How is one regenerated?

[Rocket_Man]

You are making my point for me…

*Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God .For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. *

In Rome the Emperor was the Lord, the Savior of the world, and the Father of the people. The Emperor deemed himself a god and demanded worship. To profess that someone else was Lord or Savior of the world was not only to be a traitor of Rome but an atheist-both punishable by death by either beheading if your were a Roman citizen or crucifixtion if your were not.

Jews in Rome were turning in Christians who professed their faith in Christ as traitors to the Emperor.

Paul was reassuring Christians in Rome who were afraid of persecution and would not profess their faith in Christ.

While what you say were true, Christians were being persecuted, this idea that Paul wrote the words for comfort would be completely out of context of the positional statements before and after they appear. Later in the epistle he instructs them to submit to that the rulers for they are “ministers of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”

 

[Rocket_Man]

When did this happen?

Twenty years ago… A long time ago I know, but it punctured the hearts of my parents and all that they had been taught about the church was then questioned. They left the church and Christ faithfully called outside your gate. They also personally learned of Him and the salvation message your His Word, not through any of the church sacraments.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Twenty years ago… A long time ago I know, but it punctured the hearts of my parents and all that they had been taught about the church was then questioned. They left the church and Christ faithfully called outside your gate. They also personally learned of Him and the salvation message your His Word, not through any of the church sacraments.

Why didn’t they appeal to the Bishop?

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

*Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God .For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. *

Amen!

Rocket_Man:

While what you say were true, Christians were being persecuted, this idea that Paul wrote the words for comfort would be completely out of context of the positional statements before and after they appear. Later in the epistle he instructs them to submit to that the rulers for they are “ministers of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.”

Out of context? How so? Paul is talking about “my brethren, my kinsmen by race”(Rom 9:3). They are the ones turning in Christians to the Romans.

And yes, we are to submit to our authorities because those who have legitimate authority have it from God.

Many Catholic Christians freely submitted to the tortures of the Roman authorities because they refused to sacrifice to the Emperor ater being turned in by the Jews.

 

[Rocket_Man]

And this is where we differ. You think it necessary to seperate the two in order to define them in the plan of salvation.

You think like a man who sits on a bench alongside the lake watching a duck enter the water and thinks to himself that the duck stays afloat by paddling it webbed feet. Rather the duck floats because he has been anointed with oil and paddles for his master has come to cast the daily bread upon the water.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

You think like a man who sits on a bench alongside the lake watching a duck enter the water and thinks to himself that the duck stays afloat by paddling it webbed feet. Rather the duck floats because he has been anointed with oil and paddles for his master has come to cast the daily bread upon the water.

You sure do make a lot of biased assumptions. How do you know how I think? And what does this little false analogy have to do with the ontological change that a person undergoes through Christ’s baptism or His other sacraments?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Amen!

I was hoping for more of an analysis from you regarding the meaning of these verses and how they vary differently from my remarks.

Out of context? How so? Paul is talking about “my brethren, my kinsmen by race”(Rom 9:3). They are the ones turning in Christians to the Romans.

And yes, we are to submit to our authorities because those who have legitimate authority have it from God.

Many Catholic Christians freely submitted to the tortures of the Roman authorities because they refused to sacrifice to the Emperor ater being turned in by the Jews.

In Romans 10, Paul is not offering words of comfort for those having remained silent rather than being subjected to persecution by the authorities. To believe so is to throw out the arguments that Paul had presented from the beginning of the epistle and continued through Romans. Paul had previously established the law of faith as the means of justification and the relationship of Gentile and Jewish believer in the faith in regards to the new covenant. He has presupposed his audiences questions regarding Israel’s rejection and answered regarding the election. Chapter 10 is returning to the same argument he has been presenting from the beginning. “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”.

*That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. *

 

[Rocket_Man]

When the priest does the “work” of Christ in baptism it is Christ who baptizes, it is Christ and the Father who willed that person to be baptized and drew them to the priest to be baptized. God’s “mercy” had already been given way before the person had accepted it, but he was not saved until the baptism was done(1 Pet 3:21; Rom 6).

Fourteen years ago, a man in a pair of jeans stood inside the river on a boat ramp and baptized my wife as well as other locals. At the end of the ceremony, on what was a relativity a normal summer day, a swirl of wind came in from the north and a huge limb 10 inches in diameter and twenty feet long came crashing into the water alongside the boat ramp from a tree that had grown near it. My eyes met my wives eyes at that moment and both of us knew without speaking that the Spirit had marked His presence.

 

[guanophore]

As I said earlier, when men refuse to accept His mercy they begin to invent ways to remain righteous before Him is so that through those acts they may justify themselves. The acts themselves become their religion.

This is certainly an accurate description of many people, those involved in religion, and those outside of it. I know some non-Christians that also think this way also.

Knowing that men seek justification the church delivers the acts for profit that it may line it’s pillars with gold rather than teaching men where they may find mercy.

Can you please give an example of this? I am not sure I understand what you are talking about here.

How can the church “deliver acts for profit”?

Just the same as in the old days your church has gone astray.

What old days are those?

The Church cannot “go astray” Rocket, because her Head is Christ, and she is ensouled by the Holy Spirit. It is not possible for the divine elements of the church to “stray”. I do concede, however, that sinful men who do not stay in unity with Christ as their head do go astray.

 

[guanophore]

Israel did not have this because they thought that Holiness was something that could be achieved rather than desiring God’s mercy and so He hardened them. Doing so He could make His mercy known to the worst of sinners who desired His mercy and provoke Israel to jealously. Our sanctification begins when we accept His mercy, Jesus Christ, into our hearts. Just as those of old who believed in the one who was to come were sanctified.

It may be that you are painting with too broad of a brush here. Yes, there were a majority in Israel that did not live in faith, but there has always been a remnant that have, and do. The nature of salvation has not changed. Jews were also saved by grace, through faith, and through that faith, were able to keep the Law of God. It is true that they did not have the indwelling HS as He has been poured out upon the Church at Pentecost, but they were able to live righteously before God by grace, through faith.

 

[guanophore]

There was a man living in a desert being scorched daily by the light of the overhead sun. He soon noticed after the sun had passed over him and into the western sky that it would burn gloriful with color. He said to himself, “I will go and follow the sun until it takes me to the spot that I may also live under it’s glory.” So he packed all that he had and followed the sun. He walked for days, and days became months, and months turned to years. But instead of coming closer and under it’s glory the sun’s scorching light followed him everywhere he went. So it is with every one walking after the Commandments as if through working them glory can be achieved. God’s purpose for them to us is that they are unattainable and endlessly Holy as He is Holy, hoping that all will rest in His mercy, Jesus Christ.

I agree with your premise here that chasing after righteousness through keeping the commandments is like trying to find and live in the sunset. However, God does NOT mean for His commandments to be “unattainable”. yes, they are Holy, but His intention is to make us Holy, and that by the power of the HS, we will keep His commandments perfectly. His commandments are not burdensome, or unattainable.