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Lochias
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Marie? Nothing to say?
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aspirant
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Thanks, jrtrent, for returning to this topic. I think it is an interesting one.Getting back to the OP’s question, I think aspirant’s plea to define what a cult is is fundamental.
aspirant:
The one he offered above is interesting, and the LDS church would seem to fit at least points 1 and 2.
Applying the Shelley definition to Mormonism…
1. This does not seem very clear cut, since Mormonism has different concepts of salvation and damnation than we have.
According to this, at least, it seems that non-Mormons cannot attain the highest form of exaltation in the celestial kingdom. It is ambiguous whether and to what extent non-Mormons can attain other parts of the celestial kingdom. It is my understanding that Mormons believe valid baptism (and other ordinances) can be received even after death, so perhaps they believe that some people who died without ever joining the LDS church might attain the celestial kingdom? There is no question, according to the LDS.org site, that non-Mormons can attain the terrestrial kingdom: “Some of them will be members of the Church, and others will not. They will be those who did not accept Jesus on earth but later accepted Him in the spirit world.” Of both the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms it is said “Our Father in Heaven will give these people the happiness they are prepared to receive,” so it does not appear that either could be said to be analogous to damnation. All of the options fall short of what we believe regarding salvation, but the aforementioned three seem to be the closest analogs Mormonism has, and non-Mormons can attain at least two if not three.
It is hard for me to discern, based on this, whether Mormonism is really exclusive according to Shelley’s definition. It’s not as exclusive as some other groups, such as Westboro Baptist.
2. Mormonism is secretive in some ways. Only Mormons with a temple recommend are allowed to see and participate in temple rituals, for example, and it is my understanding that they are sworn to secrecy.
I do not know, however, whether and to what extent Mormons have “secret doctrines,” articles of faith known only to initiates. When I go looking for information about secret doctrines, I find only references to doctrines not widely known but nevertheless discussed public. For example, I find websites informing me that Mormons secretly believe God has a wife. This doesn’t seem like much of a secret, though, since it’s openly discussed in places such as Sunstone magazine, which anyone can pick up at a Barnes & Noble.
On the one hand, I am inclined to say, yes, Mormonism is secretive. On the other hand, not so secretive as, say, some ancient forms of Gnosticism. And, to be fair, orthodox Christianity has also been secretive about some doctrines at times, but Shelley would surely not regard Christianity as a cult.
3. To me, this seems to be where Mormonism comes closest to Shelley’s definition. Someone has already posted the message of President Benson called “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet.” It’s hard to argue that a religion is not authoritarian when its leader says of himself “If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.”
I think it is ambiguous whether and to what extent Mormonism fits the overall definition. But part of the problem, as I hope I indicated above, is the definition itself. Mormonism has very different concepts of salvation and damnation than we do, so Shelley’s description of exclusivity is hard to apply. Mormonism is somewhat secretive, but secretiveness is something that admits of degrees and Mormonism has outgrown a size at which secrets can be adequately kept (even the temple rituals may be viewed online), so that’s also hard to apply. While we can still discuss the elements of this definition and perhaps learn a lot, I think a better definition is probably needed.
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aspirant
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I think this definition may be both too broad and too narrow, so I’m not inclined to consider it terribly useful. There is no question in my mind, however, that it applies to Mormonism. Mormonism does claim to be “Christian” and Mormonism denies many fundamental truths of Christianity. It’s so far beyond the pale that we Catholics regard it as a non-Christian religion altogether.
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joemf
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A cult? If you consider the Mormon definition of certain aspects of their religion I believe I would have to put it in the ‘cult’ category. My lynchpin question always centers on Jesus. According to traditional Mormon teaching(from the mouths of former Mormons easily found in print and on bookshelves)…Jesus was “one” of the spirit sons of the God Elohim. God physically visited Mary,had sex,so Jesus could be born w/a physical body. Jesus redeemed all mankind to “general salvation”–but exaltation to the celestial kingdom will depend on a person’s being a zealous and obedient LDSaint. Add to that baptisms for the dead,Adam was Michael the archangel,Scripture is good only as far as it goes–then LDS teachings take over, God the Father was once a flesh and bone man, creation accounts in Mormon scripture speak of “the Gods” accomplishing the things Genesis says God did. That much alone, as for me, put’s them exactly where I find them in the Christian bookstores–in the ‘cult’ section.Well…is the LDS a cult or not, was this answered in the thread?
