How is the LDS a cult?

[twopekinguys]

Hi All,

I’ve been reading this thread for a while and I noticed that one subject never seemed to come up: Blacks and the LDS church.

My understanding is that up until 1978 it was the church’s official doctrine to severely restricted members based on their race (as ‘revealed’ by your god to your prophet Brigham Young). This was reversed with a new revelation by your prophet Spencer Kimbell in 1978.

This revelation resulted in the following beliefs held for the majority of the LDS history:

1. Blacks by nature of their race were excluded to LDS priesthoods

Statements by your prophet Brigham Young:

“The Lord had cursed Cain’s seed with blackness and prohibited them the Priesthood.” (Brigham Young, 1849)

“any man having one drop of the seed of [Cain] … in him cannot hold the priesthood and if no other Prophet ever spake it before I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ I know it is true and others know it” (Brigham Young, 1852)

1. Since priesthood is a fundamental step in the lives of LDS members, Blacks were thus not able to fully participate and be in communion with the LDS church and many temple ordinances.

Since this is historically the case, wouldn’t logic dictate that:

If you believe revelations to your prophets are from your god (specifically the revelations of the late 1840/1850s compared to the 1978 revelation which are diametrically opposed) would that make your god a:

• a racist (since he excluded blacks from full communion because of their race); or
• a flip-flop (since it took him 100+ years to realize the errors of his way and he only did when enough pressure from the civil rights movement threatened the church).

I mean the TRUE God is very consistent in his teachings. Frankly, we Catholics see everyday how this consistent teaching remains steady even with the pressures of modern society pushing against the Truth (i.e. abortion and gay marriage).

But the god of the LDS seems to be willing to backtrack when enough pressure is exerted on your church.

I would love to know what an LDS apologist says about this little conundrum?

God Bless all!

Very good analysis, but something you may not have known is. Many top level schools were starting to refuse to play BYU (church owned) in sports because of their racist policies.

Then, Viola!!! The ban is lifted. Coincidence? Divine Revelation? Which seems more plausible?

Occom’s Razor may apply here. “The simplest explanation is usually the right one.”

 

[twopekinguys]

John 14:7 KJV

If you had known me, you would have known my Father also: and from henceforth you know him, and have seen him.

BTW: I smell a troll

 

[JustaServant]

John 14:7 KJV

If you had known me, you would have known my Father also: and from henceforth you know him, and have seen him.

BTW: I smell a troll

Notice how quickly he high-tailed it after the question was asked?
Google his username, He has a habit of doing that on CARM.

 

[twopekinguys]

Notice how quickly he high-tailed it after the question was asked?
Google his username, He has a habit of doing that on CARM.

They have a tendency of doing that don’t they? It’s funny, when they come over here and start stuff like that, they head for the hills when they have people rebutt what they say.

I don’t go to CARM, I’m afraid my head will explode, and I wouldn’t want to clean up the mess.

 

[kimg901]

How would that be any different than God not allowing anyone but those who obey Him in His kingdom?

As Texan stated “you have to buy your way into heaven”. I didnt know God was charging to enter.

 

[RebeccaJ]

One question here:—was God a racist when He allowed only a small portion of people to hold the OT priesthood–and excluded others–or excluded the Gentiles from the promises?

Was the NT church racists when they disallowed the Gentile from partaking of the gospel–which they eventually changed?

This argument is a red herring. Brigham Young clearly taught that people of African decent were inferior BRFORE they were born, in a pre-existence. Being born white, in Utah, to a Mormon family is a sure sign that in this pre-existence, you did everything right.

Young and other Mormon leaders taught that those who were born black, messed up more than everyone, and therefore were born into a lower station in life. Young also taught that those with black skin would never reach the Mormon goal of godhood, but would be servants to white people who did become gods.

What comparison is there in the Bible, anywhere?

OT priesthood was tribal, no one was believed to be barred from heaven because they weren’t Levites. Not ALL men of this tribe were priests, only a select few. No one was believed to be inferior because they were not Levite. There is no racism here.

The NT Church did not exist until Pentecost. Before then, Jesus had already commissioned the Apostles to go forth and teach all nations, kindreds, tongues and people. There were Judaizers who believed one had to convert to Judaism first, if you were a gentile. This idea was set straight at the Council of Jerusalem, VERY early. It being settled that Gentiles did not need to be circumciszed.

