How many Catholic couples contracept and/or are sterlized?

[Phemie]

Well, now you are fiddling with the facts.

No conference of bishops has any right to tamper with infallible teachings on faith and morals. I am certain that the Winnipeg Statement received a sound response from the CDF.

The teaching on contraception is part of the ordinary infallible Magisterium, and as such, binding on all Catholics.

I’m not fiddling with anything. The Winnipeg Statement stands unresponded to by Rome to this day. Most priests still function based on its content.

 

[Phemie]

As an adult convert, I too am sometimes baffled by this. When I was an adolescent and young adult, I did not know ANY Catholics, none of my family were Catholic. The fact that the Catholic Church did not allow birth control was general knowledge. Comics made jokes about it on TV, movies, novels, magazines, it was just one of those facts that everyone knew.

But you’re in the US where things are very different as I can see by these boards. In Canada there was a very different train of thought and whenever any of those jokes were heard we just thought the people assumed they knew what Catholics believed because that was not our experiece as Catholics.

 

[mercygate]

I’m not fiddling with anything. The Winnipeg Statement stands unresponded to by Rome to this day. Most priests still function based on its content.

The Winnipeg Statement does not override the ordinary universal Magisterium. You wouldn’t be here if you thought it did.

You have explained how you got to where you are.

OK. That’s done. Now decide whether you will the fact that the people who should have guided you properly were wandering around lost themselves.

Just decide. We don’t need to know the outcome.

 

[rick43235]

This post is nothing but an attempt to point the finger and what you claim as “just and observation” is entirely a judgement.

Since I am the one who made the above referenced observation, I am going to assume that your little hissy fit was directed at me.

While I suppose it could be argued that I made an invalid assumption about families with few children, in no way was I pointing any fingers or being judgemental. As I mentioned more than once, I don’t care whether or not someone uses ABC. So, there is nothing for me to be judgemental about.

How is it possible to make the assumption that all large families are dysfunctional and the children have problems?

I don’t think it is possible to make such an assumption, and I don’t think anyone made such an assertion. I know that I didn’t.

I can make the assumption that Jesus is not in the Eucharist because, well…I don’t see him in there…I don’t taste him either, just my observation.

Well, I’m not sure I would agree with your assumption, but your observation is certainly valid. Sounds like something you might want to take up with your priest.

You must have a big beam in your eye!

I think your observations are unjust, and very presumptuous and critical.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are reading way more into what I said than what is actually there.

 

[duskyjewel]

If the CDF has not come out and condemned the Winnipeg statement, what does that mean about the Vatican’s commitment to making sure the Church is teaching the same thing, everywhere, all the time? Could it be that perhaps the Vatican does have respect for the pastoral concerns expressed by dissenting national conferences? Could it be that even the Vatican is not as strict in enforcing this teaching, and condemning those who fail to follow it, as some American Catholics? We Americans have a peculiar cultural streak that says, “If a little is good, then more must be better, and A LOT is the best!” We tend to go overboard on things…

The Vatican has the power and authority to condemn the Winnipeg statement at any time. The Church has condemned Liberation Theology and suspended priests who refuse to stop preaching is tenets. It does not shrink from disciplining and punishing in the dame of doctrinal purity. The fact that it has NOT in this case is highly interesting to me… This was one of JP II’s bugaboos, and even HE didn’t make sure the Winnipeg statement was officially condemned?

 

[SwizzleStick]

Hmm, I imagine that most Catholics contracept simply because of cultural factors and because they don’t realize the gravity of using ABC, though I really can’t begin to guess accurately how many actually do.

I am a cradle Catholic as is my husband and we are the only couple in both families who practice NFP, (though one sibling/spouse have had to deal with testicular cancer AND infertility issues in marriage, so they likely do not practice any form of family planning/birth control). Both of our families have sibs whose spouses have had vasectomies. I do not know any other Catholic couples who practice NFP, though I have to say that it isn’t something that comes up in casual conversation.

