How is the LDS a cult? Part 2

[twopekinguys]

If the bishop’s asks, that is his choice, but, unless it has changed, it’s not policy. Have you ever had a pastor do things a certain way by his choice, but know it isnt typical.

In this diocese? You’re kidding right? No. I have never had a priest do anything with the liturgy by “his choice”

As far as why an interview, it’s a form of examination of conscience, Mormon style. If one is entering the temple, it’s a time to examine one’s life. Is someone living up to the covenants they have made.

So a mormon can’t examine his/her own conscience? It has to be done for them?

Then the person is left with the decision to either be honest in answering the questions, or to lie.

Then why do the interview.

As Catholics, we can understand that. Hopefully each Catholic is examine their conscience when they go up for communion. Are we in a state of grace? Are we being honest in the life we lead, do we need to go to confession. Are there things in our life that need to be repented of or are we lying, to ourselves, to our parish community, to the priest, to God.

I’m sorry you don’t see behavior as being controlling and cultish. After all, that is the first thing a cult will do is get in your head. I thought everyone knew that.

 

[twopekinguys]

Huh? Where did I say that lying, in the LDS church gets you into heaven?

People enter the temple unworthly. People partake of communion and are not in a state of grace.

Um, you did.

Then the person is left with the decision to either be honest in answering the questions, or to lie.

 

[aspirant]

Um, you did.

She said lying could get a person into the temple, not into heaven.

 

[Marie5890]

Um, you did.

No, I didnt.

The temple is not heaven. That is not Mormon theology. “Heaven” isnt part of Mormon theology.

 

[Marie5890]

She said lying could get a person into the temple, not into heaven.

Thank you.

The temple is not even the celestial kingdom, if one wants to go strictly by Mormon theology

 

[twopekinguys]

I’m looking around at Mormon websites, and the gist seems to be “The bishop and other church members will ensure that after tithing you still have adequate food, money for rent and utilities, etc.”

“If you are keeping all the commandments and attending your meetings regularly, including the payment of tithing, I’m sure that the bishop of your Ward would see to it that you and your family would not go without the necessities of life.”

“Every Bishop I’ve heard discuss the issue would rather help someone out with welfare (which may involved helping them arrange finances) so they can pay tithing in dire financial straights than have them not pay.”

Again, you must not have had many dealings with mormons. Check with some of the ones who have been through it, say Texan, Rebecca, PaulDupree, and me. (my family members defected)

Their website often says one thing while they do another. Did you read the link I gave you about following the prophet? Check with any mormon on the street, and they will deny most of it.

Another thing that you seem to be forgetting/ignoring is that if they don’t tithe, they don’t go to the temple. If they don’t go to the temple, they don’t get their ordinances done. If they don’t get their ordinances done, they don’t get to go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Seeing the connection yet?

“I had (and still have) serious philosophical issues with tithing… I never said I wouldn’t pay, I just said I was still working on it and trying to get my head there. I also had some family issues that required my financial help… That said, I recognized it is a covenant we make and I was willing to work my way toward it. I was still able to get baptized and still received a temple recommend to allow me to do baptisms for the dead. I think my bishop did the right thing because allowing me to go to the temple, to do ordinances, to have that experience, certainly made me feel more willing to tithe, which I have just begun this month.”

“I would not be concerned about the tithing issue, because if you really ‘can’t afford’ it, then the church will help you. You could get food from the Bishop’s storehouse, or help paying for bills… Or you may get less direct help from the members. The Relief Society is very good about providing meals for those in need, and the Priesthood is really good about doing projects to help with yardwork, just to name a couple examples.”

So it looks like if you don’t believe you can afford to give 10% of your income, it is still required, but the LDS church will ensure that your material needs are met when you do. And one of these people straight up told her bishop that she wasn’t ready to give yet and still got her temple recommend.

You have to look past the purely dollars and cents part. It is so ingrained in mormons they have to tithe or they won’t get their blessings it becomes a control mechanism.
Trust me, there are strings attached to the bishop’s storehouse. As far as relief society and priesthood, they only do those things if they’re going to get something out of it. Seen it. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

Your examples all came from their website right? You didn’t provide a link. Let’s use our thinking caps here shall we. Do you think they’re going to put themselves in a bad light on their own website? Oh, did I tell you, I have this really cool bridge for sale!?!

If I wasn’t giving to the Church, I would have to talk to them about it, because it would be my responsibility to repent, confess, and resolve to amend my ways.

If you want to do that of your own accord, then bravo for you. How would you like to be called in by your pastor every year and discuss your financial situation? Think it would grow old? Be offensive?

