How long should one pray to know that Mormonism is true?

[Finrock]

Hi Finrock,

I hear you, but the passage itself makes a promise that is meaningless unless the
Answer follows a prayer of faith 100% of the time.

I simply disagree with this. James 1:5-6 makes a similar promise. I don’t think his promise is meaningless if someone doesn’t receive an answer from God. We can’t guess at God’s motives nor His timetable. Answers to prayers come unbidden and when God chooses to answer, if at all. I’ve no doubt that the promise James makes in the Bible is accurate and because someone didn’t experience the promise that James makes doesn’t allow me to either doubt James or to discount the person’s experience. I can’t speak for any of it or assume any definitive conclusions.

I do know, however, how I’ve experienced the principles that have been taught in the scriptures, and I can speak to that. I can share my perspective and my experiences only.

It’s not that you said I lacked faith (you didn’t). But that’s the message that is communicated by that verse, regardless of your motive for presenting it. It is Joseph Smith (through Moroni’s words) who says I lacked faith. By presenting the verse, you’re opening the door for that accusation to be made and are thus guilty by association. But I do thank you for your civility and the kindness of your tone. So many Mormons in the past have just come out and said “you lacked faith,” and then they trotted out Moroni’s promise as evidence. You’re weren’t that direct. But regardless, it is true that the discussion of Moroni’s promise even in general terms does make the accusation of faithlessness to those who put that promise to the test and didn’t get the expected answer. Either directly or indirectly, the accusation is still made through the use of that particular passage.

NewSeeker

Again, I respectfully disagree with your position. The logic doesn’t necessitate your conclusions and neither does my experience. Not all prayers that I’ve made have been answered. I can’t assume each time that a prayer wasn’t answered that I have a fault or that I lack faith. If I can’t assume that for myself, I definitely can’t assume that to be the case for other people.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[hosemonkey]

Thank you!

Well, that’s the obvious conclusion from my experience isn’t it, and I agree with you that upon examining the evidence there’s no need to even pray to ask whether it’s true since there’s no confirming evidence that the BOM is a true historical document. But I didn’t get to a point where I could admit that until after I gave up praying for a testimony that never arrived. Ironically, I do find spiritual truth in the Chronicles of Narnia. I love C.S. Lewis. I can glean truths about Christ from his fiction precisely because I know that it’s fiction and was never advertised to be anything but fiction. That allows me to read Lewis and appreciate his efforts to communicate his Christian faith through that medium. I can’t do that with the BOM, precisely because it is fiction advertised as true history. Good point.

Now that’s what I’m talking about. mormons are continually trotting out references or “proof texts” from documents that either have no historical validity (BOM) or have no spiritual authority (D&C,POGP etc.) All documents of mormon manufacture, with no relevence or credibility to anyone but mormons. One cannot practice law in California if one is only conversant in the law as practiced in Bhutan. I know that they fondly believe that their “scripture” is true, but it is only “true” to them. They choose to believe a false code, but what is most offensive is that they market this falsehood as true scripture.

 

[ParkerD]

