How long should one pray to know that Mormonism is true?

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jake23 said:
Not getting a answer from God is the answer. God is not of the Mormon belief, infact he is not the same God! I am an exmormon and know the beliefs well! The Mormons believe that Gos was once a man and that Jesus us a seperate being. This is not the same God and Christ in the Bible. You will find a well thaught out excuse for every contradiction with the Bible VS. the Book of Mormon. It will be pointless to try to convince a Mormon of the truth nore will you get a honest answer to anything contradicting. Read, pray, and educate yourself Biblically and then read the Book of Mormon and you should find it is was made by a conman. watch the DVD’s The Book of Mormon VS the Bible and the Book of Mormon Vs. DNA. You can find them both on youtube. Good luck and God bless!
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Thank you so much for your post! I just finished a 2-part Post regarding the origins of Mormonism:

Post 205 & 206 on Thread: Mormons and Catholics Get Along Fine!
Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5428578#post5428578

I have been following the LDS Threads. More often than not, when LDS Forum Members are faced with difficult questions, they claim the questions have been answered, when they clearly have not. Then they vanish and move to another Thread. Some resort to all sorts of name-calling and accusations. This behavior does not represent Mormonism well, and it does nothing to answer questions.

It seems very much like a one-way propaganda effort.
 
Finrock said:
Good evening Byzantine_Wolf! I hope you are doing well. 🙂
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Hi there 😃
Finrock said:
What you’ve posted doesn’t represent the “Mormon concept” of praying. This overly simplistic view is often asserted as being what a member of the LDS church means when they ask someone to pray or when they are speaking about their own experiences. I think it is asserted most often because it is just what someone has heard about the Mormons and they don’t really know any better or sometimes it is asserted because it is very easy to argue against this simplistic and naive notion of prayer. Critics find great use from dumbing down, in essence, what prayer really means to a member of the LDS church, and what exactly it entails because it makes it that much easier for them to make the LDS religion look ridiculous to their audience. The reality is much different, and if you’ll allow me, I will try to explain the best that I can with words something that is essentially experienced by the heart (not the physical organ).

First, I think it is important to recognize that God is all powerful. Being all powerful and having absolute agency, God is capable of answering a person’s prayers in anyway He wishes…
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I think you misunderstood my post. I was not attacking the idea of prayer, nor the idea that God answers prayer. I was attacking the common request by LDS missionaries to read the Book of Mormon and pray to God to show whether or not it is true, and God will let them know in their heart that it is true.

Once, during my more hectic spiritual period, I was visited by two LDS missionaries (who by the way were very polite, just so you know). I respectfully listened to their story, and when they came to the story of Joseph Smith’s encounter with the Father and the Son, one of them said, “I know this is true because this happened to me.” I was a bit astounded by this and asked him to explain. He went on to say that what he meant was he prayed for God to prove the Book of Mormon was true, and God answered his prayer in his heart.

The fact is that this is the fault of many (but not all) Charismatic churches, especially the ones who turn the Holy Spirit into a kind of magical power source. They demand that a decision or method of worship be placed on feeling rather than the Divine Truth that lies within God’s various methods of Grace. I came to Christianity not because of a nice feeling, but because of the truth I saw before me, which I could not deny. C.S. Lewis was the same way, as was Lee Strobel - both men began as staunch atheists/agnostics but, because of the truth they found in their research of Christianity, came to Christ.

My original scripture quote emphasized that the heart is often a fickle thing. Christian theology says that at the end times all our hearts will be opened, and it will be there that God will find out what type of person we were. I cannot base a decision, especially one involving conversion and belief of a certain theology, on a prayer after which I should expect a strange feeling in my chest. As a friend of mine once said, for all I know it could be heartburn.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
I think you misunderstood my post. I was not attacking the idea of prayer, nor the idea that God answers prayer. I was attacking the common request by LDS missionaries to read the Book of Mormon and pray to God to show whether or not it is true, and God will let them know in their heart that it is true.

Once, during my more hectic spiritual period, I was visited by two LDS missionaries (who by the way were very polite, just so you know). I respectfully listened to their story, and when they came to the story of Joseph Smith’s encounter with the Father and the Son, one of them said, “I know this is true because this happened to me.” I was a bit astounded by this and asked him to explain. He went on to say that what he meant was he prayed for God to prove the Book of Mormon was true, and God answered his prayer in his heart.

The fact is that this is the fault of many (but not all) Charismatic churches, especially the ones who turn the Holy Spirit into a kind of magical power source. They demand that a decision or method of worship be placed on feeling rather than the Divine Truth that lies within God’s various methods of Grace. I came to Christianity not because of a nice feeling, but because of the truth I saw before me, which I could not deny. C.S. Lewis was the same way, as was Lee Strobel - both men began as staunch atheists/agnostics but, because of the truth they found in their research of Christianity, came to Christ.