I NEVER hear preaching against ABC at Mass during homilies. I always knew that the Catholic Church prohibits using ABC, but I did not know that doing so was a mortal sin until the last 5 years or so, so my guess is that a lot of Catholics are unaware of the specifics of Church teaching and the gravity of the sin of using ABC. They probably do not know AND would not want to know, either. At least in my family situation, I’m pretty sure that none of my sibs or in-laws would want to hear about it and at this point (post vasectomy), it would be a bit pointless, though confession might be a nice suggestion to them and something for me to think about bringing up to them, I suppose. NOT looking forward to that, though.

 

[newbetx]

If the CDF has not come out and condemned the Winnipeg statement, what does that mean about the Vatican’s commitment to making sure the Church is teaching the same thing, everywhere, all the time? Could it be that perhaps the Vatican does have respect for the pastoral concerns expressed by dissenting national conferences? Could it be that even the Vatican is not as strict in enforcing this teaching, and condemning those who fail to follow it, as some American Catholics? We Americans have a peculiar cultural streak that says, “If a little is good, then more must be better, and A LOT is the best!” We tend to go overboard on things…

The Vatican has the power and authority to condemn the Winnipeg statement at any time. The Church has condemned Liberation Theology and suspended priests who refuse to stop preaching is tenets. It does not shrink from disciplining and punishing in the dame of doctrinal purity. The fact that it has NOT in this case is highly interesting to me… This was one of JP II’s bugaboos, and even HE didn’t make sure the Winnipeg statement was officially condemned?

There was a post on another thread last week, I think, that said the Canadian Bishops “clarified” their statement and accepted the HV from Rome. So no condemnation would be required… I’ll have to go dig. My memory is not so good, so it may take some time to dig that up.

Priests spend years in the seminary but don’t learn everything, nor is everything taught there 100% correct. I get this information from a not so reliable source… CAF postings. But I can believe at least some of it since it makes sense to my experience elsewhere in life. That aside…

Many of the statistics I’ve seen battered about don’t make much sense to me… like 95% of (people who claim to be) Catholics use ABC… I’ve heard a third of american catholics are sterilized. If 4-6% use NFP, then the first can’t be true since many, many Catholics are either naturally infertile, or past fertile age. **I would love to have a good reliable set of numbers. **why? To help educate, not to be nosey.

As for using the quotes, I too, took it as a judgmental use of the term eventhough it may not have been intended that way. There are people that claim to be Catholics but never go to mass anymore. So the debate of what is required to make one “truely Catholic” goes on and on. And apparently the Pharisees haven’t died off over the course of a couple of millenia either since so many that do post here want some of us cast out for various reasons of “unworthyness” including what type of Mass we do attend.

And as Christopher West says. He and his wife only have two kids. How they wish they could have more, but, so far, nothing. So judging anyone based on the number of kids by their side is not a good thing to do. I know a couple that adopted two kids because she was infertile… at age 42, surprise! A healthy daughter! So, I’ve learned, fertility comes and goes.

And lastly, of those that are informed, we are called to inform, not condem. I think priests do the best they can with what they know or have heard. I think there is much to learn about our faith and no one can know it all.

 

[newbetx]

Imagine how my poor husband feels now that I have discovered this site and read some of this stuff. Married 32 years and suddenly nothing that we used to do is OK. I don’t even feel able to tell him why I’ve withdrawn.

He’s like a previous poster, still interested but not able to achieve penetration in 99% of attempts. Now, rather than to put myself in a position of sin I withdraw from his touch. He’s confused about why I never seem to be interested, even though that is a zillion miles away from the truth. To tell him why would have him think I’m nuts, especially when none of this was brought up in his marriage preparation (we weren’t in the same city so although I had no marriage prep, he did).

Maybe your questions can be answered in this other thread… If not, maybe The Good News About Sex and Marriage can shed some light on things. Above all else you said “yes” to sex when you married. I think TGNAS&M will help you two understand the “whys” behind the “don’ts” that will help your situation even though it’s not “typical.” Peace be with you!

 

[Howard_Roark]

So…if I make a “San Antonio statement” about some teaching I don’t like…and send it to Rome…and I don’t hear back…I can ignore the teaching, according to the Candian Bishops?

Cool. This is going to make being Catholic a LOT easier.

Drafting my statement now…anyone have the address for the Vatican?

 

[jwashu]

So…if I make a “San Antonio statement” about some teaching I don’t like…and send it to Rome…and I don’t hear back…I can ignore the teaching, according to the Candian Bishops?