Hello again ParkerD,

Do I have feelings of peace or transcendence in my life right now? Yes. Have I felt them in the past? Yes. Do I know unequivocally and without doubt that those feelings are caused by the Holy Spirit? No. I have felt such feelings in the wardhouse, listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir sing, listening to Buddhist monks chant, sitting on a hilltop watching the sun rise, saying prayers communally during Mass and especially after receiving the Holy Eucharist, even at rock shows when the music is just ON, the groove sets in and the audience and the band almost become one organism, making the music together. Was that the Spirit causing the feelings of transcendence in all or only some of those instances? Who knows, and, given the vast range of possible ways that people say they have “felt the Spirit” around the world across time, there’s not a person on the planet who will have the same answer about which experiences of transcendence are truly from the Holy Spirit and which are not. To me, reliance on such feelings can never be a valid way to get at truth. My experience searching for a testimony of the Book of Mormon just strengthened that view anyway, by completely burning out of me any hope that feelings can ever be relied upon. I’ve never witnessed the Spirit causing any of the feelings I’ve felt, so I have no way of knowing whether the Spirit was really the source, and I don’t believe anyone anywhere really knows, though people love to think that their peaceful, transcendent feelings were caused by God. If I choose to believe that the Spirit caused any one of those feelings, that would just be an assumption on my part, an act of faith. But that’s not knowledge. So, in answer to your question, I have no idea whether I’ve ever felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in my life. Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t. I won’t know for sure, and neither will anyone else, until we actually observe God or the Spirit putting the feelings inside of us. But since God is not present to our senses, how can this happen? It can’t. So, what do I go by as my guide for a spiritual life? How did I end up a Catholic? Since I don’t trust feelings, that just leaves me my brain, the use of reason, and a review of the evidence (philosophical and historical). That’s why I believe in God and why I am a Catholic. That’s not to say that I can’t point to events in my life that could very well be evidence of the hand of God. But to be sure, I don’t just go by the feelings I experience, which could easily be self-manufactured. Instead, I see critical life events as additional evidence that provides support to the results of my studies of philosophy, theology, and history. Since I believe Catholicism on those grounds, it’s easy for me to look back and see how certain events occurred that led me inexorably to my new life as a Catholic. I need all of this evidence to believe that God has had his hand in my life. Good feelings or “promptings of the Spirit”, which is just another way to say “I felt something”, aren’t sufficient. If that was all I needed to go by, then I would be a Mormon-Catholic-Buddhist-Naturalist-Indie Rock Fan, since those are the places where my good feelings lead me.

God is Gracious - it’s only 95 degrees in Dallas!??!!? Turn up the thermostat fast before frostbite sets in! Thanks for pointing out that the very act of prayer is proof of a person’s faith. That is so true.

New Seeker,
Thanks for the descriptive and insightful explanation. I guess we have different experiences. I have learned to tell a difference between euphoria and the Holy Spirit. I think Paul knew what he was talking about when he wrote:

“10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

I think sometimes people haven’t learned in their life experience to distinguish a difference between sensory experiences that may be euphoria alone, and a sensory experience that communicates knowledge and understanding about truth from and about God and His purposes. There is a significant palpable difference. I haven’t felt the Spirit with a choir singing or being in the mountains (though I love being there). I haven’t felt it when I have “wanted” to feel it, or when I have “wanted” an answer.

My whole body and whole soul feel truth and feel a palpable connection to God in two-way communication when I feel the Holy Ghost. At those moments I feel outwardly charitable and inwardly joyful and every part of my being feels “aligned with God” and “in tune” with His purposes. Those moments have come many times, but as directed by God’s will, not mine.

 

[NewSeeker]

I simply disagree with this. James 1:5-6 makes a similar promise. I don’t think his promise is meaningless if someone doesn’t receive an answer from God. We can’t guess at God’s motives nor His timetable. Answers to prayers come unbidden and when God chooses to answer, if at all. I’ve no doubt that the promise James makes in the Bible is accurate and because someone didn’t experience the promise that James makes doesn’t allow me to either doubt James or to discount the person’s experience. I can’t speak for any of it or assume any definitive conclusions.

I do know, however, how I’ve experienced the principles that have been taught in the scriptures, and I can speak to that. I can share my perspective and my experiences only.

