How is the LDS a cult? Part 2

[Marie5890]

You didn’t answer the question about the pregnancy, but I see from your other responses why you haven’t/didn’t. You have demonstrated seeing things in posts that aren’t really there. I never mentioned the word “conception” did I?

On the contrary I did answer it.
Having a still born child is not fruitless. The child already exsist even if it doesnt get carried to term.

No you didn’t mention the word. I did. From your question you were asking if having a stillborn child is fruitless. I say no, because the child already is living. How is that fruitless.

AFA the surgery goes. The attempt was made, the outcome still fruitless.

Not sure why you are having a hard time understanding.

 

[Marie5890]

DING, DING, DING!!!

We have a winner!!!

LOL…

I always had a hard with spelling. Too much time spent in children’s hospital as a child.
Though not sure why spelling would be an issue of, all things.

 

[Marie5890]

Getting back to the OP’s question, I think aspirant’s plea to define what a cult is is fundamental. The one he offered above is interesting, and the LDS church would seem to fit at least points 1 and 2. I also like the one I posted a few pages ago:

“As distinct from a religion, a cult is a group that claims to be part of the religion, yet denies essential truth(s) of that religion. A Christian cult is a group that denies one or more of the fundamental truths of Christianity, while still claiming to be Christian.” gotquestions.org/cult-definition.html

If Mormons didn’t claim to be Christians, they couldn’t be a Christian cult; but they do say they are Christians. This leads to the question, what are the essential truths of Christianity. Most Christians–Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican, and the majority of Protestants–accept the Nicene Creed. Mormons don’t. Is that enough to label them as a cult? One definition of Christian that I like is suggested by Smith’s Bible dictionary:

"This difference [between Christian and non-Christian religions] is constituted by the Christian religion having Jesus Christ, His revelation, and His precepts for the objects of its contemplations and the motive of its actions. The Church, therefore, consists of all who acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ the blessed Savior of mankind, who give credit to His gospel, and who hold His sacraments, the seals of eternal life, in honor."

By that definition, I’m not so sure Mormons don’t qualify as being Christian. Even though I left the church, I definitely considered myself a Christian while a part of it, and I don’t see my continuing Mormon friends as non-Christian just because they are still LDS. Another round of Kumbaya, anyone?

Yes, back to the topic at hand

 

[Lochias]

LOL…

I always had a hard with spelling. Too much time spent in children’s hospital as a child.
Though not sure why spelling would be an issue of, all things.

Good spelling and grammar is always a good thing, regardless of the topic. Plus, someone had already pointed it out to you.

 

[Lochias]

Yes, back to the topic at hand

The LDS “church” I have had the grave misfortune to experience was a cult. No other description fits. They were bullies, criminals and fiends who did not hesitate to illegally break up a family and who to this day have attempted to punish one of my siblings for his faith to the Catholic Church.

The LDS “church” is a cult.

The end.

 

[TexanKnight]

The LDS “church” I have had the grave misfortune to experience was a cult. No other description fits. They were bullies, criminals and fiends who did not hesitate to illegally break up a family and who to this day have attempted to punish one of my siblings for his faith to the Catholic Church.

The LDS “church” is a cult.

The end.

this

 

[TexanKnight]

Children are pure and innocent before the Lord. The age of 8 was set by the Lord as the age children become accountable.

Says who?

At this age they are able to understand the principles of faith and repentance which are required for baptism:

Really? I have seen teenagers who did not truly understand it.

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.” (Acts 8:35-38)

Here we see that believing was the requirment for baptism. Again, we see that they stopped their chairiot and “they went down both into the water.” An unlikely thing to do if baptism by immersion was not important.

No. We are seeing A baptism. Remember, WHOLE HOUSEHOLDS were baptized at least three times in the New Testament. Your theory does not work.

 

[twopekinguys]

On the contrary I did answer it.
Having a still born child is not fruitless. The child already exsist even if it doesnt get carried to term.

No you didn’t mention the word. I did. From your question you were asking if having a stillborn child is fruitless. I say no, because the child already is living. How is that fruitless.

AFA the surgery goes. The attempt was made, the outcome still fruitless.

Not sure why you are having a hard time understanding.

Unfortunately, it is not me that is having a hard time understanding.

I give up. One can only beat their head against a wall so many times.

Enjoy your world.

 

[twopekinguys]

LOL…

I always had a hard with spelling. Too much time spent in children’s hospital as a child.
Though not sure why spelling would be an issue of, all things.

And yet, you miss the point entirely. Why am I not surprised?

Go back and read the entire post that i was commenting on.:banghead:

 

[TexanKnight]

Unfortunately, it is not me that is having a hard time understanding.

