How is the LDS a cult? Part 2

[TexanKnight]

The Roman Catholic Church declared Thursday that Mormon converts must be rebaptized, a setback to the Mormon Church’s effort to characterize itself as a Christian denomination.

The Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith declared that baptisms in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are “not the baptism that Christ instituted.”

The ruling was a departure from the Catholic Church’s usual practice of recognizing the baptisms of converts from most other churches. The Vatican held that the Mormon view of the nature of God was too different from Catholicism’s.

It was the second time in as many years that a major Christian church had ruled that Mormon converts must be rebaptized. Last year, the United Methodist Church, the nation’s second-largest Protestant denomination, took a similar stand.
…]

Dan Wotherspoon, editor of Sunstone Magazine, an independent journal of Mormon life and issues published in Salt Lake City, said, “Clearly, the LDS church still has their work cut out for them in this effort to be known as a Christian church.”

In Salt Lake City, Latter-day Saints spokesmen sought to minimize the importance of the Catholic decision, or its possible effect on efforts by the church to present itself as a Christian church.
…]

In Rome, the Vatican congregation indicated that radically different theological views of God and Jesus Christ necessitated the rebaptism of Mormon converts.

The congregation said that the Catholic Church could not accept Mormon belief that “God the father had a wife, the Celestial Mother, with whom he procreated Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.”

 

[TexanKnight]

“When issuing its 2001 ruling, the Vatican said that even though the Mormon baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the church’s beliefs about the identity of the three persons are so different from Catholic and mainline Christian belief that the rite cannot be regarded as a Christian baptism.”

Really? Not Christian?

hmmmmmmm

 

[aspirant]

St. Thomas (II-II:11:1) defines heresy: “a species of infidelity in men who, having professed the faith of Christ, corrupt its dogmas”.

The Catechism and Code of Canon Law are better sources, but this is consistent with them. That’s why Buddhists and Jews and Mormons aren’t heretics. They’re not Christians at all.

catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-mormon-church

Goes on to say what makes them heretical.

The brochure you linked does not call Mormon beliefs heretical because Mormons are not Christians.

they do NOT believe in the Trinity and their baptism is not accepted.

Which is why they’re a non-Christian religion and therefore not heretics.

 

[aspirant]

“When issuing its 2001 ruling, the Vatican said that even though the Mormon baptismal rite refers to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the {LDS} church’s beliefs about the identity of the three persons are so different from Catholic and mainline Christian belief that the rite cannot be regarded as a Christian baptism.”

Really? Not Christian?

That’s exactly what your quote says: Mormonism is not Christian. Which is what I’ve been trying to tell you.

 

[TexanKnight]

That’s exactly what your quote says: Mormonism is not Christian. Which is what I’ve been trying to tell you.

Yep…

and as I posted…and quoted…heretical.

But I understand your need to save face, so you can have the last word you need.

 

[aspirant]

as I posted…and quoted…heretical.

Non-Christians cannot be heretics. Please refer back to the Catechism for clarification.

 

[aspirant]

If you will not listen to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, perhaps you will listen to Catholic Answers:
Catholic Answers:

A person must be baptized to commit heresy. This means that movements that have split off from or been influenced by Christianity, but that do not practice baptism (or do not practice valid baptism), are not heresies, but separate religions. Examples include Muslims, who do not practice baptism, and Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do not practice valid baptism.

catholic.com/tracts/the-great-heresies

 

[Lochias]

Non-Christian cult or heretical cult, they’re still a cult.

 

[aspirant]

Non-Christian cult or heretical cult, they’re still a cult.

We haven’t yet clarified how the term cult is being used for the purposes of this thread.

 

[jrtrent]

We haven’t yet clarified how the term cult is being used for the purposes of this thread.

The website gotquestions.org defines it this way:

*“As distinct from a religion, a cult is a group that claims to be part of the religion, yet denies essential truth(s) of that religion. A Christian cult is a group that denies one or more of the fundamental truths of Christianity, while still claiming to be Christian.” *gotquestions.org/cult-definition.html

It’s an interesting definition, yet we’re still left with the problem of defining what qualifies as an essential truth. They offer, “The two most common teachings of cults are that Jesus was not God and that salvation is not by faith alone.” Personally, I find those two items overly restrictive, at least as they have been applied by some groups against some other groups in the past. I like the definition of Christian as credited to Smith’s Bible Dictionary:

“This difference [between Christian and non-Christian religions] is constituted by the Christian religion having Jesus Christ, His revelation, and His precepts for the objects of its contemplations and the motive of its actions. The Church, therefore, consists of all who acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ the blessed Savior of mankind, who give credit to His gospel, and who hold His sacraments, the seals of eternal life, in honor.”