Again, I respectfully disagree with your position. The logic doesn’t necessitate your conclusions and neither does my experience. Not all prayers that I’ve made have been answered. I can’t assume each time that a prayer wasn’t answered that I have a fault or that I lack faith. If I can’t assume that for myself, I definitely can’t assume that to be the case for other people.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Well, now we’re right back to the original question posed in this thread - how long then must a person pray and wait for God to confirm someone’s faith that the Book of Mormon is true? Your answer seems to be that you must never stop praying since God will answer that prayer in His own time, according to His own agenda. If true, then the logical conclusion is that a person must never give up praying for confirmation regarding the BOM for their entire life, even if they never get the confirmation they seek. In other words, they must live their life entirely on faith and never truly KNOW that the book is true. If I was an investigator, that would mean I would have to let the missionaries in when they knock, read the BOM, pray about it, go to church, and never stop believing and praying for confirmation my entire life - and never, ever obtain that all so important witness of the Spirit until I’m dead!! But that’s not helpful at all, is it. Do you believe God would do such a thing? Or do you think there is a limit to the amount of time God would make someone wait? In fact, I think it’s rather cruel of a God who is supposed to be Love to subject someone to such an experience (which is why I don’t believe that God will make a sincere seeker wait very long to provide an answer to such a critical question). If that is how God operates, then religious faith is just a game of chance. You’d just better be lucky that you put your faith in the right tradition, cause God sure isn’t going to answer your prayer in this lifetime and you’re in big trouble if your roll of the dice doesn’t place you in God’s approved church. That kind of God is capricious, something I don’t believe in. I agree that God won’t answer some prayers and will answer prayers as he pleases according to his inscrutable purposes. But I don’t believe that all prayers fall into that category. I can’t believe that and believe in a just and loving God at the same time. Some prayers demand an answer, if God is truly just. To me, prayers about whether Mormonism is the true church fall into that category. And in my experience, I interpret God’s silence to mean the answer to that prayer is a resounding “NO!!!”

NewSeeker

 

[ricko]

It is a mistake to use the “burning in the bosom” as proof of the Holy Spirit. How can we be sure that when someone claims to “have” the Holy Spirit that they are speaking the truth? The fact is no one, even the person making the claim, can be sure that it is the Holy Spirit within them. There is also no outward sign of possessing the Spirit. The “feeling” that they have can be anything from indigestion to an evil spirit. In talking about scripture with people who have opposing viewpoints, each party claimed to be guided by the Holy Spirit, yet they disagreed! It is clear that since the Holy Spirit is truth, one or more of those fellows were mistaken about having the Holy Spirit.

One Mormon brought up Luke 24 using a statement that their “hearts were burning”. But in the beginning of Luke when the two women told about the tomb being empty no one believed them. Peter, ran to the tomb himself to SEE if it was true.

The two men walking that were visited by Jesus did indeed have burning in their hearts all the while but they still DID NOT know who He was. While He was walking with them He interpreted for them every passage of Scripture which referred to him beginning with Moses. So did Jesus rely on the burning in their hearts to convience them. No, He REASONED with them by using Scripture.

 

[ParkerD]

It is a mistake to use the “burning in the bosom” as proof of the Holy Spirit. How can we be sure that when someone claims to “have” the Holy Spirit that they are speaking the truth? The fact is no one, even the person making the claim, can be sure that it is the Holy Spirit within them. There is also no outward sign of possessing the Spirit. The “feeling” that they have can be anything from indigestion to an evil spirit. In talking about scripture with people who have opposing viewpoints, each party claimed to be guided by the Holy Spirit, yet they disagreed! It is clear that since the Holy Spirit is truth, one or more of those fellows were mistaken about having the Holy Spirit.

One Mormon brought up Luke 24 using a statement that their “hearts were burning”. But in the beginning of Luke when the two women told about the tomb being empty no one believed them. Peter, ran to the tomb himself to SEE if it was true.

The two men walking that were visited by Jesus did indeed have burning in their hearts all the while but they still DID NOT know who He was. While He was walking with them He interpreted for them every passage of Scripture which referred to him beginning with Moses. So did Jesus rely on the burning in their hearts to convience them. No, He REASONED with them by using Scripture.

Rick,
So Paul didn’t know, John didn’t know, Peter didn’t know, Moses didn’t know, Elijah didn’t know, James didn’t know, no one has ever known if the Holy Spirit was really with them?

