How is traditional catholicism different from catholicism

[ethelzguy]

Uhh, if you want to immitate heretics then go for it:thumbsup:

Who said anything about imitating heretics?

What I am reading here, is that anything a protestant does, we shouldn’t…which is just plain silly.

 

[ethelzguy]

Uhh, if you want to immitate heretics then go for it:thumbsup:

This is the kind of rhetoric that drives many good Catholic CAF-ers away from the TC forum.

Extremism does nothing to advance the faith, except perhaps in the mind of the extremist.

 

[Lisa44]

Who said anything about imitating heretics?

What I am reading here, is that anything a protestant does, we shouldn’t…which is just plain silly.

Hi Ethelzguy,

Why should we do anything a Protestant does? We are not Protestants. Its not silly, its just a fact of life.

 

[Lisa44]

This is the kind of rhetoric that drives many good Catholic CAF-ers away from the TC forum.

Extremism does nothing to advance the faith, except perhaps in the mind of the extremist.

Hi again,

Its only “extremism” to you.

I wasn’t trying to “advance” the faith. But from a Catholic perspective, the Protestants left the true church. Thats not our problem is it? I mean, they are welcome to return. But why on earth should a Catholic embrace something Protestant? It just makes no sense.

If the truth hurts, or “drives” someone away, then they were never here to begin with.

Not everyone has the stomach for the Catholic Church that is true. Many people actually need to be spoon fed like babies even though they are grown adults. Emotionally they need someone to tell them that everything will be ok and its alright, here’s your hot cocoa.



I like that too but I know my soul needs real medicine.

 

[pnewton]

Hi Ethelzguy,

Why should we do anything a Protestant does? We are not Protestants. Its not silly, its just a fact of life.

I think the point is not that we should imitate Protestants, but that because a Protestant Church does something does not mean that Catholics should be barred from doing that thing. For example, if Protestants decide as a majority that translating the Bible from the oldest texts in original languages is a good idea, that does not mean Catholic theologians should avoid doing it, just because Protestants do this.

If we worry too much about what Protestants do, we will be come more of an anti-Protestant and less of a Catholic.

 

[ethelzguy]

I think the point is not that we should imitate Protestants, but that because a Protestant Church does something does not mean that Catholics should be barred from doing that thing. For example, if Protestants decide as a majority that translating the Bible from the oldest texts in original languages is a good idea, that does not mean Catholic theologians should avoid doing it, just because Protestants do this.

If we worry too much about what Protestants do, we will be come more of an anti-Protestant and less of a Catholic.

Thank you

 

[jfoges]

Does it not?

The priest facing the altar and the Mass in Latin were done for more than a thousand years in all Catholic Churches. These are parts of Catholic culture and identity.

It does not, as I think you meant to say, make them more TRUE. Each Mass is true. The fact that they are not essential doesn’t effect that.

So while having the priest face the altar and pray in Latin in no way makes the Mass more true or authentic, it does make it more Catholic, in that these are actions associated with the Catholic Church for a thousand years in the mind of Catholics and Non-Catholics. Praying in the vernacular and facing the people can be done by Catholics, but it’s also been done by protestants (and even non-Christians), so it is not as intrinsically Catholic. As such, I believe an argument could be made that the Tridentine has more Catholic trappings and culture (ie is 'more Catholic) than the Novus Ordo, without casting aspersions on either rite’s validity or core identity as a Catholic service.

If the EF mass is so much more catholic then the OF mass then why dont bishops celebrate it more? Most bishops rarely if ever celebrate the EF, and many are not enthusiastic about its use. Doesn’t this tell you something? We should humbly follow the example of our bishops.

 

[603304529]

Are the bishops as Catholic as they should be??

The Irish Catholic bishops, in 2002, stated that it was ok for Catholics to vote Yes to abortion.

Are they as Catholic as they should be??

 

[pnewton]

Are the bishops as Catholic as they should be??

