How is mary a virgin?

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doulos1:
Saying Mary is a virgin will not make her so. God has revealed after the birth of Jesus she did not remain a virgin. And all of your rantings will not make it so!
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God did not reveal it:tsktsk: Doulos1 revealed his own oppinion with no authority from God:p
 
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doulos1:
Great rationalization. Excellent R.C. reasoning. Keep it up and they will make you a priest and you can land on RC fantasy island! LOL
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Not Rationalisation - Science.

Read Einstein.

However your rancid and rabid hatred for the Church is beginning to show through clearly. You should consider carefully what force inspires such hatred and bitterness. These things are not fruits of the Spirit.
 
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doulos1:
So do you have a priest with you each time you read the Bible alone? Are you able to read the Bible alone?
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No Catholic needs a priest present to study scripture. As you know, from your in-depth study of Catholicism, the Church encourages Catholics to read scripture.

Every Catholic can read scripture. But ultimately with guidance from the Church. Here, as you know, even a priest being present wouldn’t necessarily help, for we are getting into the area of the Magisterium (Pope, Council, Bishops.)

A Catholic cannot espouse an interpretation of scripture that flatly contradicts an official dogma of the Church. In such a case, the Catholic must go with the superior guidance of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit.

Regarding Mary and “until”, you have heard rebuttals even including from Luther and Calvin. Perhaps you should consider the possibility that it is your private view that is in error. (I don’t think it’s your own personal view, in any event, but that of your leaders/church group.)

Getting back to reading scripture with/without a priest, I’d be more interested in you showing where, in the NT, Christians were running around with their personal copies of the NT, interpreting it all by themselves without any church guidance whatsoever.
 
A few points on this subject:

A. Jesus’s ENTIRE FAMILY went to Jerusalem for the Passover, in Luke 2.44. Mary, Joseph, Jesus and RELATIVES and friends. Although these relatives and friends are mentioned, there is NO MENTION of any other children. Since Jesus was twelve at the time, and anti-catholics on this board are claiming that Mary had at least SEVEN other surviving children apart from Jesus! at least one or two of them should have been mentioned here. Then we are to believe that both Mary AND Joseph abandoned these other extremely young children to go back to Jerusalem (a days journey) and search for Jesus for three days. If Mary had had other young children it is extremely unlikely she would have abandoned them. So not only are no other children mentioned, but neither Mary or Joseph ACT is if they had any other children.

B. While James and Joses are mentioned as Jesus’s “brothers” in Matthew 13:55, it is made clear in Mathew 27:56 and Mark 15:40 that their mother was Another Mary. Since both are named in the same book, without any further description, it is clear these are the same James and Joses/Joseph as in Chapter 13.

C. In John 19:25, the original Greek states. “But by he cross of Jesus the Mother of Him AND the sister of the Mother of Him, Mary the wife of Cleopas AND Mary the Magdalene.” The precise positioning of the ANDs makes it clear that Mary the Wife of Cleopas, is referred to as the Virgin Mary’s sister. Since we know no-one has two daughters and calls them BOTH Mary, we know that “sister” here does not mean sister, but “kinswoman”. The same would apply to “brother” with reference to Jesus.

D. If Jude/Judas were truly the brother of Jesus, why wouldn’t he say so? He identifies himself in his letter as brother of James, but significantly as SERVANT of Jesus. To have identified himself as Jesus’s blood brother would have added enormous weight to his epistle, but he doesn’t so identify himself here. We know the reason, because James and Joseph are identified as sons of the OTHER Mary in Matthew 27 and Mark 15. Judas then seems to be a son of this other Mary. So ANOTHER OF JESUS’s SO-CALLED “BROTHERS” IS ELIMINATED.

E. James “Brother of Jesus” is referred to as one of the APOSTLES by Paul. We know that neither of the Apostles named James was actually a Son of Mary.

