How is the LDS a cult? Part 2

[Marie5890]

My first thought to answering your question about whether the LDS church is a cult is: Who cares!

Upon further reflection, I am aware of many christian denominations who consider Catholics to be a cult and inservice of the devil. These churches extend great efforts to save Catholics from a church they consider evil. When I first encountered these christians who considered my faith as evil, I was very hurt and felt abused, attacked and just horrible.

Sure, the LDS church is very different, they are polytheistic and adhere to many tenants not associated with traditional christianity.

I think we all spend too much energy working against cults and participating in anti-cult activities. I do not remember God calling us to be the people against cults, the people against materialism… No, we are called to be the people of God. Attacking another faith seems counter productive when trying to spread the good news.

I think we are wiser to learn how to be loving, inclusive and good witnesses so that others may experience the love of God through us.

This being said, there are individuals who are called and prepared to address theological issues with other faith groups. For example, the ecumenical council often debates theological issues with other faiths and have been successful in coming to new understandings between faiths. I am sure that most of us are not called to this office. We are, however, all called to love others as part of our evangelical mandate.

:clapping:

Amen.

 

[aspirant]

Unless there is a new policy, when one goes into a TR interview or tithing settlement, one does not have to prove that they have paid a full tithe. It’s the honor system… In fact, all of the TR interview is the honor system. You dont have to prove it.

If this is true, then it’s even more similar to Catholicism-- in this small regard-- than I previously realized. They’re required to materially support their church, we are obligated to materially support our Church. We’re on the honor system to follow the Church’s precepts, they’re on the honor system to follow their church’s precepts. The only differences I’m seeing are (a) their church uses the Old Testament requirement of 10% where ours does not specify a percentage and (b) someone will ask them whether they do it while we are expected to examine our own consciences.

The assertion that a requirement to tithe constitutes an “entry fee” seems more and more absurd the longer it is insisted upon.

It seems to me that it would be a lot more fruitful for someone, or even several folks, to address the question of what is here meant by the pejorative use of “cult.” How will we know whether and to what extent it applies if we don’t even know what we’re talking about?

 

[TexanKnight]

I agree.
Unless there is a new policy, when one goes into a TR interview or tithing settlement, one does not have to prove that they have paid a full tithe. It’s the honor system. Those in the NOM movement can get recommends even though they dont believe that Smith was a prophet and that today’s GA’s are " prophet seers and revelators"

Infact, all of the TR interview is the honor system. You dont have to prove it. It’s why there are locks on the lockers in the dressing room of the temples.

Certainly there is the honor system in the Catholic church as well. The priest has no way of knowing if everyone who presents themselves for Communion is in a state of grace.

ok…since you believe they are the same, please tell me what a Catholic Priest will exclude you from if you tell him you are not paying tithing

 

[TexanKnight]

My first thought to answering your question about whether the LDS church is a cult is: Who cares!

Upon further reflection, I am aware of many christian denominations who consider Catholics to be a cult and inservice of the devil. These churches extend great efforts to save Catholics from a church they consider evil. When I first encountered these christians who considered my faith as evil, I was very hurt and felt abused, attacked and just horrible.

Sure, the LDS church is very different, they are polytheistic and adhere to many tenants not associated with traditional christianity.

I think we all spend too much energy working against cults and participating in anti-cult activities. I do not remember God calling us to be the people against cults, the people against materialism… No, we are called to be the people of God. Attacking another faith seems counter productive when trying to spread the good news.

I think we are wiser to learn how to be loving, inclusive and good witnesses so that others may experience the love of God through us.

This being said, there are individuals who are called and prepared to address theological issues with other faith groups. For example, the ecumenical council often debates theological issues with other faiths and have been successful in coming to new understandings between faiths. I am sure that most of us are not called to this office. We are, however, all called to love others as part of our evangelical mandate.

if our Church Fathers believed like you and Marie, we would not have a Catholic Church today. Thank God they fought against cults and heresy…

 

[TexanKnight]

If this is true, then it’s even more similar to Catholicism-- in this small regard-- than I previously realized. They’re required to materially support their church, we are obligated to materially support our Church. We’re on the honor system to follow the Church’s precepts, they’re on the honor system to follow their church’s precepts. The only differences I’m seeing are (a) their church uses the Old Testament requirement of 10% where ours does not specify a percentage and (b) someone will ask them whether they do it while we are expected to examine our own consciences.