My original scripture quote emphasized that the heart is often a fickle thing. Christian theology says that at the end times all our hearts will be opened, and it will be there that God will find out what type of person we were. I cannot base a decision, especially one involving conversion and belief of a certain theology, on a prayer after which I should expect a strange feeling in my chest. As a friend of mine once said, for all I know it could be heartburn.
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It seems from your response that you didn’t read my posts at all, or if you did I have grossly failed in my ability to communicate. Your posts is once again attributing a quality to the LDS belief system that is foreign to it and then arguing against that position. I don’t know how else to say and explain that this isn’t simply about praying for a mere feeling.

You may deny the heart as the receptical of revelation within man, but many of your religious theologians disagree with you, as do I. Of course, when you misrepresent the principle by making it out to be just mere feelings and even mockingly referring to it as “heartburn” it is no wonder that you have your doubts. But, the true principle is actually a lot more than that and it is quite a bit deeper in its scope. Obviously, however, you aren’t interested in my words, so pick up the small book by Fr. Seraphim Rose, “God’s Revelation to the Human Heart” and perhaps you will appreciate the words of a priest from your own religion who certainly understands the principle I am speaking to. 🙂

Kind Regards,
Finrock
 
The short article Testing The Book of Mormon By Moroni 10:4 brings together some of the objections brought up on this thread as well as some new ones in an insightful manner.

My Fav:

“Second, Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device. It promises a particular result if certain terms are met. But the terms reflect on the seeker’s integrity as regards both his sincerity and resolve, and on his faith in Christ. To be willing to rely on the promise of this verse as a test for the Book of Mormon’s truthfulness one must already have concluded somehow that its instruction is valid and its promise reliable. That is, one must already believe in the “truthfulness” of this verse. If the verse is true, then the only possible explanation for failing to obtain the result promised is a failure to meet the terms. That is, one must lack a sincere heart, and/or real intent, and/or faith in Christ. If one believes the verse is true then one must obtain the answer promised, or face an embarrassing judgement of one’s sincerity, intent, or faith in Christ. The seeker is forced into convincing himself he has had some kind of manifestation from God, just to vindicate his own character. Or worse, he is moved to a frame of mind where he will gladly and indiscriminately embrace any supernatural manifestation as though it were from God. Plain reason, not to mention all the force of Scripture’s revelation of the character of God, testifies that God would not, does not, use such manipulative mind/ego games against the human family to bring them to believe the truth. God does not approve, and truth does not need, such machinations.”

Read at your leisure if you so desire.
 
Finrock said:
It seems from your response that you didn’t read my posts at all, or if you did I have grossly failed in my ability to communicate. Your posts is once again attributing a quality to the LDS belief system that is foreign to it and then arguing against that position. I don’t know how else to say and explain that this isn’t simply about praying for a mere feeling.
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I have not done anything except repeat what your Church’s missionaries are telling people to do, and inquired about the possible flaws within its theology and methodology.

And I’m quite familiar with Fr. Seraphim Rose. He considers Mormonism a heresy and would agree with me that the heart is a fickle thing that can trick people - read his opinion on Roman Catholic mystics and meditation, and you shall see what I mean. 🙂
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Hi there 😃