 

[NewSeeker]

Ricko, that’s a great point and I agree 100%. ParkerD and Finrock, it’s true that I have not had any sort of recognizable experience of the Holy Spirit in my life. That lack, despite my efforts to have such an experience, is the principal source of angst in my life. The LDS response to that is to always either point a finger or say God will answer in his own time. That is not helpful at all. I prefer the Catholic view that faith is a gift from God and that my incessant desire to find God is evidence that I have faith, which is God’s gift to me. It is also a Catholic view that my lack of experience of God’s presence could very well be God waiting to see how strong that faith is and whether I will stay with him through the long, dark night of feeling God’s absence in my life, the long, dark night of the soul described so eloquently by St. John of the Cross, a Doctor of the Church. So, you see, Mormonism has no answers that help me. Only Catholicism offers the answers that provide me the comforts of a spiritual life lived without feeling the presence of God. Mormonism, by contrast, is all about those promptings of the spirit testified to ad infinitum every Sunday in church in the form of “Brothers and Sisters, I feel the spirit so strongly today…I’d like to bear my testimony, I know this church is true.” And so forth.

NewSeeker

 

[NewSeeker]

Rick,
So Paul didn’t know, John didn’t know, Peter didn’t know, Moses didn’t know, Elijah didn’t know, James didn’t know, no one has ever known if the Holy Spirit was really with them?

I think Ricko is only saying that they knew, but not merely because they felt something, which is what I’m also saying. Rather, they did feel something, but first there was reasonable evidence presented. Peter walked with the Lord and witnessed miracles, including the resurrection. Paul had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus. Elijah heard God’s voice. The disciples on the road to Emmaus had the scriptures read to them and were reasoned with by the disguised Jesus. Then they felt their hearts burn within them. Faith and the evidence go together. Without supporting external evidence, no it’s not possible to know whether spiritual feelings are truly from God.

NewSeeker

 

[Jerusha]

So did Jesus rely on the burning in their hearts to convince them? No, He REASONED with them by using Scripture.

And some of them became angry and uncomfortable, but once they worked through those mere feelings, they knew that He was right.

It is not a mere “burning in the bosom”-- it has to be backed up by logic, common sense, and information available.

I have faith that there is something to be learned from the Book of Mormon, but that does not make it sacred scripture. It only looks that way, because of the way it was written, and set up in the modern version.

When LDS say that they get sad when they start reading something that challenges their beliefs, it is because their investment in Mormonism is being challenged. It is not because the challenge is wrong.

I had some intense emotional experiences during my research, I understand.

 

[RebeccaJ]

“Discernment”, being the operative word here. God can and does use any means to bring people to truth. To say that it is only by feeling is to limit how God works in our lives and in our hearts. To say that feelings are excluded, is also limiting.

God gave us our ability to reason. Faith and reason are not at odds. If a person “feels” a certain way, they should pray for God’s help in discerning His will for them. To have any other person interpret what God is giving to another, is faulty. To say “good feelings” = God’s will and “bad feelings” = God has left the building, is not truly discernment. It is only assigning meaning to feelings. It is only another person, or organization, telling you what your feelings mean.

True discernment is a question of acting truthfully in order to come into the light: “Lord, what do you want me to do?”

 

[Finrock]

Your answer seems to be that you must never stop praying since God will answer that prayer in His own time, according to His own agenda.

This wouldn’t be my answer and it isn’t what I was suggesting.

If true, then the logical conclusion is that a person must never give up praying for confirmation regarding the BOM for their entire life, even if they never get the confirmation they seek. In other words, they must live their life entirely on faith and never truly KNOW that the book is true.

Perhaps the need to get an answer on the Book of Mormon specifically isn’t necessary for some people? Sometimes we can know truth by extension. Let’s consider an example to illustrate what I mean. Suppose we’ve been led to believe, through various life experiences, that trusting in God’s words is something we should do. So, we read in scripture, a source that we’ve come to trust in, that we should give of our substance to the poor. Well, logic dictates to us that if we give our stuff away, we will have less stuff. There isn’t any benefit to us. But, we trust the source of the counsel, and therefore by extension, we trust the counsel itself and we give our substance to the poor. If experience has borne out that we can always trust someone, then it is reasonable to not question the counsel or guidance of that person. Sometimes we may not receive a direct answer to every question, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have reason to believe. We can believe in truths and have faith in them, by extension of our other life experiences.