The assertion that a requirement to tithe constitutes an “entry fee” seems more and more absurd the longer it is insisted upon.

It seems to me that it would be a lot more fruitful for someone, or even several folks, to address the question of what is here meant by the pejorative use of “cult.” How will we know whether and to what extent it applies if we don’t even know what we’re talking about?

Unless you have been Mormon and excluded from things because you could not tithe, then your opinion lacks a basis.

If you do not pay tithing, you can’t go to the temple. If you do not go to the temple, you do not go to heaven. Bottom line. I am not told I cannot go to heaven as a Catholic if I do not pay tithing. If you think that is the same as Mormons, then so be it

 

[twopekinguys]

In other words, “In order to get a recommend, you have to follow the teaching and precepts of the church.” That doesn’t strike me as a totally wild and crazy idea. I do think that they ought to make some allowance for those to whom even 10% would be a hardship, but that people would generally be expected to contribute to their church is not by itself some far-fetched, abusive or degrading thing.

But, they don’t make that allowance, that’s the point.

When was the last time you had to meet with your Pastor, or Bishop and discuss how much you gave to your parish? When was the last time a priest told you that you could celebrate a Sacrament as soon as you paid up?

Do people need to start dropping money in the collection basket before they’re allowed into the church to worship at Mass?

Yes. As a non-Mormon I don’t believe any of that, but neither do I understand why anyone would think this makes Mormonism a cult (in some pejorative sense). If thinking that engaging in some action(s) is necessary in order to attain the highest goal makes a religion a cult, almost all religions are cults. How are we defining cult (in the pejorative sense) here?

I’m guessing you haven’t had many dealings with mormons. We are using the dictionary definition for "cult’, as it pertains to controlling their membership.

Tithing is only one thing that allows them to control their membership.

I suggest your check out this link . Make sure to read number 2, keeping in mind that the Bible is one of their “standard works”. It should remind you of Jim Jones, and David Koresh.

Just to help you out, this is from that link. “the living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.”

Sounding cultish yet?

I’ve known a number of Baptists who make the same claims about our Church’s precepts.

That is entirely possible, but we aren’t talking about Baptists right now. However, if you want to start that thread, I’m sure you’ll get some participation.

 

[Lochias]

I agree.
Unless there is a new policy, when one goes into a TR interview or tithing settlement, one does not have to prove that they have paid a full tithe.

So, in the LDS “church”, one need only pay money or lie in order to get to Heaven. Gotcha.

It’s the honor system. Those in the NOM movement can get recommends even though they dont believe that Smith was a prophet and that today’s GA’s are " prophet seers and revelators"

Infact, all of the TR interview is the honor system. You dont have to prove it. It’s why there are locks on the lockers in the dressing room of the temples.

Then why sit them down and question them about it at all? One-on-one interviews seem a little pointless if all you have to do is say “yup, totally paying all my tithes” when, in fact, you’re not.

Certainly there is the honor system in the Catholic church as well. The priest has no way of knowing if everyone who presents themselves for Communion is in a state of grace.

Our priests don’t don’t sit us down and badger us about tithes all the time, either. It’s an actual honor system, unlike the LDS’s, which doesn’t encourage honor at all.

 

[twopekinguys]

Not to mention the worthiness interviews done by bishops on young members of the church behind closed doors. I found it hard to believe the first time I read a description of these interviews but more and more described probing questions about masturbation and pornography, often describing how as a 12 year old they did not understanding the words or questions. In these interviews bishops would explain just what masturbation was and what might qualify as pornography. I don’t find it acceptable for a 40 year old acquaintance to explain masturbation and pornography to a 12 year old and I find the acceptance of this behavior on the part of parents in the LDS church to be at least a borderline cult aspect.