F. If Mary had had other Children, why did Jesus break all Hebrew codes and place His Mother in John’s care?

G. The people of Nazareth refer to Jesus as “the son of Mary” (Mark 6:3), not as “a son of Mary”

H. If all the people listed as “Brothers” and “Sisters” of Jesus were actually siblings, Mary would have had to have had at least SEVEN surviving children **after ** Jesus (meaning about TWENTY babies considering infant mortality at the time)! Strange that NONE of these children appears or hinders Mary and Joseph from dropping everything to chase after Jesus when He is found in the temple at age 12.

I} With regard to the “firstborn” argument. Firstborn is a title, regardless of any subsequent offspring:

Exodus 35.19: The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

Does this mean that “only sons” are not to be redeemed?

J) Jesus was not illegitimate, as some here seem to want to try and make Him.

The idea that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God is nonsensical.
 
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Axion:
A few points:

A. Jesus’s ENTIRE FAMILY went to Jerusalem for the Passover, in Luke 2.44. Mary, Joseph, Jesus and RELATIVES and friends. Although these relatives and friends are mentioned, there is NO MENTION of any other children. Since Jesus was twelve at the time, and anti-catholics on this board are claiming that Mary had at least SEVEN other surviving children apart from Jesus! at least one or two of them should have been mentioned here. Then we are to believe that both Mary AND Joseph abandoned these other extremely young children to go back to Jerusalem (a days journey) and search for Jesus for three days. If Mary had had other young children it is extremely unlikely she would have abandoned them. So not only are no other children mentioned, but neither Mary or Joseph ACT is if they had any other children.

Yes because if the supposed Jesus to be among his relatives then the other children would have been as well. Mary would have left the other children in the care of these relatives to look of Jesus. She was not abandoning them, but they are not central to the narrative.

B. While James and Joses are mentioned as Jesus’s “brothers” in Matthew 13:55, it is made clear in Mathew 27:56 and Mark 15:40 that their mother was Another Mary. Since both are named in the same book, without any further description, it is clear these are the same James and Joses/Joseph as in Chapter 13.

Or the other Mary simply had children with the same name given by Mary to her children. The same names among families was common.

C. In John 19:25, the original Greek states. “But by he cross of Jesus the Mother of Him AND the sister of the Mother of Him, Mary the wife of Cleopas AND Mary the Magdalene.” The precise positioning of the ANDs makes it clear that Mary the Wife of Cleopas, is referred to as the Virgin Mary’s sister. Since we know no-one has two daughters and calls them BOTH Mary, we know that “sister” here does not mean sister, but “kinswoman”. The same would apply to “brother” with reference to Jesus.

It is interesting that there is a Greek word for kinswoman used by Luke. I don’t buy the “positioning” argument it is very weak linguistically and contextually.

D. If Jude/Judas were truly the brother of Jesus, why wouldn’t he say so? He identifies himself in his letter as brother of James, but significantly as SERVANT of Jesus. To have identified himself as Jesus’s blood brother would have added enormous weight to his epistle, but he doesn’t so identify himself here. We know the reason, because James and Joseph are identified as sons of the OTHER Mary in Matthew 27 and Mark 15. Judas then seems to be a son of this other Mary. So ANOTHER OF JESUS’s SO-CALLED “BROTHERS” IS ELIMINATED.

E. James “Brother of Jesus” is referred to as one of the APOSTLES by Paul. We know that neither of the Apostles named James was actually a Son of Mary.

Then why does not Paul call him a cousin of Jesus as he does call Mark a cousin of Barnabas if he knew him to be so? Especially since Paul was writing to Gentiles and not Jews!

F. If Mary had had other Children, why did Jesus break all Hebrew codes and place His Mother in John’s care?

Because his brothers were not yet believers.

G. The people of Nazareth refer to Jesus as “the son of Mary” (Mark 6:3), not as “a son of Mary”

Because the clause is a reference to a definite son of Mary not the whole family. If the subject had been Mary or the family then it would make sense to leave the article off. But the subject is Jesus as being part of a human family!