The Irish Catholic bishops, in 2002, stated that it was ok for Catholics to vote Yes to abortion.

Are they as Catholic as they should be??

I do not get the tie between abortion and traditional catholicism.

 

[603304529]

Sorry, I should have said:

“We should humbly follow the example of our bishops.”

Are the bishops as Catholic as they should be??

The Irish Catholic bishops, in 2002, stated that it was ok for Catholics to vote Yes to abortion.

Are they as Catholic as they should be?? Should we blindly follow our bishops lead?

 

[Rawb]

Because a non-Catholic church does something, we are inherently excluded from doing it?

That is not what I was said at all.

Praying in the vernacular and facing the people can be done by Catholics, but it’s also been done by protestants (and even non-Christians), so it is not as intrinsically Catholic.

I don’t see how I could have got more explicit then that. Please read my posts if you want to comment on them.

My point was this. We’ll use Latin. The Roman Church has, for the 1,500 years before VII, had the Mass in Latin. Protestant Communities did not. They never did a service in Latin.

Is not, then, having a service in Latin more obviously only a Catholic thing? Is it not more Catholic than having a service in the vernacular? Both can be Catholic, but because of history and tradition, is not one more inheritently Catholic?

Imagine you were blindfolded and brought into a room. In front of you is a long isle of pews with a table at the front. On the table are two candles and a white cloth. To the side is a cross. A man is praying in English up at the front, dressed in a white robe.

Blindfolded again, brought to a new room. This one has a long row of pews and a solid marble altar against the wall. There is a communion rail, a tabernacle light, a statue of Mary, and of St. Joseph, with a large crucifix right above the altar. A man in a Roman Chasuble has his back to you and is elevating the Host while praying in Latin.

One more blindfolding. This time there are no pews but only chairs. No kneelers. People are singing and clapping. A man in a polo shirt is standing at what you’d call an ambo, leading everyone. There are large screens behind him projected with the lyrics to the song. A full band with backup singers and dancers are on stage.

Tell me-where you are in each room? What is each room?

 

[elts1956]

You weren’t the only one who fails to see the subtlety in this.

As to the original post, the label of “traditional catholic” is only useful as a broad description. In this forum it is used to describe a preference for a TLM:
****

The term is useless as an insult or a stereotype. It is better to stick to the simpler definition in which Traditional Catholics prefer a specific type of Mass and spirituality. Obviously those who are not Traditional Catholics still adhere to Catholic Tradition, or else they would not be Catholic.

Likewise “Modern Catholic” is useless as an insult and stereotype, do to the vagueness of the term. I want to laugh at the irony of “modern” being used as an insult on a computer and over the internet.

Holy Cow!! I guess I don’t know what I am then. I thought Traditional and “modern” Catholics, for lack of a better label, are those who hold the Church’s dogmas and doctrines to be absolute. I didn’t realize the type of Mass one attends is all there is in a description of either. Seems a bit narrow defination for so complex a religion.

 

[Lisa44]

One more blindfolding. This time there are no pews but only chairs. No kneelers. People are singing and clapping. A man in a polo shirt is standing at what you’d call an ambo, leading everyone. There are large screens behind him projected with the lyrics to the song. A full band with backup singers and dancers are on stage.

Tell me-where you are in each room? What is each room?

Youre funny. If I was in that last room I’d says I was in hell.

 

[elts1956]

Who said anything about imitating heretics?

What I am reading here, is that anything a protestant does, we shouldn’t…which is just plain silly.

I don’t know why Catholics of a certain ilk deny that Christ is in all of us to a lesser or greater degree. There are many fine Protestants out there, who although they don’t have the “full truth” of the Catholic Chruch are certainly not heretics. In fact Protestants are no longer called heretics.

 

[Lisa44]

I don’t know why Catholics of a certain ilk deny that Christ is in all of us to a lesser or greater degree. There are many fine Protestants out there, who although they don’t have the “full truth” of the Catholic Chruch are certainly not heretics. In fact Protestants are no longer called heretics.