It’s creepy enough when they ask adults about their bedroom behavior, but when it extends to the kids, that is just perverted.

I have heard horror stories from people on here, as well as family, and friends.

 

[twopekinguys]

I agree.
Unless there is a new policy, when one goes into a TR interview or tithing settlement, one does not have to prove that they have paid a full tithe. It’s the honor system. Those in the NOM movement can get recommends even though they dont believe that Smith was a prophet and that today’s GA’s are " prophet seers and revelators"

Infact, all of the TR interview is the honor system. You dont have to prove it. It’s why there are locks on the lockers in the dressing room of the temples.

Certainly there is the honor system in the Catholic church as well. The priest has no way of knowing if everyone who presents themselves for Communion is in a state of grace.

How do you explain those tithing settlements where the bishop asks for someones tax records?

If it is an honor system as you suggest, why have a worthiness interview or a tithing settlement meeting at all?

 

[Marie5890]

How do you explain those tithing settlements where the bishop asks for someones tax records?

If it is an honor system as you suggest, why have a worthiness interview or a tithing settlement meeting at all?

If the bishop’s asks, that is his choice, but, unless it has changed, it’s not policy. Have you ever had a pastor do things a certain way by his choice, but know it isnt typical.

As far as why an interview, it’s a form of examination of conscience, Mormon style. If one is entering the temple, it’s a time to examine one’s life. Is someone living up to the covenants they have made.

Then the person is left with the decision to either be honest in answering the questions, or to lie.

As Catholics, we can understand that. Hopefully each Catholic is examine their conscience when they go up for communion. Are we in a state of grace? Are we being honest in the life we lead, do we need to go to confession. Are there things in our life that need to be repented of or are we lying, to ourselves, to our parish community, to the priest, to God.

 

[Marie5890]

It’s creepy enough when they ask adults about their bedroom behavior, but when it extends to the kids, that is just perverted.

I have heard horror stories from people on here, as well as family, and friends.

I’ve heard both, depending on the style of the bishop doing the interviewing. Some were really intrusive, others, not.

Hopefully as the years have gone by there has been a more appropriate style of interviewing.

Last time I went thru on was over 25 years ago. Have no idea if a more singular way of doing things has happened or if it’s still “up to the bishop”

 

[Marie5890]

So, in the LDS “church”, one need only pay money or lie in order to get to Heaven. Gotcha.

ll.

Huh? Where did I say that lying, in the LDS church gets you into heaven?

People enter the temple unworthly. People partake of communion and are not in a state of grace.

 

[TexanKnight]

If the bishop’s asks, that is his choice, but, unless it has changed, it’s not policy. Have you ever had a pastor do things a certain way by his choice, but know it isnt typical.

As far as why an interview, it’s a form of examination of conscience, Mormon style. If one is entering the temple, it’s a time to examine one’s life. Is someone living up to the covenants they have made.

Then the person is left with the decision to either be honest in answering the questions, or to lie.

As Catholics, we can understand that. Hopefully each Catholic is examine their conscience when they go up for communion. Are we in a state of grace? Are we being honest in the life we lead, do we need to go to confession. Are there things in our life that need to be repented of or are we lying, to ourselves, to our parish community, to the priest, to God.

Every bishop I had asked for tax records. That is not typical?

Again, if I tell my priest I am not paying tithing, what will he exclude me from?

 

[aspirant]

If you do not go to the temple, you do not go to heaven. Bottom line.

As I understand it, Mormons believe in more than one heaven.

I am not told I cannot go to heaven as a Catholic if I do not pay tithing.

Yet providing for the material needs of the Church, each of us according to our abilities, is not an optional element of Catholic morality. “The obligatory character of {the precepts of the Catholic Church} decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor…”

But, they don’t make that allowance, that’s the point.

I’m looking around at Mormon websites, and the gist seems to be “The bishop and other church members will ensure that after tithing you still have adequate food, money for rent and utilities, etc.”