Further race is a social construct that didn’t exist until the 16th century AD. Culturally, early Mormonism adopted a view of Africans that was common in 19th century America. When American culture changed, the Mormon church changed its policy based on social criticism and consequences that started to arise because of Mormon church policy,

Conversely, the NT church was counter-cultural, accepting Gentiles as converts with no extra requirements, and nothing withheld from them.

There is no comparison.

 

[batman1973]

If I may, to toss a wrench in the works, Latter Day Saints believe somewhat different from the Latter-day Saints. From the Remnant LDS FAQ’s:

Question: Are any human works required for salvation?

Salvation is in and through Jesus Christ and no other. Works, or the life of a disciple, requires total submission to His will. See Mark 8: 36-41 and James 2: 15-25, 3: 13.

Question: What is the nature of God?

In a few words, His full nature is portrayed and exemplified in Jesus Christ, the Holy One of Israel. See Isaiah 9: 6-7.

Question: How are you different from the LDS of Utah?

Vastly different. We do not now, nor have we believed the Lord ever directed many spurious doctrines such as progression, multiplicity of gods, Adam as a god, polygamy, and many unscriptural temples ordinances foreign to the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Latter Day Revelation given through Joseph Smith Jr. and his true successors in office.

Indendent RLDS restoration vs. The Utah LDS:reorganizedchurch.org/compare.html

 

[dberrie2000]

dberrie2000,
Simple question.
Is Jesus God?

God the Son.

Question for you:

Who was Jesus’ God?

John 20:17—King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[dberrie2000]

As Texan stated “you have to buy your way into heaven”. I didnt know God was charging to enter.

The faith alone would probably make the same argument about water baptism, or any obedience to God for His grace unto life.

Were you aware that God had an admission criteria for heaven?

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000
One question here:—was God a racist when He allowed only a small portion of people to hold the OT priesthood–and excluded others–or excluded the Gentiles from the promises?

Was the NT church racists when they disallowed the Gentile from partaking of the gospel–which they eventually changed?

This argument is a red herring.

No red herring at all. The Bible plainly states that God disallowed all from the priesthood with the exception of a small group from a particular tribe. A particular lineage.

Brigham Young clearly taught that people of African decent were inferior BRFORE they were born, in a pre-existence. Being born white, in Utah, to a Mormon family is a sure sign that in this pre-existence, you did everything right.

Whatever Brigham Young may have taught–the Bible teaches that God only allowed a few the priesthood–excluding all but a few from a particular tribe. Kicking Brigham Young can’t change that.

 

[dberrie2000]

If I may, to toss a wrench in the works, Latter Day Saints believe somewhat different from the Latter-day Saints. From the Remnant LDS FAQ’s:

Question: Are any human works required for salvation?

Salvation is in and through Jesus Christ and no other. Works, or the life of a disciple, requires total submission to His will. See Mark 8: 36-41 and James 2: 15-25, 3: 13.

Question: What is the nature of God?

In a few words, His full nature is portrayed and exemplified in Jesus Christ, the Holy One of Israel. See Isaiah 9: 6-7.

Question: How are you different from the LDS of Utah?

Vastly different. We do not now, nor have we believed the Lord ever directed many spurious doctrines such as progression, multiplicity of gods, Adam as a god, polygamy, and many unscriptural temples ordinances foreign to the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Latter Day Revelation given through Joseph Smith Jr. and his true successors in office.

Indendent RLDS restoration vs. The Utah LDS:reorganizedchurch.org/compare.html

Just a note here: The RLDS changed their name to the Community of Christ in 2001.

 

[batman1973]

Just a note here: The RLDS changed their name to the Community of Christ in 2001.

Yes, but we aren’t talking about the Community of Christ. There are many other Latter Day Saint churches.

 

[kimg901]

The faith alone would probably make the same argument about water baptism, or any obedience to God for His grace unto life.

Were you aware that God had an admission criteria for heaven?

Uh, were you aware that these so-called christians arent gods but men and are requiring admission to get in to heaven from their fellow brethren? God isnt telling everyone they have to pay money to enter. Earthly possessions are nothing so why charge?