Awww, that gives me such a nice warm fuzzy feeling.

Listen, I have much beloved friends who are in the Anglican religion. I love them. But I’d be a liar if I didn’t tell them that they should come on over to the Catholic church and stop being such a silly willy. Henry VIII needs to get over himself and so do you!

Its immature to leave the Catholic Church because YOU think YOU know better. That is silliness in the highest. Don’t you agree?

Maybe there was a Pope or two who you don’t agree with. So What? Are you smarter than a Pope? Why didn’t God make you the Pope? If you are so smart?

 

[reggieM]

You’re lost reggieM. Do you know what a tradition is?

SFD

Yes – the origin of the term is “handed down”, in Latin.

You’re already failing to make a distinction between custom and the Deposit of the Faith.

In the comparison with Arians, the Nicene forumlae were actually novelties which didn’t exist before the Council.

But since “I’m lost”, I’ll look for your explanation here.

 

[reggieM]

Well…thanks anyway for playing, reggie. Better luck next time.

I’m always glad to play the traditionalist game. I’m just glad to see you admit what it really is.

 

[pnewton]

Holy Cow!! I guess I don’t know what I am then.

Good! We are supposed to post anonymously. I guess you are just doing a really good job of it!

Seriously, the definition of traditional catholic in the context of this forum is easy enough to find. It is listed in the forum rules. Obviously this is not the only one, but the best one in this context.

 

[elts1956]

Awww, that gives me such a nice warm fuzzy feeling.

Listen, I have much beloved friends who are in the Anglican religion. I love them. But I’d be a liar if I didn’t tell them that they should come on over to the Catholic church and stop being such a silly willy. Henry VIII needs to get over himself and so do you!

Its immature to leave the Catholic Church because YOU think YOU know better. That is silliness in the highest. Don’t you agree?

Maybe there was a Pope or two who you don’t agree with. So What? Are you smarter than a Pope? Why didn’t God make you the Pope? If you are so smart?

I’m leaving the Church?? When did I decide that? Boy, things happen behind my back all the time and I always thought it was “others” doing those things.

How did you read all you said into what I posted? Numbs MY mind. I think I am smarter than the Pope/s?? Heaven help me!

Read Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on Ecumenism Ut Unum Sint. What I said stands as what I said.

 

[Hammerofheresy]

I’ve been thinking lately about Traditionalist Catholicism.

Being a true Catholic means being faithful to all of Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The teachings of the Catholic Church remain the same through all time, and are continually taught by the infallible magisterium of the Church. The bishops and Holy Father have the authority to teach infallibly what has been true in every generation, and which has its source in the Apostles.

So how is being a Traditionalist Catholic any different from being a Catholic? It seems to me that being a Traditionalist Catholic means that you believe that true tradition has been abandoned and is only maintained by a small faithful remnant, while the rest of the Church has lost its way.

Isn’t this calling into question the teaching authority of the Church in an unfair and imprudent manner? Isn’t this also based on severe misunderstandings of the pre and post conciliar teachings of the Church on issues such as liturgy and religious liberty?

More and more I am starting to see Traditionalist Catholicism as a disobedient and unhealthy movement in the Church that has wrought a lot of bad fruit, such as schismatic groups, cult like groups, and confusion of the faithful.

The diff is simple. In the 1960’s Pope John XIII “opened the windows of the Church to the modern world” and let the incense out of the Church and let the stink of unwashed hippies of the 1960’s in. Being a Traditional Catholic means that you believe what the Church has always taught before a few liberals in the Vatican thought that Gods church wasn’t good enough and needed to be updated. To be traditional means to follow the faith and receive the sacraments as your ancestors and thousands of Saints did for 1800 years or so before the Vatican II council thought it needed an updating, which as it has turned out has been one giant catastrophe.