OK. Which dictionary? Please bring us a definition to
discuss.

Really, now you want we mean by the word “is” ala Bill Clinton? You’re starting to sound like one of the mormons we had on here that would rather pick apart a word instead of addressing what was posted. He lasted a while, but eventually ** POOF ** he was gone.

Let me know when you want to talk seriously.

And I agree with you about the Prophet. I think the theology of it is ridiculous

Now, add that to the over obsession mormons have about tithing and whether they are getting any and all money they can. Seeing a cult connection appear yet?

 

[twopekinguys]

No, I didnt.

The temple is not heaven. That is not Mormon theology. “Heaven” isnt part of Mormon theology.

Isn’t the temple where the mormon god dwells on earth? The holy of holies in mormonism?

You and I know that it’s not heaven, but ask the everyday mormon, and they will say that a temple is where god dwells.

god only dwells in heaven right?

 

[Marie5890]

Isn’t the temple where the mormon god dwells on earth? The holy of holies in mormonism?

You and I know that it’s not heaven, but ask the everyday mormon, and they will say that a temple is where god dwells.

god only dwells in heaven right?

No, they dont believe that God dwells in the temple. They do believe Christ, when He visits, comes to the temple.

But dwell there? No, they dont believe that.

Unlike we Catholics, who believe Christ does indeed dwell with us in the tabernacle.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Just to be clear, I went to a Mormon temple once to do baptisms for the dead. I never went back, so I can’t give you personal experience there.

I did pay tithing as a Mormon. The one similarity between Catholics and Mormons is that we view providing for the needs of our respective churches as an obligation.

The differences:

• Catholics give according to their own conscience. We don’t have a set amount.
• No one is checking up on every individual Catholic to make sure we’re meeting our obligation.
• It is not a grave sin to withhold money from the church.
• It isn’t required that you show you’re on board with giving 10% of your income to the Catholic church before you can be baptized.

As for the Mormon idea that you should give and then if you need something the Mormon church will provide. Well, I view this as making a person dependent on a religious leader for survival. It registers on my own personal cult radar, but maybe that’s just me.

 

[Stephen168]

If I wasn’t giving to the Church, I would have to talk to them about it, because it would be my responsibility to repent, confess, and resolve to amend my ways.

A priest doesn’t need to prohibit a Catholic who is not following the Church’s precepts from doing anything, because it is the Catholic’s own responsibility not to receive the Eucharist until he or she repents and confesses

I understand what you are saying but to my way of thinking that is the difference. It seems that in Mormonism it is not left up to their own responsibility. I’m not sure that makes them a cult, but I find it creepy.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Isn’t the temple where the mormon god dwells on earth? The holy of holies in mormonism?

You and I know that it’s not heaven, but ask the everyday mormon, and they will say that a temple is where god dwells.

god only dwells in heaven right?

No, they dont believe that God dwells in the temple. They do believe Christ, when He visits, comes to the temple.

But dwell there? No, they dont believe that.

Unlike we Catholics, who believe Christ does indeed dwell with us in the tabernacle.

To be clear:

LDS believe that the temple is the House of God. While God may not physically dwell there, it is believed that the Spirit is present there in a special way. Temple dedication prayers include an invocation to have the Spirit dwell in the temple. It is believed to be a sacred, sanctified space, where heaven and earth intersect. And yes, it is believed that Christ can visit temples (and many believe that He has). However, the Godhead’s presence in the temple on a continuous basis is believed to be through the Spirit dwelling there.

Now, LDS also believe that the covenants and ordinances that they participate in have no efficacy unless one is worthy of the blessings given/promised. So, a person could certainly lie to get into the temple. However, if they are not living the commandments, living worthy of the covenants they make in the temple, then they would not receive those eternal promises. This would include eternity in the Celestial Kingdom.

Also, LDS believe that if, for whatever reason, someone is unable to participate in certain ordinances in this life, they will have that opportunity in the next, through proxy ordinances. LDS also do not look at tithing in isolation. They view tithing as one of the various commandments that they are to follow. If they are not following the Law of Tithing, they won’t be able to enter the temple at that time. If they are not following the Word of Wisdom, same thing. If they don’t believe in the Restoration, same thing. If they don’t believe in the Godhead, same thing. Tithing is just one of a number of things.