 

[RocketRM]

Whatever Brigham Young may have taught–the Bible teaches that God only allowed a few the priesthood–excluding all but a few from a particular tribe. Kicking Brigham Young can’t change that.

Nice try dberrie!

God revealed himself to the Jews in the OT. The priesthood was confined therefore to the Jews.

With Jesus’ Good News that the sacred priesthood was expanded first to the Jews (since Jesus ministered to them) and then to the Gentiles (through the works of Paul and others).

I can see how you would see this as exclusionary but in fact if you look at it correctly you would see that it was actually a constant expansion. A sign God loves all people.

Now I assume the LDS church believes in the missionary activity of Paul to the Gentiles. Correct? You are also aware that the early Church took root in places like North Africa correct and that these people are generally not exactly Caucasian correct? (Despite what images of early African leaders may look like in renaissance art).

If you will concede me the points above then the Christian and LDS church agree with the expansion of the Church and the fact that non-white persons were incorporated into God’s sacred priesthood:

OT = Jewish priesthood → Proto-Church of the NT = started with Jewish priesthood (i.e. Apostles) and expanded to Gentiles priesthood (by the time of Paul) → Early Church = expansion of priesthood to all corners of the Near East, North Africa, etc.
**
That’s a linear and chronological expansion of the sacred priesthood.**

Since you must believe that Brigham Young’s revelation (as one of your prophets) was the word of god then your god actually contradicted himself by contracting the priesthood by restricting specific races.

Since God does not contradict himself, I conclude that the god of the LDS church is null and is in fact created by men carrying the specific cultural prejudices of their era (i.e. early to mid 19th century American views).

God Bless!

 

[kimg901]

Also, why dont you put down your religion so we know what you are instead of being scared? Why do you hide?

 

[batman1973]

dberrie-Educate yourself on the Latter Day Saint Churches:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latter_Day_Saint_sects There’s waaaay more than two. I belonged to four of them. The LDS, The RLDS, The Remnant LDS, and The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)

 

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 Just a note here: The RLDS changed their name to the Community of Christ in 2001.

Yes, but we aren’t talking about the Community of Christ.

Oh? Was not his your post?

Originally Posted by batman1973 —If I may, to toss a wrench in the works, Latter Day Saints believe somewhat different from the Latter-day Saints. From the Remnant LDS FAQ’s:

Question: Are any human works required for salvation?

Salvation is in and through Jesus Christ and no other. Works, or the life of a disciple, requires total submission to His will. See Mark 8: 36-41 and James 2: 15-25, 3: 13.

Question: What is the nature of God?

In a few words, His full nature is portrayed and exemplified in Jesus Christ, the Holy One of Israel. See Isaiah 9: 6-7.

Question: How are you different from the LDS of Utah?

Vastly different. We do not now, nor have we believed the Lord ever directed many spurious doctrines such as progression, multiplicity of gods, Adam as a god, polygamy, and many unscriptural temples ordinances foreign to the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Latter Day Revelation given through Joseph Smith Jr. and his true successors in office.

**Indendent RLDS restoration **vs. The Utah LDS:reorganizedchurch.org/compare.html

 

[dberrie2000]

Uh, were you aware that these so-called christians arent gods but men and are requiring admission to get in to heaven from their fellow brethren?

You mean such as this example? :

Acts 2:38—King James Version (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[epan]

Also, the LDS is by no means small, and it’s practices are not too strange (besides wearing special undergarments and not being able to drink coffee or alcohol).

Until recently, they taught that black people would turn whiter, the longer they practiced mormonism.

Their doctrine includes the idea that the birth Jesus was the result of actual sexual relations.

Eden was in Missouri.

It is a very long list.

Joseph Smith was a convicted con man. My opinion is that mormonism was his greatest con.

Just my opinion.

 

[Crescentinus]

***Until recently, they taught that black people would turn whiter, the longer they practiced mormonism. ***

Their doctrine includes the idea that the birth Jesus was the result of actual sexual relations.

Eden was in Missouri.

It is a very long list.

Joseph Smith was a convicted con man. My opinion is that mormonism was his greatest con.

Just my opinion.

My questions are on the bold part.
Wait, what!?
They taught that!?