If it is not a cult…then could it be described as cult-like?
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KathleenGee
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joe…good point. Jesus said He is Truth to Pilate. Jesus is the Splendor of Truth, Veritatis Splendor, as Pope John Paul II would say, and the entire universe was created through Him…objective reality vs the Mormon determiner of revealed truth through Joseph Smith and feelings.
Discipline to seek truth always avoids use of feelings, especially when it involves one human being. Christ chose 12 apostles, not one. The dialogue and debates, the misunderstandings by the Apostles and Christ’s rebukes and corrections is very evident in the Gospels. We witness their growth in truth and the kind of thinking that leads to eternal life in Christ.
So Catholicism depends on the apostolic witness. Consider 2 Peter 2, exhorting us to listen to no one but the Apostles who knew Him and were chosen by Him before they were even born.
Discipline to seek truth always avoids use of feelings, especially when it involves one human being. Christ chose 12 apostles, not one. The dialogue and debates, the misunderstandings by the Apostles and Christ’s rebukes and corrections is very evident in the Gospels. We witness their growth in truth and the kind of thinking that leads to eternal life in Christ.
So Catholicism depends on the apostolic witness. Consider 2 Peter 2, exhorting us to listen to no one but the Apostles who knew Him and were chosen by Him before they were even born.
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Porknpie
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Following the gospel handed on by the apostles is also seen in
[BIBLEDRB]Galatians 1:8[/BIBLEDRB]
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TexanKnight
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Yes
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Aramis
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Remember that Joseph Smith taught that the canonical bible was imperfect, and needed the BoM to render it correct in meaning… I have heard LDS members claim that passage is on such error in transmission. …
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Lochias
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Last time I’ll ask Marie, and then I’ll simply assume you have no way to address my statement.
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jrtrent
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You seem to be defining “cult” on purely non-theological grounds. On the basis of what you’ve said and my own experience in the church, I’d have to say that the Mormon church is not a cult, for I’ve never met a kinder, more loving group of people to associate with.
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Lochias
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Well, that makes one of us.
I am very, very glad that you’ve not met the LDS “church” that I have, and hope that you never will.
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Aramis
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The darker side of many religions is the grasping to retain members… and the constantly pressuring of friends and associates to join.
There are are several definitions of cult… one of which is a religious group using secret rituals, coercive psychological techniques, and isolation from friends to bond members to the group, often over family.
The LDS, at least in some wards, meet all three… and many hit 2 of them.
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TexanKnight
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jrtrent
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No–decidedly unkind! I don’t know, nor do I need to know, all the particulars, but you, Aramis, and Lochias seem to have had a drastically different experience with the LDS than I did.
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TexanKnight
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If three people had good experiences with Ted Bundy and one person is killed by Ted Budy…is he a good person because he was good to 75% of the people?
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twopekinguys
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joemf
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Or perhaps you see only what you ‘want’ to see. A common human failure with all of us from time to time. My brother-in-law is an alcoholic…a fall down,slobbering,weekends are a blurr drunk. And yet, if you ask him…“he’s fine, he only social drinks”. So obviously the reality of a situation can be veiled to us. ‘Deluded’ i think the scripture calls it.MIne is different than yours also.
I guess you need a bigger sampling.
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Marie5890
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A human failure indeed. Thanks for that (name removed by moderator)ut.
Being, or even having time, to be self-aware and discerning, is worth the effort.
Thanks, and welcome to CAF, Joe.
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twopekinguys
Guest
I believe that is an assumption on your part.
You will notice that i did not provide a description of what caused me to make that statement, but merely my experience differed, and the previous poster’s statement was merely based on his/her own anectdotal evidence.
Unfortunately, you are making an unwarranted assumption, and it is you that is seeing “what you ‘want’ to see.”
I would caution you on not making those assumptions.
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TexanKnight
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:clapping:I believe that is an assumption on your part.
You will notice that i did not provide a description of what caused me to make that statement, but merely my experience differed, and the previous poster’s statement was merely based on his/her own anectdotal evidence.
Unfortunately, you are making an unwarranted assumption, and it is you that is seeing “what you ‘want’ to see.”
I would caution you on not making those assumptions.
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