Cool. This is going to make being Catholic a LOT easier.

Drafting my statement now…anyone have the address for the Vatican?

LOL!

Truth is though this is a VERY difficult subject. I know that B16 had a task force a year or so ago evaluating the use of condoms in regards to the AIDS epidemic in Africa… yet I never heard what the final concluson was from that.

We are luckly I guess… as converts I spent a lot of time studying the teachings of the Chuch before I ever even called for RCIA. Many of the famlies with young childen in our Parish (we have about 1200-1500 families) do practice NFP or at least try. We have a number of friends with kids that are 18, 15 and 3, heh.

Yet even as a Protestant, I knew the Church didn’t allow NFP back in High School (mid 80s) because I dated a number of girls who were Catholic (don’t read any sins into that statement, we just actually talked about real things on some of our dates )

However as I said before I know a number of good, very good and devout Catholics, who otherwise aren’t “cafeteria Catholics” who just can’t seem to follow this 1 teaching. Perhaps that is one of the major problems in our Church. I know many of them grew up being taught that the Church would change that teaching at anytime… they are still waiting for that change though.

I would also guess that the reason so many have been steralized is that once they confess that, it’s done. If they keep using ABC then they need to go to confession much more often.

Yes again I know some who know better don’t confess it, but even as a Baptist as a child I was taught to take the verses in Matt seriously when it states that you should not take communion if you aren’t ready lest you drink judgement upon yourself. Maybe the fact that so much of this goes on is one of the roots of our problems…

Joe

 

[mercygate]

LOL!

Truth is though this is a VERY difficult subject. I know that B16 had a task force a year or so ago evaluating the use of condoms in regards to the AIDS epidemic in Africa… yet I never heard what the final concluson was from that.

We are luckly I guess… as converts I spent a lot of time studying the teachings of the Chuch before I ever even called for RCIA. Many of the famlies with young childen in our Parish (we have about 1200-1500 families) do practice NFP or at least try. We have a number of friends with kids that are 18, 15 and 3, heh.

Yet even as a Protestant, I knew the Church didn’t allow NFP back in High School (mid 80s) because I dated a number of girls who were Catholic (don’t read any sins into that statement, we just actually talked about real things on some of our dates )

However as I said before I know a number of good, very good and devout Catholics, who otherwise aren’t “cafeteria Catholics” who just can’t seem to follow this 1 teaching. Perhaps that is one of the major problems in our Church. I know many of them grew up being taught that the Church would change that teaching at anytime… they are still waiting for that change though.

I would also guess that the reason so many have been steralized is that once they confess that, it’s done. If they keep using ABC then they need to go to confession much more often.

Yes again I know some who know better don’t confess it, but even as a Baptist as a child I was taught to take the verses in Matt seriously when it states that you should not take communion if you aren’t ready lest you drink judgement upon yourself. Maybe the fact that so much of this goes on is one of the roots of our problems…

Joe

It’s not “done” just because it’s confessed. You have to MEAN it when you confess it.

 

[newbetx]

There was a post on another thread last week, I think, that said the Canadian Bishops “clarified” their statement and accepted the HV from Rome. So no condemnation would be required… I’ll have to go dig. My memory is not so good, so it may take some time to dig that up.

Here you go…forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3782098&postcount=5

 

[duskyjewel]

It’s not “done” just because it’s confessed. You have to MEAN it when you confess it.

And?

Let me tell you that I am intimately acquainted with the feelings of people who study and learn and know what the Church teaches, want to be obedient, go through the struggles, fear, crying, and pain that come with trying to figure out how to fit this teaching into their own lives, fail, and go to confession. And then do it all again. And again, and again. Then they think, painful as it will be to be THAT disobedient, they can just solve this particular problem for the rest of their lives. That temptation sits on their shoulder, year after year, taunting them, mocking their pain and struggle. When they finally fall, and give in, thinking it will solve the issue once and for all, they realize as soon as they wake up from the anesthesia that they have really solved nothing. They cry with regret, shake in fear of going to Hell, feel sick every time they enter a church… and finally bring themselves to go to confession. But even after they have done that, they still have to deal with the pain and regret.