As far as examination of conscience, this is something that LDS believe they should be doing on their own all the time. Before partaking in the Sacrament (Communion), they are asked to examine themselves so that they do not partake unworthily. For temple recommend interviews, they are asked to examine themselves prior to such an interview, and answer the questions given honestly. They believe that the bishop is a “judge in Israel”, and can help them to discern if they are following the commandments, and if not, how they can get on a path to following the commandments, and eventually go to the temple (or be ordained to the priesthood, or whatever).

Hope that helps.

 

[Marie5890]

In this diocese? You’re kidding right? No. I have never had a priest do anything with the liturgy by “his choice”

So a mormon can’t examine his/her own conscience? It has to be done for them?

Then why do the interview.

I’m sorry you don’t see behavior as being controlling and cultish. After all, that is the first thing a cult will do is get in your head. I thought everyone knew that.

You are fortunate that you haven’t seen liturgical abuses in your diocese. Bishop Jenky is a gem.

I have seen priests engage in liturgical abuses. It’s sad. But it happens.

AFA interviews go, for one, since only Mormons can go to the temples to begin with, there would have to be away of identify who is Mormon and who isnt. IE get past the front desk, literally. The recommend also helps them keep track for the so-called “work for the dead”.

Like I said, the idea of worthiness in the end is the honor system. Like there are Catholics who partake of the Communion and are not in a state of grace, certainly there are Mormons who go to the temple who also are “not worthy”

Like I said, the lockers have locks on them. And you keep your valuables in them and keep the key with you.

Certainly, there are people who end up with Mormonism in their head and can never extricate it from themselves completely. They are deeply wounded and angry and bitter.

I still have times when I realize I am impacted by Mormon think. But I am not wounded or angry.
Hell I knew that it was very much in my past when GC came and went and I never knew.

But yes, it’s a fair statement to say that there are those are obsessed with it, and cant let it go and let God heal. It’s destroyed their lives in many ways.

Perhaps its like drug, alcohol, porn addictions or any other addictions. It’s something that is with them forever and every day.

Sin can be like that, get into your head.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Just to be clear, I went to a Mormon temple once to do baptisms for the dead. I never went back, so I can’t give you personal experience there.

I did pay tithing as a Mormon. The one similarity between Catholics and Mormons is that we view providing for the needs of our respective churches as an obligation.

The differences:

• Catholics give according to their own conscience. We don’t have a set amount.
• No one is checking up on every individual Catholic to make sure we’re meeting our obligation.
• It is not a grave sin to withhold money from the church.
• It isn’t required that you show you’re on board with giving 10% of your income to the Catholic church before you can be baptized.

As for the Mormon idea that you should give and then if you need something the Mormon church will provide. Well, I view this as making a person dependent on a religious leader for survival. It registers on my own personal cult radar, but maybe that’s just me.

Very valid.

 

[Marie5890]

To be clear:

LDS believe that the temple is the House of God. While God may not physically dwell there, it is believed that the Spirit is present there in a special way. Temple dedication prayers include an invocation to have the Spirit dwell in the temple. It is believed to be a sacred, sanctified space, where heaven and earth intersect. And yes, it is believed that Christ can visit temples (and many believe that He has). However, the Godhead’s presence in the temple on a continuous basis is believed to be through the Spirit dwelling there.

Now, LDS also believe that the covenants and ordinances that they participate in have no efficacy unless one is worthy of the blessings given/promised. So, a person could certainly lie to get into the temple. However, if they are not living the commandments, living worthy of the covenants they make in the temple, then they would not receive those eternal promises. This would include eternity in the Celestial Kingdom.

Also, LDS believe that if, for whatever reason, someone is unable to participate in certain ordinances in this life, they will have that opportunity in the next, through proxy ordinances. LDS also do not look at tithing in isolation. They view tithing as one of the various commandments that they are to follow. If they are not following the Law of Tithing, they won’t be able to enter the temple at that time. If they are not following the Word of Wisdom, same thing. If they don’t believe in the Restoration, same thing. If they don’t believe in the Godhead, same thing. Tithing is just one of a number of things.

As far as examination of conscience, this is something that LDS believe they should be doing on their own all the time. Before partaking in the Sacrament (Communion), they are asked to examine themselves so that they do not partake unworthily. For temple recommend interviews, they are asked to examine themselves prior to such an interview, and answer the questions given honestly. They believe that the bishop is a “judge in Israel”, and can help them to discern if they are following the commandments, and if not, how they can get on a path to following the commandments, and eventually go to the temple (or be ordained to the priesthood, or whatever).

Hope that helps.

Thanks LW, for taking the time and being very clear about what Mormons believe.
Just like happens with Catholicism and understandings get twisted, that helps with Mormonism as well, and no doubt just about any faith traditions.