“If you are keeping all the commandments and attending your meetings regularly, including the payment of tithing, I’m sure that the bishop of your Ward would see to it that you and your family would not go without the necessities of life.”

“Every Bishop I’ve heard discuss the issue would rather help someone out with welfare (which may involved helping them arrange finances) so they can pay tithing in dire financial straights than have them not pay.”

“I had (and still have) serious philosophical issues with tithing… I never said I wouldn’t pay, I just said I was still working on it and trying to get my head there. I also had some family issues that required my financial help… That said, I recognized it is a covenant we make and I was willing to work my way toward it. I was still able to get baptized and still received a temple recommend to allow me to do baptisms for the dead. I think my bishop did the right thing because allowing me to go to the temple, to do ordinances, to have that experience, certainly made me feel more willing to tithe, which I have just begun this month.”

“I would not be concerned about the tithing issue, because if you really ‘can’t afford’ it, then the church will help you. You could get food from the Bishop’s storehouse, or help paying for bills… Or you may get less direct help from the members. The Relief Society is very good about providing meals for those in need, and the Priesthood is really good about doing projects to help with yardwork, just to name a couple examples.”

So it looks like if you don’t believe you can afford to give 10% of your income, it is still required, but the LDS church will ensure that your material needs are met when you do. And one of these people straight up told her bishop that she wasn’t ready to give yet and still got her temple recommend.

When was the last time you had to meet with your Pastor, or Bishop and discuss how much you gave to your parish?

If I wasn’t giving to the Church, I would have to talk to them about it, because it would be my responsibility to repent, confess, and resolve to amend my ways.

We are using the dictionary definition for "cult’, as it pertains to controlling their membership.

OK. Which dictionary? Please bring us a definition to discuss.

And I agree with you about the Prophet. I think the theology of it is ridiculous.

 

[aspirant]

if I tell my priest I am not paying tithing, what will he exclude me from?

The Catholic Church doesn’t specify a percentage, so the term “tithe” isn’t applicable. If a Catholic tells a priest he or she is not following the precepts of the Church, one would hope that the priest would encourage the person to repent and be reconciled.

 

[TexanKnight]

As I understand it, Mormons believe in more than one heaven.

Then let me be more specific…u do not get to live in the presence of God

Yet providing for the material needs of the Church, each of us according to our abilities, is not an optional element of Catholic morality. “The obligatory character of {the precepts of the Catholic Church} decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor…”

You keep dodging the issue. It is not the paying…it is the need to pay to be allowed to go to heaven…you have yet to tell me, no matter how often I have asked, what will a priest prohibit you from doing should you tell him you do not tithe?

I’m looking around at Mormon websites, and the gist seems to be “The bishop and other church members will ensure that after tithing you still have adequate food, money for rent and utilities, etc.”

Yeah? They don’t. I was LDS…return missionary, even.

 

[TexanKnight]

The Catholic Church doesn’t specify a percentage, so the term “tithe” isn’t applicable. If a Catholic tells a priest he or she is not following the precepts of the Church, one would hope that the priest would encourage the person to repent and be reconciled.

That did not answer my question. If I tell my priest I am not tithing, or even paying any money at all, what will I be prohibited from doing?

 

[zaffiroborant]

aspirant:

As I understand it, Mormons believe in more than one heaven.

TexanKnight:

Then let me be more specific…u do not get to live in the presence of God

Making it not really heaven at all.

 

[TexanKnight]

Making it not really heaven at all.

exactly. Always nice when SOMEONE gets the point…

whew

 

[aspirant]

That did not answer my question. If I tell my priest I am not tithing, or even paying any money at all, what will I be prohibited from doing?

A priest doesn’t need to prohibit a Catholic who is not following the Church’s precepts from doing anything, because it is the Catholic’s own responsibility not to receive the Eucharist until he or she repents and confesses. Other consequences will depend on subjective factors (cf. Catechism #1854-1865).

Making it not really heaven at all.

I don’t consider any of them heaven, but from a Mormon perspective, life with Jesus and without the Father is supposed to be some sort of “heaven.”