy is waiting. Outside bible study class. Bible study class in itself should stir the imagination and should be a way of life not just a weekly event.

The only thing the Bible does to stir the imagination are images of plagues, the apocalypse, and description of bizarre, multi-headed creatures. I think anyone can see how easily it’s milked dry.

Stick to putting religion in its proper box. It’s not as tiny as you think.

At least I changed the name of the man didn’t I. Give me some credit for that

How does 0.000001 points sound?

I would like us fto focus on Potter since I don’t think all fantasy work falls into the same danger category as this does for me.

HP is the same as plenty of fantasy works out there. Clearly I’ve delved more into fantasy than you so you have no excuse. It’s my word over yours.

Can you give an example in HP of something that is changed from anything that existed before in folklore or real practical magic? I really want to know.

Let’s see… Quidditch, Chocolate Frogs, spells like Lumos. There’s also the fact that none of these exist in ‘real practical magic’.

Oh and we’ll have discard folklore as that is pure fiction as well. They’re in the same category as HP.

Natural science is what I meant not social sciences. They are both based on very different methodologies and rules. I didn’t think I would have to explain that.

Concept is still the same or are you even reading my posts? Differences in methodologies matter little. The fact remains that scientific reasoning can be scrutinized with philosophy. But on the other hand, we can’t have philosophies remain unsubstantiated by science.

You seem not to understand the distinction between context and meaning. So maybe we should take a look at that before we examine the difference bewteen fact and truth. Let me give an example to start this off: Transubstantiation is truth to me. It is not fact in terms of science because it cannot be proved to be physically true. Hence “real” truth (not the humanists’ version of it) we believe reuires faith to be realised. Fact does not require the same but instead the scientific method is all that is necessary to “prove” a “fact”.

You’re comparing rectangles to squares. It does not change the fact that FACT by its very nature is truth. Not all truth is limited to scientific fact but all facts are truth. In the same manner, not all rectangles are squares but all squares are rectangles.

Deal with it.

Truth = Fact

I didn’t expect something THAT puerile from you. Sure I’ll take the skyscraper out of my eye Lost. Thanks alot.

Sorry it’s still there and calling me puerile is a compliment compared to someone who thinks he can criticize my fantasy creativity even though he has zero knowledge of the subject.

I just realised something. As if your argument wasn’t subjective and biased enough you quote Mahou Sensei Negima in your slogan/signature??? You support the use of fictional magic because you think it’s cool, fine we can disagree there, but in addition to promoting the occult this anime cartoon is rated R for profanity and nudity is it not?

Right and you cite the rated R movie Passion of the Christ (for gory, graphic scenes, mature themes) and claim to be the holy one here? Honestly, not only is this all just one windy ad-hom, it’s actually rather hypocritical.

By the way, seeing as how I’ve actually read it all and you haven’t, there’s more to its story than ‘profanity and nudity’.

I’m really disappointed but not surprised. Your passion for “fictional magic” makes sense now to me. You have apparently been totally brainwashed by this stuff.

Riiight… I know attend a coven and have secretly discarded my Catholic faith purely because I like reading fantasy manga.

I’ll pray for you and you can pray for me too to get over my own vices.

I doubt prayers are the only things you need to get over your vice of criticizing fantasy with your delusions. You need a qualified therapist, seriously.

 

[Providence_777]

I doubt prayers are the only things you need to get over your vice of criticizing fantasy with your delusions. You need a qualified therapist, seriously.

Wow, therapists are more powerful than God!?!?

So God can’t do it on his own?

Man, I’ve been wasting sooo much time praying. I had no idea that God wasn’t enough.

When did this happen?

I’ve been managing my arthritis, I thought about praying for Gods healing. I know now, to talk to a therapist so God can assist him in heal my knees.

Oh and yeah, I would like to know which of the other sites had anti-Catholic content.
One was pointed out, but the others I don’t know of.

after that, I’m gone.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Wow, therapists are more powerful than God!?!?

So God can’t do it on his own?

What, you think God doesn’t point people to a therapist?

Oh and yeah, I would like to know which of the other sites had anti-Catholic content.
One was pointed out, but the others I don’t know of.

after that, I’m gone.

Go back and read, I’m done doing something that simple for you people.

 

[kinja]

Wow, therapists are more powerful than God!?!?

So God can’t do it on his own?

Man, I’ve been wasting sooo much time praying. I had no idea that God wasn’t enough.

When did this happen?

I’ve been managing my arthritis, I thought about praying for Gods healing. I know now, to talk to a therapist so God can assist him in heal my knees.

Oh and yeah, I would like to know which of the other sites had anti-Catholic content.
One was pointed out, but the others I don’t know of.

after that, I’m gone.

Just before my last response to the Lost one I didn’t believe we were dealing with someone who can think objectively about the material that he is immersed in. It is understandable. He is dependent on this stuff in more ways than one so he can’t see anything wrong with any fantasy because something designed purely for entertainment and which “fictionalizes” reality, to him, can have no influence on the reader or viewer because it is purely entertainment and based totally on imagination.

Like a drug addict some people can’t do without their vice and see nothing wrong with it.

Clearly this person is deluded and is not willing or able to think clearly and objectively about these concepts from the very fact that he sees it as acceptable to quote that nonsense about magic on his esignature. It’s from a cartoon which contains occult and objectionable material (profanity, nudity). Just a google search alone of this cartoon reveals how much the cartoon resembles soft porn or hentai. And he is advertising this garbage on every single of his posts on this Cathoolic forum for everyone (especially the young people) to see. This is what I mean by dangerous. Some people are so subverted and brainwashed by this stuff that they fail to see how they could be leading others astray.

To some people anything and everything is good as long as the person promoting it is not dressed up in horns and a pitchfork. They can’t see the good and bad in the things they like only the good. They need prayers because therapy cannot help someone who does not want to be helped. Only God can do that through intercession of the church.

Check out Fr. Barron’s YouTube videos. He is quite learned and gives a very balanced Catholic opinion on alot of movies and current events. Won’t find much discussion on the occult though so you’ll need to do your own research for that.

Stay blessed and keep praying. I’ll pray for you too and Lost.

 

[kinja]

Wow, therapists are more powerful than God!?!?

So God can’t do it on his own?

Man, I’ve been wasting sooo much time praying. I had no idea that God wasn’t enough.

When did this happen?

I’ve been managing my arthritis, I thought about praying for Gods healing. I know now, to talk to a therapist so God can assist him in heal my knees.

Oh and yeah, I would like to know which of the other sites had anti-Catholic content.
One was pointed out, but the others I don’t know of.

after that, I’m gone.

And for someone to post something like this about God’s Word (the Holy Bible) on, again, a CATHOLIC website:

Oh yes, sure. Nothing more entertaining than a book that tells you on page one that it’s a piece of propaganda out to drive a message into people’s heads. Hm-hmm…

…it deserves our righteous anger. I take Fr. Corapi’s example right now though in that I refuse to have any further discourse with someone who slanders our church, Jesus or clergy. The sad thing is that some who do this, CLAIM to be Catholic but are just wolves in sheeps clothing (or witches in muggle’s clothing depending on your level of understanding).