One thing that irks me no end is how cavalierly NFP promoters think we failures make our decisions. And believe me, we realize we are and feel like failures. Many do it out of ignorance. Many do it because they feel forced by social expectations. Many do it because they wake up in a cold sweat knowing there is not enough money to both pay bills and buy groceries for the kids they already have. If you think these things are not realities in America 2008, you are fooling yourself.

There are some of us who choose to bear the crosses that come with obeying the Church and practicing NFP. And there are some of us who feel we have no choice but to bear the crosses that come with disobeying. And I bet very few are really as sure about any of their choices as they make themselves out to be. If you were transported back five or ten years, can you honestly say you would make all your choices the same? I can’t…

I know some see this as just a matter of discipline and trust in God. Maybe it is that simple. And maybe, just maybe, some of you should admit that it is not.

 

[newbetx]

And?

Let me tell you that I am intimately acquainted with the feelings of people who study and learn and know what the Church teaches, want to be obedient, go through the struggles, fear, crying, and pain that come with trying to figure out how to fit this teaching into their own lives, fail, and go to confession. And then do it all again. And again, and again. Then they think, painful as it will be to be THAT disobedient, they can just solve this particular problem for the rest of their lives. That temptation sits on their shoulder, year after year, taunting them, mocking their pain and struggle. When they finally fall, and give in, thinking it will solve the issue once and for all, they realize as soon as they wake up from the anesthesia that they have really solved nothing. They cry with regret, shake in fear of going to Hell, feel sick every time they enter a church (or have sex)… and finally bring themselves to go to confession. But even after they have done that, they still have to deal with the pain and regret.

One thing that irks me no end is how cavalierly NFP promoters think we failures make our decisions. And believe me, we realize we are and feel like failures. Many do it out of ignorance. Many do it because they feel forced by social expectations. Many do it because they wake up in a cold sweat knowing there is not enough money to both pay bills and buy groceries for the kids they already have. If you think these things are not realities in America 2008, you are fooling yourself.

There are some of us who choose to bear the crosses that come with obeying the Church and practicing NFP. And there are some of us who feel we have no choice but to bear the crosses that come with disobeying. And I bet very few are really as sure about any of their choices as they make themselves out to be. If you were transported back five or ten years, can you honestly say you would make all your choices the same? I can’t…

I know some see this as just a matter of discipline and trust in God. Maybe it is that simple. And maybe, just maybe, some of you should admit that it is not.

Beautiful post! (I hope you don’t mind, I added something in bold)

Fear, misinformation, lack of understanding all contribute to our failings. I understand and agree life is very difficult indeed.

As far as “just going to confession” I can assure you that while God can forgive someone, people that know are not so willing.

 

[duskyjewel]

Know what’s wierd? I understand the teaching, I think I understand the whys of it… I get why the Church does not, and probably CANNOT, change it. At the same time as I can’t live up to it…

I find myself explaining NFP on some threads. I have even defended the teaching at times. Am I being a hypocrite? Or am I doing a sort of penance, helping others understand better, hoping they can synthesize it and do better with it than I did?

 

[HouseArrest]

And?

It sounded to me, and maybe to mercygate, too, that jwashu was saying that people went the sterilization route in a premeditated manner so as to go to confession only once, in a kind of pay one price deal, which she pointed out doesn’t work.

Let me tell you that I am intimately acquainted with the feelings of people who study and learn and know what the Church teaches, want to be obedient, go through the struggles, fear, crying, and pain that come with trying to figure out how to fit this teaching into their own lives, fail, and go to confession. And then do it all again. And again, and again. Then they think, painful as it will be to be THAT disobedient, they can just solve this particular problem for the rest of their lives. That temptation sits on their shoulder, year after year, taunting them, mocking their pain and struggle. When they finally fall, and give in, thinking it will solve the issue once and for all, they realize as soon as they wake up from the anesthesia that they have really solved nothing. They cry with regret, shake in fear of going to Hell, feel sick every time they enter a church… and finally bring themselves to go to confession. But even after they have done that, they still have to deal with the pain and regret.