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not attacking the idea of prayer, nor the idea that God answers prayer. I was attacking the common request by LDS missionaries to read the Book of Mormon and pray to God to show whether or not it is true, . . .
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That is a contradiction. One minute you are saying that you believe that God hears and answers our prayers, and next minute you are questioning that He does.
. . . and God will let them know in their heart that it is true.
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That maybe what the missionaries told you, but that is not what the Book of Mormon itself says. The Book of Mormon simply says that you will know the truth of it by the power of the Holy Ghost. It does not specify how the Holy Spirit will communicate that knowledge to you. I find that everybody’s experience is in fact different. God has an infinite variety of ways of communicating something to someone, depending on their level of spiritual development, maturity, faith, and natural and personal disposition. The reason why the missionaries sometimes tell people that God will reveal it to them in their “hearts” is because people often ask how God will reveal the truth of it to them; and spiritual experiences are not easily explainable in terms of natural phenomena or human language. That is the best answer they can give. Perhaps they shouldn’t be giving them that answer. The correct answer ultimately is the one given in the Book of Mormon, that God will reveal it to them “by the power of the Holy Ghost”. How He will do that depends on the Lord, and on the individual concerned. What the investigator needs to do is to trust the Lord that He will. One thing is certain: when that revelation comes, you will be left in no doubt that God has spoken to you.
Once, during my more hectic spiritual period, I was visited by two LDS missionaries (who by the way were very polite, just so you know). I respectfully listened to their story, and when they came to the story of Joseph Smith’s encounter with the Father and the Son, one of them said, “I know this is true because this happened to me.” I was a bit astounded by this and asked him to explain. He went on to say that what he meant was he prayed for God to prove the Book of Mormon was true, and God answered his prayer in his heart.
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Well, that is his way of explaining his experience. You will likely have a different experience, or will be able to express it in different words which are more eloquent than his. But I repeat what I said before: when God decides to communicate the truth of the Book of Mormon to you (in whatever manner He chooses), you will be left in no doubt that He has.
The fact is that this is the fault of many (but not all) Charismatic churches, especially the ones who turn the Holy Spirit into a kind of magical power source. They demand that a decision or method of worship be placed on feeling rather than the Divine Truth that lies within God’s various methods of Grace. I came to Christianity not because of a nice feeling, but because of the truth I saw before me, which I could not deny. C.S. Lewis was the same way, as was Lee Strobel - both men began as staunch atheists/agnostics but, because of the truth they found in their research of Christianity, came to Christ.
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My original scripture quote emphasized that the heart is often a fickle thing. Christian theology says that at the end times all our hearts will be opened, and it will be there that God will find out what type of person we were. I cannot base a decision, especially one involving conversion and belief of a certain theology, on a prayer after which I should expect a strange feeling in my chest. As a friend of mine once said, for all I know it could be heartburn.
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This is an offensive comment. You have been repeatedly told that this is not the position of Mormonism. Your constant repetition of that worthless mantra suggests that you may not be genuinely interested in knowing the truth at all; and have adamantly made up your mind in your “fickle heart” what you want to believe, and intend to stick with it no matter what.
 
Skinny Jay,
I noticed your post about manipulation. I suppose if one believes that, they would assert that Hebrews 11 is manipulative about the principle of faith and John 3 is manipulative about the baptism of fire.

Moroni 10:5 says “by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.”

Moroni 10:4 is talking about opening one’s own heart and beginning a process of two-way communication that is integral to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not describing an end; it is describing a beginning point. The whole gospel is about a change of heart in a person, a conversion, a “rebirth” that means the person will no longer be the same person. This is what sanctification is all about. If a person thinks they are going to be manipulated by living the gospel, then how can they have the faith necessary to begin the process of change that Christ promises will bring them peace and healing in abundance in their life?

Revelation 3:5 says “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” Christ does the knocking, and humankind does the opening of the door. The verse provides a sure promise, but not if the person doesn’t have enough desire and faith and trust to “open the door.” If they think they are going to be manipulated by opening the door, they won’t open and they will stay the same way they were, because Christ and the Holy Ghost will not change a heart that does not want to be lifted by that change.
 
zerinus said:
That is a contradiction. One minute you are saying that you believe that God hears and answers our prayers, and next minute you are questioning that He does.
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It is hardly a contradiction, but a request to be wary, which is consistent with patristic and scriptural thought. As the passage I quoted before said, the human heart is not always a truthful source, and many Church Fathers, when talking about dreams or visions, said that if we’re not certain if they come from God or the devil then it’s best to ignore them and God will understand - He’d rather see us be careful than willingly accept something that may be coming from the devil.
zerinus said:
One thing is certain: when that revelation comes, you will be left in no doubt that God has spoken to you.
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I will certainly have doubt God has spoken to me, because the God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity. 🙂
zerinus said:
This is an offensive comment. You have been repeatedly told that this is not the position of Mormonism. Your constant repetition of that worthless mantra suggests that you may not be genuinely interested in knowing the truth at all; and have adamantly made up your mind in your “fickle heart” what you want to believe, and intend to stick with it no matter what.
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I simply believe that being asked to “pray” to see if a heresy is true is a silly thing to request. Many Muslims say the same thing: read the Koran, and pray that God may show you (in any way) that it is true. As I pointed out in the section you quoted, many famous Christians came to Christ by research and the Truth that was presented to them. Yes, that was God working to bring them to Him, but it was not by a simple prayer request. Even the original apostles, when going out at Pentecost, did not ask the people to pray but reminded them that they knew Jesus, testifying to the Truth that Christ was.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
It is hardly a contradiction, but a request to be wary, which is consistent with patristic and scriptural thought. As the passage I quoted before said, the human heart is not always a truthful source, and many Church Fathers, when talking about dreams or visions, said that if we’re not certain if they come from God or the devil then it’s best to ignore them and God will understand - He’d rather see us be careful than willingly accept something that may be coming from the devil.
I will certainly have doubt God has spoken to me, because the God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity. 🙂
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Zerinus does not seem to understand that you can pray until you turn green and mormonism will still not be true. Wishing will not make it so. Any “spirit” that confirms the “truth” of mormonism is not of God, but of the Deceiver.
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Byzantine_Wolf said:
Hi there 😃

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not attacking the idea of prayer, nor the idea that God answers prayer. I was attacking the common request by LDS missionaries to read the Book of Mormon and pray to God to show whether or not it is true, and God will let them know in their heart that it is true.

