How is traditional catholicism different from catholicism

[Hammerofheresy]

It seems to me that being a Traditionalist Catholic means that you believe that true tradition has been abandoned and is only maintained by a small faithful remnant, while the rest of the Church has lost its way.

For some trads yes, for me no. I happen to believe that in the 1960’s an optimist Pope,John XXIII felt that the Church needed updating.(which was a theory condemned by all his predecessors) So he called a council which was finished by another over the Top optimist Paul VI. This has causduntold harm to the dignity of the liturgy and Church discipline and Church teachings in general. The faith is still in the Church it is just buried by dissenting liberals. It needs a strong Pope to issue some well placed Anathamas to get things going again. Benedict has started to make things better by allowing the Extraordinary Mass to be celebrated again, this will help immensly. I am a bit of a trad myself and I do not think the Church has lost its way just 97% of its hierachy and Priests. As to the faithful if you are faithful to the teachings of the Church and don’t believe the Church started in 1970 then of course you have the faith. The faith is inside you. Mind you I attend the Ordinary rite and attend the extra-ordinary only once a month. So I guess I am not really up to date on what “extreme traditionalists” think. This is just my opinion.

 

[elts1956]

For some trads yes, for me no. I happen to believe that in the 1960’s an optimist Pope,John XXIII felt that the Church needed updating.(which was a theory condemned by all his predecessors) So he called a council which was finished by another over the Top optimist Paul VI. This has causduntold harm to the dignity of the liturgy and Church discipline and Church teachings in general. The faith is still in the Church it is just buried by dissenting liberals. It needs a strong Pope to issue some well placed Anathamas to get things going again. Benedict has started to make things better by allowing the Extraordinary Mass to be celebrated again, this will help immensly. I am a bit of a trad myself and I do not think the Church has lost its way just 97% of its hierachy and Priests. As to the faithful if you are faithful to the teachings of the Church and don’t believe the Church started in 1970 then of course you have the faith. The faith is inside you. Mind you I attend the Ordinary rite and attend the extra-ordinary only once a month. So I guess I am not really up to date on what “extreme traditionalists” think. This is just my opinion.

The more I get into various issues, especially the one regarding abortion, the scarier it gets. I see little support, so far, for pro life in my parish. I have seen “little” things in other parishes while the priest is saying Mass that leaves me wondering “Just how did he come by that?” I think at heart I am a Traditionalist who empathises with those who have not known the Catholic Church until after the 60s. BUT, again, I say, reverence at Mass has nothing to do with the form of the Mass, but the catechesis one has experienced and the Catholic education one has gotten.

 

[Rawb]

BUT, again, I say, reverence at Mass has nothing to do with the form of the Mass, but the catechesis one has experienced and the Catholic education one has gotten.

Perhaps. People have argued over whether one or the other is inheritently more reverent, but this is not the thread to do so in again. You’re probably right, and it would depend on the priest. After all, apparently there are very solemn and glorious Novus Ordo Masses that are on level with the Latin Mass, but I’ve never seen one. At the same time I’ve heard of Latin Masses where priests rushed through the Mass in little or no time flat, and that is obviously lacking reverence.

It just happens that those who love the Latin Mass, love it. As such they spend more time and put more effort into it than the average Novus Ordo priest does in his liturgy. I’d be quite happy if I found one of those Novus Ordo Masses others have said they’ve attended, but as it is now, I ***feel ***(note the word showing my opinion) that the Latin Mass offers more reverence to God in the Sacrafice then what I see at my (admittedly overworked) Novus Ordo.

 

[LilyM]

Hi Ethelzguy,

Why should we do anything a Protestant does? We are not Protestants. Its not silly, its just a fact of life.

Really? Not even slightly silly?

Feel free not to use churches, candles, Bibles, clerical vestments, incense, bread and wine, or clerical collars then, nor to have people in the Church who are designated by the name ‘Bishop’ - since Protestants do all of the above and we shouldn’t do anything a Protestant does.

And that’s just the things they do IN CHURCH - you want me to name EVERYTHING they do, none of which, by your logic, we should do?

 

[mullenpm]

Lisa44, how dare you say that
“OF Catholics are ignorant because most of them grew up with it. They don’t know anything different.”

I went to Catholic school in the 1930s and I certainly knew the so-called “traditional” Mass, but I am also a loyal to the Papacy Catholic. Actually, the Mass never did change; we still celebrate the Holy Eucharist. What is it that you miss so much?

Are you really saying that you do not go to Mass unless you can go to an EF Mass because the NO Mass is so OBJECTIONAL?

 

[pnewton]

The diff is simple. In the 1960’s Pope John XIII “opened the windows of the Church to the modern world” and let the incense out of the Church and let the stink of unwashed hippies of the 1960’s in.

The Catholic Church must be charitable to all.