It’s easy to twist what you honestly dont know or understand.

Thanks again.

 

[Marie5890]

Just to be clear, I went to a Mormon temple once to do baptisms for the dead. I never went back, so I can’t give you personal experience there.

I did pay tithing as a Mormon. The one similarity between Catholics and Mormons is that we view providing for the needs of our respective churches as an obligation.

The differences:

• Catholics give according to their own conscience. We don’t have a set amount.
• No one is checking up on every individual Catholic to make sure we’re meeting our obligation.
• It is not a grave sin to withhold money from the church.
• It isn’t required that you show you’re on board with giving 10% of your income to the Catholic church before you can be baptized.

.

Very fair.

 

[Marie5890]

I understand what you are saying but to my way of thinking that is the difference. It seems that in Mormonism it is not left up to their own responsibility. I’m not sure that makes them a cult, but I find it creepy.

It is their responsiblity though. TRs were good for 2 years. A person doesnt go thru a temple recommend interview each time they want to go to the temple.

So in those two years, even if a person got one worthily, they then could end up sinning in such a way that they would not be temple worthy.

If one was paying a full tithe, living the WoW, etc etc, at the time of the interview, gets their TR, and they say a year later, hasnt been paying a full tithe, etc or drinking coffee, they still have their TR and can enter the temple.

Examining one’s conscience about one’s worthiness is still expected just like we are expected to examine ours before partaking of Communion

 

[RebeccaJ]

Like I said, the lockers have locks on them. And you keep your valuables in them and keep the key with you.

I remember when the locks were installed, it was breaking news, “people are stealing in the temple”. From my publishing days in SLC, one of the more popular items to shoplift in bookstores was Bibles, triple and quad combinations (Mormons scriptures combined into one binding). They were expensive, some of them costing over $100.

OT, with the changed publication of the Mormon scriptures, every Mormon will be out buying new, expensive, scriptures again. I’m thinking the shoplifting increases.

I don’t mean this as a dig on Mormons, every retailer experiences theft. I just always thought it was ironic to steal scriptures.

 

[LivingWaters7]

It is their responsiblity though. TRs were good for 2 years. A person doesnt go thru a temple recommend interview each time they want to go to the temple.

So in those two years, even if a person got one worthily, they then could end up sinning in such a way that they would not be temple worthy.

If one was paying a full tithe, living the WoW, etc etc, at the time of the interview, gets their TR, and they say a year later, hasnt been paying a full tithe, etc or drinking coffee, they still have their TR and can enter the temple.

Examining one’s conscience about one’s worthiness is still expected just like we are expected to examine ours before partaking of Communion

This is true. It also applies to the priesthood. Sometimes, a “priesthood holder” would be asked to do something, like bless the Sacrament or give a priesthood blessing, and they would decline, implying that they believe they are not in a state of worthiness to perform the ordinance (perhaps this also stems from the issue of worthiness and efficacy of sacraments/ordinances). Or, a person may find that they are not worthy of their temple recommend, and may go to the bishop about it, stop going until they are worthy, etc. As Elders Quorum President, while I don’t get involved in matters of worthiness, they still come up in a sense, and I’m aware of such things. Especially when I ask (or used to ask when I went to Sacrament Meeting!) someone to bless the Sacrament or pass it, and they say they can’t.

 

[RebeccaJ]

perhaps this also stems from the issue of worthiness and efficacy of sacraments/ordinances

I find conflicting views among LDS. It seems to me LDS men are taught that their worthiness has an effect on ordinances, but when pressed with the Catholic argument that the sacraments are made valid by Christ, not by the priest, they will express the same belief about themselves. So, what is your understanding?

 

[LivingWaters7]

I find conflicting views among LDS. It seems to me LDS men are taught that their worthiness has an effect on ordinances, but when pressed with the Catholic argument that the sacraments are made valid by Christ, not by the priest, they will express the same belief about themselves. So, what is your understanding?

I’m running out the door right now (I’m late!), but in short, yes, I completely agree with your assessment. LDS say that you must be worthy to perform the ordinances. I believe the D&C says that the “powers of godliness” or something like that, withdraw when not exercised in righteousness (perhaps this relates to the view on the apostasy of the Church Christ established anciently). However, when they realize that this could mean that there are a whole bunch of people that may not have been validly baptized because the priesthood holder was unworthy, or any of the other ordinances, then they would then say that the ordinance would still be valid even if the priesthood holder was unworthy. So I agree with you on the conflicting views.