Once, during my more hectic spiritual period, I was visited by two LDS missionaries (who by the way were very polite, just so you know). I respectfully listened to their story, and when they came to the story of Joseph Smith’s encounter with the Father and the Son, one of them said, “I know this is true because this happened to me.” I was a bit astounded by this and asked him to explain. He went on to say that what he meant was he prayed for God to prove the Book of Mormon was true, and God answered his prayer in his heart.

The fact is that this is the fault of many (but not all) Charismatic churches, especially the ones who turn the Holy Spirit into a kind of magical power source. They demand that a decision or method of worship be placed on feeling rather than the Divine Truth that lies within God’s various methods of Grace. I came to Christianity not because of a nice feeling, but because of the truth I saw before me, which I could not deny. C.S. Lewis was the same way, as was Lee Strobel - both men began as staunch atheists/agnostics but, because of the truth they found in their research of Christianity, came to Christ.

My original scripture quote emphasized that the heart is often a fickle thing. Christian theology says that at the end times all our hearts will be opened, and it will be there that God will find out what type of person we were. I cannot base a decision, especially one involving conversion and belief of a certain theology, on a prayer after which I should expect a strange feeling in my chest. As a friend of mine once said, for all I know it could be heartburn.
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Well said.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
I will certainly have doubt God has spoken to me, because the God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity. 🙂
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As you know, Mormons believe that Christianity is Apostate; so what you call “the God of Christianity” is actually the God of “Apostate Christianity”. 😃
 
hosemonkey said:
Zerinus does not seem to understand that you can pray until you turn green and mormonism will still not be true. Wishing will not make it so. Any “spirit” that confirms the “truth” of mormonism is not of God, but of the Deceiver.
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Byzantine_Wolf said:
It is hardly a contradiction, but a request to be wary, which is consistent with patristic and scriptural thought. As the passage I quoted before said, the human heart is not always a truthful source, and many Church Fathers, when talking about dreams or visions, said that if we’re not certain if they come from God or the devil then it’s best to ignore them and God will understand - He’d rather see us be careful than willingly accept something that may be coming from the devil.
I will certainly have doubt God has spoken to me, because the God of Mormonism is not the God of Christianity. 🙂

I simply believe that being asked to “pray” to see if a heresy is true is a silly thing to request. Many Muslims say the same thing: read the Koran, and pray that God may show you (in any way) that it is true. As I pointed out in the section you quoted, many famous Christians came to Christ by research and the Truth that was presented to them. Yes, that was God working to bring them to Him, but it was not by a simple prayer request. Even the original apostles, when going out at Pentecost, did not ask the people to pray but reminded them that they knew Jesus, testifying to the Truth that Christ was.
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zerinus said:
**As you know, Mormons believe that Christianity is Apostate; so what you call “the God of Christianity” is actually the God of “Apostate Christianity”. :**D
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Zerinus:

Finally you have spoke truth about the Mormon belief: “the God of Christianity is actually the God of Apostate Christianity.” I agree that your god is not the God of Christianity.

You said, “Mormons believe that Christianity is Apostate.” I have no doubt this is a true statement.

The deception arises when Mormons claim they are Christian. Thank you for clarifying this issue for us, and thank you for being honest about your Mormon beliefs.
 
Christian55 said:
Zerinus:

Finally you have spoke truth about the Mormon belief: “the God of Christianity is actually the God of Apostate Christianity.” I agree that your god is not the God of Christianity.

You said, “Mormons believe that Christianity is Apostate.” I have no doubt this is a true statement.

The deception arises when Mormons claim they are Christian. Thank you for clarifying this issue for us, and thank you for being honest about your Mormon beliefs.
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What that means is that Mormons worship the God of the Bible. I don’t know what kind of a God it is that you worship.
 
zerinus said:
What that means is that Mormons worship the God of the Bible. I don’t know what kind of a God it is that you worship.
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mormons worship the god who lives near a star called Kolob. This god bears no resemblance to the God of the Bible. We worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Truth and the First Person of the Blessed Trinity, of which mormons are not familiar.
 
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