How is mary a virgin?

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cornerstone:
what would be the purpose of the Virginity of Mary after Jesus came to this world?
The demonstration of perfect integrity in her relationship with God. A life wholly given, body and soul, to him alone and to the mission of God’s salvific work.
would the fact that Mary had sons after Jesus take away anything from Jesus work on the cross?
There is a great fittingness in the human parent of Our Lord matching the divine parent in giving her only begotten Son for the salvation of the world.
answer this two and you would understand why i was never the will of the catholic church for the scripture to reach our hands.
This is completely un-historical. It is dead wrong. It is not only untrue in an innocent sense of the word, it is flat-out, unmitigated libel. If you have repeated this popular canard without ascertaining its falsity for yourself, I encourage you to inform yourself properly of the facts. – And it belongs on another thread.
%between%
 
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jimmy:
I have spoken about this. Turtullian was also a heretic, so his opinion does not mean much. The rest of Christianity believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.
The Church only rejects Tertullian’s writings after he embraced Montanism. Before that, he was one of the Church’s most astute apologists, and those writings that were formulated during his fidelity to Catholicism are still the basis for any good apologetics study.
 
If Turtullian is good, then I would like to know what writing it is in that he believed Mary was not a perpetual virgin Giving a quote without giving the citation does not work.

Second, one opinion does not make any difference if it goes against the whole church.
 
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jimmy:
If Turtullian is good, then I would like to know what writing it is in that he believed Mary was not a perpetual virgin Giving a quote without giving the citation does not work.

Second, one opinion does not make any difference if it goes against the whole church.
Also, if a handful of Fathers disagreeing with a Church teaching disproves that teaching, then not a single Father correctly identifying all the books of Scripture disproves Sola Scriptura.

Scott
 
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
 
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
If we are wrong tell us what you do better. What church do you go to? Where can we go to see the truth for ourselves? There must be a list or something.
 
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
We are not ignorant,number one!We do not worship Mary that is a rediculous assertion!And guess what you have no more authority to interperate scripture than my chihuhua!You can explain to Jesus your disdain for Mary,you can explain why His mom was good enough for him but nothing as far as your concerned.One question, how would you feel if someone used yuour mom to breed then threw her away after her “function” was satisfied?Are we talking about God here or Hitler?:mad:
 
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
Excuse me but no one has called doulos crazy. So don’t slander.

Now you could bring up 10 verses, but the thing is they would have nothing to do with whether Jesus had brothers or not. I have seen all these verses several times along with many other people on this site.

They are not new attacks on the Church. St. Jerome and St. Augustine and several other saints in the history of the Church along with the great protestant reformers who professed the perpetual virginity of Mary. I gave a link to the St. Jerome treatis on the perpetual virginity. Look at what Calvin says about the idea of Mary having other children. Or Luther. Someone gave these quotes above.

It is a heresy of Helvidius that the protestants are repeating. They repeat it out of ignorance of what it is.
 
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
Yu don’t seem to have read **ANY ** of the posts in this thread.

If you had done, you would not be repeating lame arguments that have been dealt with many times over just in this thread! I posted a long post showing where the “brothers” of Jesus actually came from. Please go back, read it, and respond to the facts presented there. Then we might start to get somewhere.

That’s what you can do if you actually want to **discuss ** the matter - rather than just coming to the board to insult Catholics.
 
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
There was no word for brother in the language. The reason why the translators translated it like it is is because they do not know the relationship that the words draw. They are not going to just guess, so they translated it as brother. Brother can also be understood in a broader sense in english. Look at how black peope refer to eachother as brother. Do you think every black is related by blood and are literally brothers?

Look at when Abraham calls Lot brother. Guess what…Lot and Abraham weren’t brothers, Abraham was his uncle.

Please don’t use slander. We don’t like when false rumors are spread about us.

Have you ever even read anything Catholic, or do you only read the hate papers written by anti-Catholics? If you ever read a thing from a Catholic, and that includes all the early church fathers, you would know that not a word that you said was correct.

If you want to know who we worship, read the Nicene creed. That is a Catholic prayer.
 
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
So now that you have revealed the real reason that you have asked this question, why don’t you go back to Baptistboard.com where you belong, so you can continue the slander against Catholics.