H. If all the people listed as “Brothers” and “Sisters” of Jesus were actually siblings, Mary would have had to have had at least SEVEN surviving children **after ** Jesus (meaning about TWENTY babies considering infant mortality at the time)! Strange that NONE of these children appears or hinders Mary and Joseph from dropping everything to chase after Jesus when He is found in the temple at age 12.

And if they were travelling in a band of extended family it would have been no problem at all!

I} With regard to the “firstborn” argument. Firstborn is a title, regardless of any subsequent offspring:

Exodus 35.19: The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. 20. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

Does this mean that “only sons” are not to be redeemed?

J) Jesus was not illegitimate, as some here seem to want to try and make Him.

Why would Jesus be illegtimate if Mary had other children?

The idea that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God is nonsensical.
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Not according to God!
 
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Axion:
Not Rationalisation - Science.

Read Einstein.

However your rancid and rabid hatred for the Church is beginning to show through clearly. You should consider carefully what force inspires such hatred and bitterness. These things are not fruits of the Spirit.
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So would you say that Luther and Calvin when they called your pope antichrist were really working for Satan?
 
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doulos1:
So would you say that Luther and Calvin when they called your pope antichrist were really working for Satan?
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Yes I am sure she or he would start a thread your off topic.Jesus was accused of being in league with the devil too,no servant is greater than his master,ours is Jesus.Mary is a virgin get on topic.:whistle:I will start a thread for you in apologetics.😛
 
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doulos1:
So would you say that Luther and Calvin when they called your pope antichrist were really working for Satan?
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That’s a topic for another thread. 😉
 
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doulos1:
Not according to God!
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I’ve remained a spectator in this thread, but I have to say without a doubt, that was absolutely the most pathetic response to the biblical evidence of a doctrine I have ever seen. Actually, it is the most pathetic response to any argument I have ever seen period.
 
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Axion:
That’s a topic for another thread. 😉
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I have started him a thread in apologetics,where he can rant so none of us will be lured off topic again.God Bless
 
:blessyou:
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mtr01:
I’ve remained a spectator in this thread, but I have to say without a doubt, that was absolutely the most pathetic response to the biblical evidence of a doctrine I have ever seen. Actually, it is the most pathetic response to any argument I have ever seen period.
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smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_15.gif

I agree with your comment. No need to say any more than what you have said.
 
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doulos1:
It no where needs to claim this. The facts I have posted namely that Mary and Jospeh began a normal marriage relationship after the birth of Jesus, that Jesus was her firstborn son, not only born son, and the fact that the New Testament writers especially Luke who was Greek used brother and sister instead of cousin plainly teach that the children were chidren of Jospeh and Mary.

Tertullian believed that Mary had other chidren after the birth of Jesus!
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I have spoken about this. Turtullian was also a heretic, so his opinion does not mean much. The rest of Christianity believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary.

I have dealt with all your points, as have Jerome and Augustine and all the early saints.
 
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mtr01:
I’ve remained a spectator in this thread, but I have to say without a doubt, that was absolutely the most pathetic response to the biblical evidence of a doctrine I have ever seen. Actually, it is the most pathetic response to any argument I have ever seen period.
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hahahaha:rotfl:
 
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doulos1:
So if I have a choice between Wickpedia and you, guess who wins!
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smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_30_104.gif I win of course. As was already pointed out the Wikpedia is flawed because it relies upon information that is submitted. The information is not edited, thus incorrect information is added to the Wikpedia.

There are other sources of information but a person who is so sloppy with scholarship is not likely to spend the time doing a little bit of googling to find pertinent and unbiased sources of information.

MaggieOH
 
MaggieOH said:
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_111v.gif
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_109v.gif This remark is ad hominem and has nothing to do with the topic thread.

Maggie
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Maggie I told him you were going to have to twirl if he keeps taking the thread off topic,he apparently didn’t care.I have started him a thread,maybe he’ll use it like he has the thread here and the "other people"can see and respond accordingly.I wish those smileys would post:thumbsup: Back to the fact Mary is a virgin:)
 
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