In the same way, a person who may be investigating the Church doesn’t always need to pray about the Book of Mormon. Many actually don’t, yet they believe it is true. They believe it because they’ve applied the principles that they’ve learned in the Book of Mormon or that which the missionaries have taught them in their life, and they’ve seen that these principles have led them to Christ. It has brought joy to them and changed their hearts. Therefore, they have no reason to doubt that the Book of Mormon is false or not true. They simply believe. And there is something to be said about this type of faith. Atheist mock it, for sure, but I think it is admirable.

If you can remember from Moses, when Adam was offering sacrifices, an angel appeared to him and asked, “Why dost thou offer sacrifices unto the Lord? And Adam said unto him: I know not, save the Lord commanded me” (Moses 5:6). Adam, having learned to trust God from his past experiences, simply obeyed because God commanded it. He didn’t require a confirmation or a reason to obey. Of course the angel then goes on to explain the reason why Adam should offer up sacrifice, but I suspect that Adam would have obeyed that commandment for the rest of his life without ever knowing anything more about it.

One last comment. I don’t agree with the sentiment that God must answer some prayers, else He is an unjust God. We simply are in no position to demand anything from God. Our life is a test of faith and we will have to live by faith. It seems to me that very seldom do we get firm, definitive answers to our prayers. I believe God will give us what is necessary and what is best for us and our situation.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[ParkerD]

I think Ricko is only saying that they knew, but not merely because they felt something, which is what I’m also saying. Rather, they did feel something, but first there was reasonable evidence presented. Peter walked with the Lord and witnessed miracles, including the resurrection. Paul had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus. Elijah heard God’s voice. The disciples on the road to Emmaus had the scriptures read to them and were reasoned with by the disguised Jesus. Then they felt their hearts burn within them. Faith and the evidence go together. Without supporting external evidence, no it’s not possible to know whether spiritual feelings are truly from God.

NewSeeker

New Seeker,
How many places do the scriptures need to tell someone they shouldn’t seek for a sign for that concept to be believed?

The reason this becomes so important, is that there are ties between the powers of heaven (harnessed only by faith), the power of charity (the pure love of Christ), the power inherent in hope, and the power of truth-communication from the Holy Ghost. Otherwise, although there is power in the saving message of the gospel in and of itself, when tough times come a person may waver; when the true powers of heaven are needed, they are only accessible through pure two-way communication.

 

[zerinus]

Well, now we’re right back to the original question posed in this thread - how long then must a person pray and wait for God to confirm someone’s faith that the Book of Mormon is true? Your answer seems to be that you must never stop praying since God will answer that prayer in His own time, according to His own agenda. If true, then the logical conclusion is that a person must never give up praying for confirmation regarding the BOM for their entire life, even if they never get the confirmation they seek. In other words, they must live their life entirely on faith and never truly KNOW that the book is true. If I was an investigator, that would mean I would have to let the missionaries in when they knock, read the BOM, pray about it, go to church, and never stop believing and praying for confirmation my entire life - and never, ever obtain that all so important witness of the Spirit until I’m dead!! But that’s not helpful at all, is it. Do you believe God would do such a thing? Or do you think there is a limit to the amount of time God would make someone wait? In fact, I think it’s rather cruel of a God who is supposed to be Love to subject someone to such an experience (which is why I don’t believe that God will make a sincere seeker wait very long to provide an answer to such a critical question). If that is how God operates, then religious faith is just a game of chance. You’d just better be lucky that you put your faith in the right tradition, cause God sure isn’t going to answer your prayer in this lifetime and you’re in big trouble if your roll of the dice doesn’t place you in God’s approved church. That kind of God is capricious, something I don’t believe in. I agree that God won’t answer some prayers and will answer prayers as he pleases according to his inscrutable purposes. But I don’t believe that all prayers fall into that category. I can’t believe that and believe in a just and loving God at the same time. Some prayers demand an answer, if God is truly just. To me, prayers about whether Mormonism is the true church fall into that category. And in my experience, I interpret God’s silence to mean the answer to that prayer is a resounding “NO!!!”