Chum, like all the others who slander Catholics, you have just proved that you are totally ignorant of what Catholics believe. Instead of asking you tell us what we do. Fact is we have heard it all before. Fact is you are repeating the slander that is splashed around by the usual anti-Catholic bigots who make unsubstantiated allegations about Mary, who is not and never has been elevated to a position of goddess by the Catholic Church. Of course that is something that Jack Chick believes, so if I were you, I would throw away the Jack Chick tracts because the man does not know what he is talking about. Also forget all the other slander about pagan religions, because that just shows how petty some people can be in their attempts to accuse the Catholic Church of that which is not true.

BTW coming on as two people is not all that clever. How is it that you know the mind of Doulos1 unless you are the same person pretending to be someone else?

I will bet that this question was posed by someone teaching you to witness to Catholics. I can see that the ultimate goal in the question is to try and confuse the Catholics on the board, so that they will question what they have been taught.

Well sport, what you were not told is that Catholics do know the Scripture. It is not a priest who tells them what to believe because Catholics are not little children who are totally dependent upon another person. What you are not told by the person who is taking your apologetics class, is that when you pose a question like the one you posed, you will get to see all of the Scriptures that point to the fact that the Scripture does not state that Mary had other children.

If you are relying upon that one verse that says “until” then that is very foolish in my opinion. I discovered for myself that the Scripture tells me that the four men who are named as being kinsmen of Jesus are: Simon, Joseph (Joset), James the Less and Judas Thaddeus. At the same time, the lists of the Apostles state that Alphaeus, not Joseph is the father of both James the Less and Judas Thaddeus. Scripture also states that James the less and Joses are the sons of the other Mary. We provided the quotes from Scripture, yet you ignore those passages of Scripture because you have been erroneously told (or have probably read in the books written by Mr J. White, and Eric Svendsen) that the word “until” proves that Mary had other children.

You refuse to do the hard work and you do not check out the facts for yourself. Now be a good boy and go read your Bible and try to comprehend the information that has been provided to you. It is in Scripture that Mary did not have other children. There are no other children that are ever mentioned as being her children. One person only is named as her son, and that is Jesus.

MaggieOH
 
The Nicene Creed

We believe in one God, The Father the almighty.
Maker of Heaven and earth, of all the is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God,
Begotten not made, one in being with the Father, through whom all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the virgin Mary and became man, he suffered and died under pontius Pilot and was buried. On the thrd day he rose again in fullfillment of the scriptures. He is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come in glory to judge the living and the dead. His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the lord and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. Who is worshiped and glorified with the Father and the Son. Who spoke through the profits.

We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
We profess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins, and we look for the ressurection of the dead. Amen
 
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Axion:
Yu don’t seem to have read **ANY **of the posts in this thread.

If you had done, you would not be repeating lame arguments that have been dealt with many times over just in this thread! I posted a long post showing where the “brothers” of Jesus actually came from. Please go back, read it, and respond to the facts presented there. Then we might start to get somewhere.

That’s what you can do if you actually want to **discuss **the matter - rather than just coming to the board to insult Catholics.
Were ignorant Axion, why should he read the posts? He already knows everything the bible teaches since he is the ultimate arbiter of what is true and what is not. We should all just submitt to doulos1 and bloodwater.
 
Can you do anything besides point fingers and regurgitate the same, tired, old anti-Catholic fundamentalistic poo that we have been hearing in these forums since May of 2004?
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
 
Correction, there are no words in Aramaic for half-brother, step-brother, cousin, kinsmen, etc… So, all close family members were referred to as brother. James, often called the “brother of the Lord”, is traditionally considered an older step-brother of Jesus. It is said that Joseph was an oldre widow that was chosen to wed Mary and already had children at the time of his and Mary’s wedding.
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jimmy:
There was no word for brother in the language. The reason why the translators translated it like it is is because they do not know the relationship that the words draw. They are not going to just guess, so they translated it as brother. Brother can also be understood in a broader sense in english. Look at how black peope refer to eachother as brother. Do you think every black is related by blood and are literally brothers?

Look at when Abraham calls Lot brother. Guess what…Lot and Abraham weren’t brothers, Abraham was his uncle.

Please don’t use slander. We don’t like when false rumors are spread about us.