James 2:1-9

My brothers, show no partiality as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ. For if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in fine clothes comes into your assembly, and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in, and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say, “Sit here, please,” while you say to the poor one, “Stand there,” or “Sit at my feet,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil designs? Listen, my beloved brothers. Did not God choose those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom that he promised to those who love him? But you dishonored the poor person. Are not the rich oppressing you? And do they themselves not haul you off to court? Is it not they who blaspheme the noble name that was invoked over you? However, if you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

To be traditional means to follow the faith and receive the sacraments as your ancestors and thousands of Saints did for 1800 years or so before the Vatican II council thought it needed an updating, which as it has turned out has been one giant catastrophe.

FYI. You have re-defined the term to suit your needs. By your definition, no one is traditional (because their is no one way of receiving the Sacraments that has lasted for 1800 years) or most every one here is, even those that they have never been to the TLM, because they still follow the faith that has been around all that time.

I am a bit of a trad myself and I do not think the Church has lost its way just 97% of its hierachy and Priests

I must admit I am distressed to see some new poster jump onto this board claiming the 97% of our beloved priests and bishops have lost their way. It says much more about you than it does them.

 

[Lisa44]

Really? Not even slightly silly?

Feel free not to use churches, candles, Bibles, clerical vestments, incense, bread and wine, or clerical collars then, nor to have people in the Church who are designated by the name ‘Bishop’ - since Protestants do all of the above and we shouldn’t do anything a Protestant does.

And that’s just the things they do IN CHURCH - you want me to name EVERYTHING they do, none of which, by your logic, we should do?

Maybe I misunderstood. I meant why should we change the Catholic Mass for modern times. (ie: like the Protestants changed the Catholic Mass to suit themselves).

I don’t even understand what you you think I meant?

 

[Lisa44]

I’m leaving the Church?? When did I decide that? Boy, things happen behind my back all the time and I always thought it was “others” doing those things.

How did you read all you said into what I posted? Numbs MY mind. I think I am smarter than the Pope/s?? Heaven help me!

Read Pope John Paul II’s encyclical on Ecumenism Ut Unum Sint. What I said stands as what I said.

Context…Henry the VIII…Protestants leaving the Catholic church…

Not you.

 

[Lisa44]

Lisa44, how dare you say that
“OF Catholics are ignorant because most of them grew up with it. They don’t know anything different.”

I went to Catholic school in the 1930s and I certainly knew the so-called “traditional” Mass, but I am also a loyal to the Papacy Catholic. Actually, the Mass never did change; we still celebrate the Holy Eucharist. What is it that you miss so much?

Are you really saying that you do not go to Mass unless you can go to an EF Mass because the NO Mass is so OBJECTIONAL?

You lost me…

 

[Rawb]

I must admit I am distressed to see some new poster jump onto this board claiming the 97% of our beloved priests and bishops have lost their way. It says much more about you than it does them.

While I would disagree with such a high percentage, what the poster is saying isn’t all that shocking.

We have bishops who’ve given Holy Communion to men dressed as women, part of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence (widely known for having approval of a certain Parish Church in San Fancisco) who support, practice, and encourage a homosexual lifestyle.

A priest in my diocese just encouraged his parishoners to vote against Prop. 8 which would make gay marriage illegal in California once more, directly against what his bishop (and the others in California) have stated.

The French Bishops tell the Holy Father that they are not subordinate to him upon his arrival in France.

We have priests telling people that it is a matter of conscience as to whether or not a couple should use birth control.

I have had priests tell me in the confessional that non-Catholic churches are ok because there is just so much diversity out there now.

We supposedly have three bishops who attempted to ordain women from womenpriests movement.

These men have lost the faith, or at least great chunks of it. Why is it that when a bishop or priest stands up for a Catholic teaching, and it is reported on the Catholic News Forum, that everyone celebrates and cheers? It would just be commonplace if there wasn’t such a high number of priests and bishops who were dissidents. It should not be news that a Catholic Bishop told a group of homosexual groups that the Church teaches that homosexual acts are sinful, but that news story is on that forum right now.

 

[pnewton]

While I would disagree with such a high percentage, what the poster is saying isn’t all that shocking.

But the crazy percentage is the problem. You gave four examples in a Church of a billion. We could also throw in the 1-2% the are child molesters. That should not be a taint on all priests and bishops that are faithful to the Church.

BTW- The womenpriests cadre have been ex-communicated.

thefloridacatholic.org/rop/2008_rop/2008_roparticles/20080530_rop_women_priests.php

 

[LilyM]

Maybe I misunderstood. I meant why should we change the Catholic Mass for modern times. (ie: like the Protestants changed the Catholic Mass to suit themselves).

I don’t even understand what you you think I meant?

I know that you MEANT to say ‘why should we change as Protestants do’. But what you SAID was simply ‘why should we do anything a Protestant does’, which is an entirely different and quite silly statement. You didn’t misunderstand, but you certainly hashed it up in the stating.

And the Mass HAS changed ‘for modern times’ quite a few times in the past.

The change from Greek to Latin was a concession to the fact that in ‘modern times’ (those being a few centuries after Christ) Latin was much more widely spoken and understood than Greek.

And while the Mass of Trent specifically superseded ONLY those forms of the Mass that were less than 200 years old, we know that the older rites - Mozarabic, Ambrosian and so on - didn’t exactly flourish, even though they were still permitted, while the ‘more modern’ TLM took over. Dare I say almost (but admittedly not involving nearly the same extent of change) in the same way the NO took over when IT was promulgated.