NewSeeker

The mistake you are making is that you are assuming that your experience is the same as everybody else’s. Unfortunately (for you) that is not the case. You are the exception rather than the rule. Ignoring the majority of people who are not interested in Mormonism (or even religion) at all, and don’t bother to look at it from the start; by far the majority of those few who do go through the conversion process and eventually end up joining the Church, do so after obtaining a spiritual confirmation of its truth. Cases such as yours are ones that our missionaries simply do not understand; and after they have done all they can with it, they drop it and move on to the next. I don’t know what makes you think that your situation, which is such an exceptional one in the Mormon experience, requires more than a cursory attention from the Latter-day Saints.

 

[NewSeeker]

ParkerD and Finrock,

Let me explain it this way. Suppose you’re an orphan and as an adult a knock is heard at your door and five couriers are there and each says he represents your Father, and hands you an address book with directions for finding your dad. Each says he has an inheritance for you that “dad” will give you if you choose the right one by showing up at his residence by 6pm that day. If you don’t make it by 6pm, you will be disinherited and will never hear from him again. It’s now 5pm and you only have time for one visit before the time expires. It’s only possible that one of the “dads” is your real Father. The other four are either deluded or lying. You have no other information on which to base your decision. What if each “dad” also said “you can’t seek for additional information since that shows a lack of faith in me?" Now, in addition to the fact that that’s not a very nice set of rules for “dad” to create in the first place, would your decision to gather additional information reveal a lack of faith or sign-seeking behavior? No. Doing so, if there’s time, is very rational given the scenario. If fact, it’s the only reasonable thing to do. The religious quest is a lot like this scenario. All we get is messages delivered by other people who claim to represent our Father and we only get one shot. How do we choose among the competing claims if God doesn’t give us something obvious and recognizable to help us choose? How could he judge us for our choice if all we have is a bunch of competing religious books people hand us and claim to be the truth? We can’t just go with the courier/prophet that makes us “feel” right. That’s not enough. You have to have something else, some other kind of evidence that distinguishes between the claimants. Seeking for that something is not sign-seeking.

NewSeeker

 

[NewSeeker]

The mistake you are making is that you are assuming that your experience is the same as everybody else’s. Unfortunately (for you) that is not the case. You are the exception rather than the rule. Ignoring the majority of people who are not interested in Mormonism (or even religion) at all, and don’t bother to look at it from the start; by far the majority of those few who do go through the conversion process and eventually end up joining the Church, do so after obtaining a spiritual confirmation of its truth. Cases such as yours are ones that our missionaries simply do not understand; and after they have done all they can with it, they drop it and move on to the next. I don’t know what makes you think that your situation, which is such an exceptional one in the Mormon experience, requires more than a cursory attention from the Latter-day Saints.

Not at all, Z. All I’m saying is the Mormon approach to finding truth doesn’t work for everyone and was extremely damaging for me personally, and for those like me (regardless of whether we’re in the minority there are others out there like me). I found healing within the Catholic faith. That’s all I’m trying to say.

NewSeeker

 

[zerinus]

Not at all, Z. All I’m saying is the Mormon approach to finding truth doesn’t work for everyone . . .

Maybe so. I can’t say I know for sure.

. . . and was extremely damaging for me personally, and for those like me (regardless of whether we’re in the minority there are others out there like me).

Now that is something I don’t understand. I don’t see why that should be.

I found healing within the Catholic faith. That’s all I’m trying to say.