I’m a former Mormon who has no problem with the idea that Mormons are Christians. They have teachings and precepts that I could no longer in good conscience hold, but then, that’s also why there are ex-Baptists, ex-Presbyterians, ex-Anglicans, ex-Catholics, etc. Calvinist theologian R. C. Sproul gave as part of his definition of the gospel “that Jesus lived a life of perfect righteousness, of perfect obedience to God, not for His own well being but for His people. He has done for me what I couldn’t possibly do for myself.” While there are different understandings as to the specifics of His nature and works, Mormons hold the sacraments in honor and, I think, give credit to His gospel:

“Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge. Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth. Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins as we follow Him. Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saves us from physical death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection.” lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=3d077c2fc20b8010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Unlike some former Mormons, I have no painful memories of my time in the church nor did I suffer any animosity upon leaving it. I still have Mormon friends whom I respect and care for deeply. They consider themselves Christians, not cultists, and I have no reason to disagree with them.

 

[TexanKnight]

Non-Christian cult or heretical cult, they’re still a cult.

Yes

 

[TexanKnight]

Non-Christian cult or heretical cult, they’re still a cult.

The false doctrines they teach are heretical, and, if you converted to LDS from a Christian Religion, you are a heretic. Aspirtant wants to split hairs, but facts are facts.

 

[TexanKnight]

Non-Christian cult or heretical cult, they’re still a cult.

“Heresy consists in a stubborn denial of truths which have been defined an proposed by the Church as divinely revealed doctrines.” (Canon 1324-1325 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law).

Those who support heretics come under the condemnation of the IV Lateran Council which declared that "Those who give credence to the teachings of heretics, as well as those who receive, defend, or patronize them, are excommunicated.”

Further he who to support heresy distorts the Sacred Scriptures from their genuine and true meaning is guilty of the greatest injury to the Word of God; and against this crime we are warned by the Prince of the Apostles: “There are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they also do other Scriptures, to their own destruction” (II Peter 3:16 Cf also Council of Trent, Decree on Edition and Use of the Sacred Books," Session IV, DNZ:786

The 1917 Code of Canon Law affirms that Catholics have a duty to reject error and heresy and all that works against the faith in the following words: Canon 1325.1 - “The faithful are bound to profess their faith openly whenever under the circumstances silence, evasion, or their manner of acting would otherwise implicitly amount to a denial of the faith, or would involve contempt of religion, an offense to God, or scandal to the neighbor.”

St. Francis de Sales on this point tells us that “It is our duty to denounce as strongly as we can heretical and schismatic sects and their leaders. It is an act of charity to cry out against the wolf when he is among the sheep, wherever he is.” - Introduction to the Devout Life, III, 29.

 

[TexanKnight]

Pope Innocent IV - Those who have been detected even by slight proof to have deviated from the doctrine of the Catholic religion ought to fall under the classification of heretic and under the sentences operating against heretics. (THE REGISTERS OF INNOCENT IV, Berger, Paris: 1881)

St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori - These unfortunate people do not see that, in refusing to submit to the Church, they reduce themselves to believing in nothing. The so-called Reformers have revived ancient heresies, and have sought by false doctrines to destroy the faith of Jesus Christ, and, if possible, to bring all souls with themselves to eternal perdition. (AN EXPOSITION AND DEFENSE OF ALL THE POINTS OF FAITH DISCUSSED AND DEFINED BY THE SACRED COUNCIL OF TRENT, St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori, Dublin: James Duffy & Co., 1846 ch.168).