I give up. One can only beat their head against a wall so many times.

Enjoy your world.

lol…are you saying that your conversation is fruitless?

 

[twopekinguys]

lol…are you saying that your conversation is fruitless?

Ya think?

Like I’ve said before…There are none so blind…

If ya know what I mean.

 

[pablope]

Children are pure and innocent before the Lord. The age of 8 was set by the Lord as the age children become accountable. At this age they are able to understand the principles of faith and repentance which are required for baptism:

Can you provide citations, documents from the writings of the Early Church or any ECF…or from the Bible, where the Lord did set this age?

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.” (Acts 8:35-38)

 

[Marie5890]

And yet, you miss the point entirely. Why am I not surprised?

Go back and read the entire post that i was commenting on.:banghead:

Dont be bruising your head there, twopekin. Its not worth it…

Let’s just get back to the thread’s original intent.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Children are pure and innocent before the Lord. The age of 8 was set by the Lord as the age children become accountable. At this age they are able to understand the principles of faith and repentance which are required for baptism:

Yes, I agree that children reach an age where they understand. It is the same for Roman Catholics, who baptize children as soon as possible, the child then grows in faith and understanding, are taught, and later in life (similar age to LDS) make their first confession and are confirmed.

What I meant is, what happens at age 8 that a child loses the grace you say they are born with. If they are by default members of God’s Kingdom, what happens at age 8 that they lose this grace?

“Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.” (Acts 8:35-38)

Here we see that believing was the requirment for baptism. Again, we see that they stopped their chairiot and “they went down both into the water.” An unlikely thing to do if baptism by immersion was not important.

Yes, an adult convert has a believers baptism. Children are raised in the faith. Baptism is how they enter the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Do you think Jews should withhold circumcision until a child can understand the covenant they are agreeing to? Why or why not?

To withhold the graces of baptism from a child seems cruel to a Catholic. How do you expect your children to grow in grace if they have not been baptized?

 

[Stephen168]

…… this scripture tells us that ALL die in Adam. That is original sin. But the verse ends “so ALL will be made alive in Christ.” Christ overcame original sin for ALL.

Correct, We all die because of Adam

Paul “implores” us on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God. This shows we have some responsibility in the new covenant.

Correct, Through the new covenant in Christ we are saved.

Eight years is the age of accountability set be the Lord, when children are old enough to believe in Jesus Christ and repent. When Jesus died on the cross He over came original sin for all and therefore children are pure and free from sin

But, Repenting is not required for baptism because God does not require us to sin.

Mormon logic:
-You must sin to be have something to repent.
-You must repent to be baptized.
-Therefore you must sin to be baptized.

Waiting until age 8 is withholding a free gift of God. God does not require us to wait until age 8 because it is irrational to do so.

 

[Lochias]

Dont be bruising your head there, twopekin. Its not worth it…

Let’s just get back to the thread’s original intent.

We did. I responded, yet again, and you said nothing.

I say the LDS “church” is a cult, and has in the very recent past engaged in bullying, kidnapping, theft, harassment, and other crimes.

What say you?

 

[PaulDupre]

Correct, We all die because of Adam
Correct, Through the new covenant in Christ we are saved.
But, Repenting is not required for baptism because God does not require us to sin.

I think the baptism of Jesus illustrates your point nicely.

 

[kimg901]

Eight years is the age of accountability set be the Lord, when children are old enough to believe in Jesus Christ and repent. When Jesus died on the cross He over came original sin for all and therefore children are pure and free from sin.

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:20-22)

“At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”(Matt. 18:1-3)

Children are pure and innocent before the Lord and all children will be saved in the kingdom of heaven:

“And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celesetial kingdom of heaven.” (D&C 137:10)

I think the point is that at birth, we carry what is called “original sin” Mt.Oly. So baptising infants is right and just. God forbid a small lds child under the age of 8 dies and is not baptised.

 

[Marie5890]

I think the point is that at birth, we carry what is called “original sin” Mt.Oly. So baptising infants is right and just. God forbid a small lds child under the age of 8 dies and is not baptised.

I’m guessing Kim that you know that Mormons don’t believe in original sin is passed on, that Christ’s atonement covers that.

The thing that part of the problem is that Mormons dont have an right understanding of what is meant by original sin.

It’s not that we are held culpable for Adam and Eve’s transgression and disobedience, but rather we do suffer from the effect of it regardless.

 

[SteveVH]

I totally agree. The fly in the ointment is not the differences…we should accept those…it is the constant chastising by those who believe their way of teaching and debating is the only right way

We should let each other defend our faith the way we feel is right. I do not chastise them for being soft. I would appreciate the same respect.

You’re absolutely right and I think most of us here do respect you.