One thing that irks me no end is how cavalierly NFP promoters think we failures make our decisions. And believe me, we realize we are and feel like failures. Many do it out of ignorance. Many do it because they feel forced by social expectations. Many do it because they wake up in a cold sweat knowing there is not enough money to both pay bills and buy groceries for the kids they already have. If you think these things are not realities in America 2008, you are fooling yourself.

There are some of us who choose to bear the crosses that come with obeying the Church and practicing NFP. And there are some of us who feel we have no choice but to bear the crosses that come with disobeying. And I bet very few are really as sure about any of their choices as they make themselves out to be. If you were transported back five or ten years, can you honestly say you would make all your choices the same? I can’t…

I know some see this as just a matter of discipline and trust in God. Maybe it is that simple. And maybe, just maybe, some of you should admit that it is not.

Sorry it’s so hard for a lot of people. I wonder if practicing NFP (or using nothing…) were more “socially acceptable” or more commonplace it would be easier.

 

[hasikelee]

I don’t see it as having to do with our Catholic religion but rather our religion of Medicine.

The last generations have treated their doctors like Gods. And what does a Doctor push more than anything? Birth control. The moment you begin to menstruate, you better start popping those pills. The Dr. told you to.

I can’t pick out a single girl that I know, excepting a handful of homeschoolers (which at this point I am no longer in contact with so they might be contracepting who knows) who was not put on birth control in her early teen years. I’d guess the average girl uses birth control at her doctor’s express “suggestion” for 7-8 years before finding a man and marrying him.

 

[kind_bean]

And what does a Doctor push more than anything? Birth control. The moment you begin to menstruate, you better start popping those pills. The Dr. told you to.

I agree. Almost all of my friends in high school and college (Catholic and non) were on pills, including my older sister. Many of them would become very sick and their cycle was totally messed up when they first started the pill, or switching to a different types to find ones that wouldn’t make them sick .

Because I wasn’t having sex, I didn’t see a gyn doc until I was 22 (and only then because I discovered a lump in my breast, otherwise who knows when I would have forced myself to go!). She immediately tried to push pills on me because I was in a serious relationship (with my future husband). When I said no, she shook her head and made comments about unwanted pregnancies and said, “Well, I hope you’ll use a condom at least.”

It is a good thing that I didn’t take them, just months later I learned that I have a genetic liver condition that won’t let my body metabolize birth control pills. I eventually switched gynos when I became pregnant with my first children, and on the post birth visit, she was trying to get me to take them! When I told her that I would be practicing NFP, she said, “Well, that is hard to do under normal circumstances and almost impossible while breastfeeding.” When I explained that I thought I would do ok, she made some kind of comment about seeing me in a few months (because I would be pregnant again). :dts:

 

[kind_bean]

I would also guess that the reason so many have been steralized is that once they confess that, it’s done. If they keep using ABC then they need to go to confession much more often.

According to a book on Catholic marriages and sex, there is more that is required for a married Catholic couple in which one or both spouses who have been sterilized:

“Each (sexual) act (taken place after sterilization) objectively contradicts the meaning of the marriage act, for it is a permanent way of saying, “I take you for pleasure but not for the imagined worse of pregnancy.” … Many people have confessed the sin of sterilization and have not been counseled about the need to change their way of life. If truly repentant, they can be forgiven their sin of mutilation, but can a person be forgiven now - today - for future sins of contraceptively sterilized intercourse?..We can stop the continuing effects of our sin by having a change of heart, which is reflected by a change of behavior. God does not require the impossible, but He does require us to do what is possible and necessary for right living. Therefore, if it is possible for me to change my behavior to stop future sins, I must do so.”

His recommendations for the sterilized couple are:

1. Lasting repentance (true sorrow for the act of sterilization and all the subsequent sins of sterilized intercourse).
2. Behavioral options: complete abstinence until the woman is unfertile (although he points out that he doesn’t feel this is necessary), reversal surgery, and/or practicing NFP (as though the sterilization never occurred).

~From the book, Sex and the Marriage Covenant: A Basis For Morality by John F. Kippley copyright 2005

 

[Katie1723]

…, I don’t think this question should be asked… it’s not up to us to question/judge others.

I think it SHOULD be asked.And if people answered truthfully and not just what the “correct Catholic” answer is, you would see a whole lot more admitting to using ABC of one kind or another.

Kathy