St. John “Anyone who does not abide in the doctrine of Christ, has not God.” 2 Jn 1:9

I Lateran Council - If anyone does not profess properly and truthfully all that has been handed down and taught publicly to the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God, to the last detail in word and intention: let him be anathema. (HISTORY OF THE COUNCILS, Bishop Karl Joseph von Hefele, Edinburgh: Clark Company, 1872-1876)

Pope St. Martin I - If anyone does not with mind and lips reject and anathematize all abominable heretics together with their impious writings, even to the single least portion, let such a person be condemned. (Canon 18, Lateran Council, DNZ: 271-272)

St. Cyprian: “He who has not the Church for his Mother cannot have God as his Father.” (Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca, Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 4:502)

Wow…I suppose there are those here who would chastise these Saints and Popes…

 

[TexanKnight]

The genuine doctrine of Arius. Using Greek terms, it denies that the Son is of one essence, nature, or substance with God; He is not consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father,

So, Arianism, on e of the great Heresies, said God the Father and Jesus were NOT consubstantial.

That is exactly what the Mormons teach.

 

[jrtrent]

Wow…I suppose there are those here who would chastise these Saints and Popes…

I’m certainly in no position to chastise them, but it does seem that current Catholic leaders and writers use different language to express their differences.

. . . prior to the Second Vatican Council it was quite common to speak of non-Catholic Christians as heretics, since many of their doctrines are objectively contrary to Catholic teaching. This theological distinction remains true, though in keeping with the pastoral charity of the Council today we use the term heretic only to describe those who willingly embrace what they know to be contrary to revealed truth. Such persons are formally (in their conscience before God) guilty of heresy. Thus, the person who is objectively in heresy is not formally guilty of heresy if 1) their ignorance of the truth is due to their upbringing in a particular religious tradition (to which they may even be scrupulously faithful), and 2) they are not morally responsible for their ignorance of the truth… . .

It was thus common in the past to speak of the schismatic Orthodox Churches who broke with Rome in 1054. As with heresy, we no longer assume the moral culpability of those who belong to Churches in schism from Rome, and thus no long refer to them as schismatics. ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm

The sin of separation is treated similarly in the CCC: "818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . .”

As someone else pointed out, the CCC defines heresy as “the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same.” The key word here being “post-baptismal”; implying you have to go from being a baptized Catholic to something else to be a heretic.

You made a point earlier that if someone converts to LDS from a Christian religion, you are a heretic. I don’t know every Christian religion’s definition of heresy, but it could certainly be true of those converting from the Catholic Church. However, though a convert to Mormonism may be a heretic, that doesn’t mean all Mormons are heretics. I converted to Mormonism from atheism, and many are simply born to it. I don’t think the post-Vatican II Catholic Church would label such as heretics.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormonism is viewed by the Catholic Church as a non-Christian religion in the same way Islam is.

While I agree that Joseph Smith took on old heresies, Mormonism is not Protestantism, ie, they are not separatd bretheren, not of the same vine.

I agree with aspirant, in that a person cannot be a heretic if they’ve never accepted truth. So a person who is Mormon, through no fault of their own, is not a heretic.

 

[KathleenGee]

My best team mate in my work was a Mormon woman close to my age. People commented on our work. When she found out I was Catholic, she told me her parents did not raise her to be prejudice against Catholics. When spoke about her family life growing up, it was so wholesome. She used to go to Mass with her childhood Catholic friend without any opposition from her parents either.

We never discussed differences of beliefs, but we certainly shared with what we had in common.

The only thing I noticed is when I told her I lived near the state Mormon temple, and then she ducked and looked away, like ‘oh oh…’. Here on CAF I found out what members were doing in the evenings and at night through dawn, when I used to do night shifts.

When we seek the unitive spirit of all people, and have a good relationship with them, especially when we do know some things about their beliefs that oppose ours, the One True God is at work among us. We are truly on a journey together coming closer to God.

 

[Marie5890]

Here on CAF I found out what members were doing in the evenings and at night through dawn, when I used to do night shifts.

Kathleen, I’m confused by the above comment. Are you referring to the endowment ceremony?

I’ve never heard of any temple doing any ordinances thru the night til the morning.

 

[TexanKnight]

Mormonism is viewed by the Catholic Church as a non-Christian religion in the same way Islam is.

While I agree that Joseph Smith took on old heresies, Mormonism is not Protestantism, ie, they are not separatd bretheren, not of the same vine.

I agree with aspirant, in that a person cannot be a heretic if they’ve never accepted truth. So a person who is Mormon, through no fault of their own, is not a heretic.

I have said that people who were never baptized Christian might not be heretic, but a large portion of Mormons are converts from Christianity…as was Joseph Smith and all the first Mormons. So, the Mormon Church is heretic BECAUSE it was founded and doctrines corrupted by baptized Christians