Good for you. I am glad to hear it. And let me assure you that I have found the same in the LDS Church.

 

[jake23]

Not getting a answer from God is the answer. God is not of the Mormon belief, infact he is not the same God! I am an exmormon and know the beliefs well! The Mormons believe that Gos was once a man and that Jesus us a seperate being. This is not the same God and Christ in the Bible. You will find a well thaught out excuse for every contradiction with the Bible VS. the Book of Mormon. It will be pointless to try to convince a Mormon of the truth nore will you get a honest answer to anything contradicting. Read, pray, and educate yourself Biblically and then read the Book of Mormon and you should find it is was made by a conman. watch the DVD’s The Book of Mormon VS the Bible and the Book of Mormon Vs. DNA. You can find them both on youtube. Good luck and God bless!

 

[zerinus]

ParkerD and Finrock,

Let me explain it this way. Suppose you’re an orphan and as an adult a knock is heard at your door and five couriers are there and each says he represents your Father, and hands you an address book with directions for finding your dad. Each says he has an inheritance for you that “dad” will give you if you choose the right one by showing up at his residence by 6pm that day. If you don’t make it by 6pm, you will be disinherited and will never hear from him again. It’s now 5pm and you only have time for one visit before the time expires. It’s only possible that one of the “dads” is your real Father. The other four are either deluded or lying. You have no other information on which to base your decision. What if each “dad” also said “you can’t seek for additional information since that shows a lack of faith in me?" Now, in addition to the fact that that’s not a very nice set of rules for “dad” to create in the first place, would your decision to gather additional information reveal a lack of faith or sign-seeking behavior? No. Doing so, if there’s time, is very rational given the scenario. If fact, it’s the only reasonable thing to do. The religious quest is a lot like this scenario. All we get is messages delivered by other people who claim to represent our Father and we only get one shot. How do we choose among the competing claims if God doesn’t give us something obvious and recognizable to help us choose? How could he judge us for our choice if all we have is a bunch of competing religious books people hand us and claim to be the truth? We can’t just go with the courier/prophet that makes us “feel” right. That’s not enough. You have to have something else, some other kind of evidence that distinguishes between the claimants. Seeking for that something is not sign-seeking.

NewSeeker

The last I heard it was Joseph Smith who was faced with just that problem, and he figured a way to resolve it. He followed the advice he found in the Bible, not in the Book of Mormon. If you can’t trust the Book of Mormon, then maybe you can trust the Bible better!

 

[Christian55]

As missionaries we always told people to read it and pray about it. Obviously, you don’t believe you need to pray about it to know that it is true even though the Book of Mormon claims the way to know it is true is to pray about it. I don’t need to pray about it anymore either. I can tell it’s not true just by reading it. All that time spent praying about it seems a waste of time in retrospect. I knew a person who claimed he could get a “burning in his bosom” any time he prayed about the Book of Mormon and for that reason he knew the Book of Mormon was true.

This is such an interesting comment. I also heard a New Mormon Convert say something similar. She said as soon as she touched the Book of Mormon, it was like a shock went through her hand and she just knew it was true.

I’ve read some of it. No “shock waves” or “burning in the bosom.” It seemed so obviously forged. That was my immediate response; and the more I read, the worse it sounded.

Many parts of it seem to be a re-write of the Bible, replacing true Biblical Scripture with Mormon beliefs.

 

[ricko]

I think Ricko is only saying that they knew, but not merely because they felt something, which is what I’m also saying. Rather, they did feel something, but first there was reasonable evidence presented. Peter walked with the Lord and witnessed miracles, including the resurrection. Paul had a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus. Elijah heard God’s voice. The disciples on the road to Emmaus had the scriptures read to them and were reasoned with by the disguised Jesus. Then they felt their hearts burn within them. Faith and the evidence go together. Without supporting external evidence, no it’s not possible to know whether spiritual feelings are truly from God.

NewSeeker

Bravo. Beautifully stated!