Have you ever even read anything Catholic, or do you only read the hate papers written by anti-Catholics? If you ever read a thing from a Catholic, and that includes all the early church fathers, you would know that not a word that you said was correct.

If you want to know who we worship, read the Nicene creed. That is a Catholic prayer.
 
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
man that is a textbook example of projection, or perhaps turnspeak if you do that on purpose. Doulos1’s frustration reveals more about disordered desires than ordered ones. If you consider that this is a catholic forum and see yourselves as invited guests into a friends house what does the guests frustration at the host reveal ?
we can tell you 10 times yet it means nothing when we tell you why the translators picked that word and you keep coming up with same old verse where the translators had the same limitations.

You give me just one divine power catholics believe Mary has and I’ll consider the worship Mary carpola. Otherwise my view remains that it is your desire that we worship Mary like a God lest you have so much less of that imaginary high ground to stand on while you tippee toe around our dialogue keeping your nose up in the air so the water doesn’t drown you. You might believe baptism requires full immersion but it doesn’t have to .
 
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bloodwater:
, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,
Being a virgin does not make one a goddess. Mary is not a goddess. You need to read your own scripture and not elevate her to that status.
 
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bloodwater:
you all have the ability to call doulos1 crazy because there are alot of you. doulos1 is frusterated with you because your so ignorant. i would mention about 10 verses that say Jesus had brothers but you would just bring up stuff like " there is no word for brother or sister in the bible" bluntly denying every translaters ability to say the correct words. i gave you one verse that you can not logically prove wrong. you worship mary like a god, let her go my friends, she was human like everyone else. she was merely a servant of the One Holy God like everyone that God chooses for his will. Jesus was the one who paid the price for your sins, worship him instead of making statues to the goddess mary, in effect defying the first commandment,

“you shall have no other god’s before me”
I have searched this entire thread and found no accusation that doulos1 is crazy (unless a post was deleted?). Doulos is frustrated because he/she has encountered Catholics who actually know what they believe and why.

As for no word for brother or sister in the Bible and “denying every translaters (sic) ability to say the correct words,” even Protestants do not extend the inerrancy of Scripture to include the translations.

Comments such as, “making statues to the goddess mary” reveal a willful, hostile, persistence in attacking on utterly false grounds something which you reject based on your personal interpretation of Scripture which, itself, is contrary to Scripture (2 Pet. 1:20)
 
This thread may be winding down, but I wanted to put my 2c in. To me one of the strongest confirmations that the Church teaches correctly about Mary’s ever-virginity is the answer to a simple question. When is it ever right for a woman to bear the children of two different fathers? Death of the first father is one case. Abandonment by the first father may be another. So then we ask:
  1. Did God die after Jesus was born?
  2. Did God abandon Mary after Jesus was born?
 
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doulos1:
Has it escaped your mind that the Bible no where says Joseph had a “first wife.” You can lay out conjecture all you want. The Scripture plainly teaches that:
  1. Mary and Joseph engaged in a marital relationship after the birth of Jesus. Matt. 1:25. No mention is made of other children of Joseph in Matt. 1 which as one of your members admit is the recollection of Joseph.
  2. That Jesus was Mary’s firstborn son, implying others afterword, (because there is a Greek word for only born son and the Holy Spirit did not use this word). Luke 2:7.
  3. That other children are listed amongst Mary as Jesus brothers and sisters Mark 6:3. To list them as brothers and sisters of Jesus would be quite sufficiant to show them as children of Mary. It would have been quite awkard for them to say “His brothers…the children of Mary.” It would have made no sense.
The normal, natural understanding of all these facts that these were children of Joseph and Mary after Jesus. If not why not simply:
  1. Omit the phrase “until she brought forth her firstborn son.” If the Holy Spirit had done this then there may have been room for your doctrine.
  2. Why not use the Greek word for only born son for Jesus instead of “firstborn.” If the Holy Spirit had used this word then the argument would have been settled, at least as it regards weather she had additional children.
  3. Why not use the Greek word for cousin instead of brother and sister. Luke certainly knew this word, and as a Greek would have used this if he knew that they were cousins.
All the evidence taken together shows that God teaches Mary was not perpetually a virgin and that your church and your popes are in error.
 
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