As for changing ‘to suit themselves’ - do you really think the Mass wasn’t changed for somewhat higher reasons and with somewhat higher motives? Not that those aims were probably achieved by the change, but I don’t think the intent was mere innovation for its own sake.

 

[alih]

mathew 7/1: judge not, that you may not be judged.
7/6: give not that which is holy to dogs; neither
cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps
they trample them under their feet, and turning
upon you, they may tear you.
it is fortunate that some judgements must be made for which is appropriate and which is not.
have a good year. (alih)

 

[pnewton]

mathew 7/1: judge not, that you may not be judged.
7/6: give not that which is holy to dogs; neither
cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps
they trample them under their feet, and turning
upon you, they may tear you.
it is fortunate that some judgements must be made for which is appropriate and which is not.
have a good year. (alih)

The whole passage

1 *"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. 2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. 3 Why do you notice the splinter in your brother’s eye, but do not perceive the wooden beam in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove that splinter from your eye,’ while the wooden beam is in your eye? 5 You hypocrite, 3 remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye. 6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, 4 or throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them underfoot, and turn and tear you to pieces. *

In the reference above, if considers the whole passage, it is difficult to see where verse 6 is encouraging being judgemental to our fellow Christians, by use of the word brother. Traditionally, the pearl before swines bit has been interpreted to the kingdom (which is else where called a pearl) being preached to those who are not worthy of it, because of their hardness of heart. This has nothing to do do with granting permission to disregard the words just spoken and judging or brothers, be they “unwashed hippies” or not.

 

[bkovacs]

I agree with most of what you say here, but just as it seems harmful to have imposed revolutionary change in the Liturgy, and yank the Gregorian Rite away from those who knew nothing else, it would also be quite a shock to take the OF away from those who have only known that form of the Liturgy.

The fact is, it happened, and we can’t change that. We can only put our faith in BXVI to begin the healing. My switch from radical traditionalist ( I was never a “vacant chair” catholic) to one of calling myself traditional because of what I embrace, is what I feel BXVI wants me to do. I can only hope it pleases Our Lord. No Mass, no matter how liberal the priest, flock, or sermons are, can hurt my faith. No amount of Liturgical abuse can shake it. And frankly, I seldom encounter such.

So what are you going to do when Benedict XVI is gone and the next Pope takes office. There is not to many Cardinals who share his liturgical views. That’s a question that many traditional Catholics need to be asking?. He is over 80 years old. What is your spiritual plan of action?.

 

[bkovacs]

Hi I Believe,

I looked up call to action, here is a bit from their webpage -

…the assembly declared the church must stand up to the chronic racism, sexism, militarism and poverty in modern society. And to do so in a credible way the church must reevaluate its positions on issues like celibacy for priests, the male-only clergy, homosexuality, birth control, and the involvement of every level of the church in important decisions.



Thanks for the information.

“Call To Action” is nothing but a group of heretics that need to be Excommunicated from the Catholic Church!!.

 

[Matt33]

. There is not to many Cardinals who share his liturgical views. .

This is just an odd statement. How do you know what the Cardinals think. Have you no faith that the Holy spirit leads us and not YOUR or Modernist political views. There will be a Pope, He will or will not have the same leaning and Christs Church will remain. Could it be that your bias is showing?

 

[I_Believe]

So what are you going to do when Benedict XVI is gone and the next Pope takes office. There is not to many Cardinals who share his liturgical views. That’s a question that many traditional Catholics need to be asking?. He is over 80 years old. What is your spiritual plan of action?.

Well, who elected BXVI ? Do you honestly believe the Cardinals you mentioned were not at the Conclave ? Perhaps some did not vote for him, but obviously there are enough Cardinals who do see BXVI as the man for the job. I don’t see them electing a liberal next time around

I don’t have a plan of action lol. Action to address what ? Do you think if a liberal becomes the next Pope all the priests that are training to, and now praying the Gregorian Rite since the SP are going to wipe their brows and say “whew, glad that’s over” ?

Come on man, it’s a great time to be Catholic. Don’t look for plans of action to address fears of trends that are not there. Every step BXVI takes in those wonderful red shoes is in the right direction.

Springtime is here !

one for the money,
two for the show,
three to get ready,
now go man go,
get pious,
and don’t step on those cool red shoes,
don’t worry 'bout the lukewarm,
lest you get them blues…

 

[bkovacs]

This is just an odd statement. How do you know what the Cardinals think. Have you no faith that the Holy spirit leads us and not YOUR or Modernist political views. There will be a Pope, He will or will not have the same leaning and Christs Church will remain. Could it be that your bias is showing?

Bias to what?. I attend an Orthodox Church now. And the Orthodox are far from influenced by modernist views!.

 

[pnewton]

Bias to what?. I attend an Orthodox Church now. And the Orthodox are far from influenced by modernist views!.

So you are an ex-Catholic?

I asked because normally most ex-catholics here are not real plugged in to what is happening in the Church, much less what the next conclave will be like