How many Catholics are being put off by the new Mass translation?

[TimothyH]

fall fox

For what it’s worth, I’m proud of your response.

It sounds like your Pastor is saying a hodgepodge Mass like they do on EWTN, Part English part Latin. I’m old enough that I knew all the Latin responces of the pre-V II Mass. I would never want to go back to the Latin Mass. I can’t think in Latin so it doesn’t make much sense to me to pray in Latin.

I don’t think the Mass on EWTN is hodgepodge, that is to say, both latin and english in an arbitrary way. It is celebrated by Franciscans and I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that it is a specific form which is supposed to be celebrated that way.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

That’s exactly ProVobis’s point.

Thanks.

Some day when they can’t find an English Mass, they’ll figure it out. :takethat:

 

[ProVobis]

I kept messing up on things like
"And with your spirit … "
… the irony being that I know this phrase quite well
in Latin !!!

This is what I don’t understand. If they understand “Dominus vobiscum/Et cum spiritu tuo,” why does it even need to be translated to some vernacular which people can’t remember, assuming they can understand that particular vernacular at all?

It’s like my godfather used to do to me. I’d say something in English, he would insist that I say it in Polish, even though I knew he understood it in English. Was this some pompousness on his part?

 

[LordHaveMercy]

I LOVE the changes. Not just because of the changes themselves but because of the conversation and debate they inspire…there is SO MUCH attention on the mass right now and the amazing significance of every word spoken during mass. What’s not to love?

 

[JRRTFAN]

I am just curious … based on casual conversations with others … or your own “feelings” on the subject … how many Catholics are being put off by the new Mass translation?

Is it a lot of people or just a few?

Is it just Catholics in their 30’s and 40’s?

How effective or thorough has been your experience in explaining the new translation and how the need for it came about?

[One of my 40-something friends said casually … does the new translation mean that everything he has expressed a belief in all these years seems to have been “invalid”.]

So, I’m just looking for comments by others.

What on planet earth would cause your friend to say that? That is so bizarre it’s almost unthinkable. Would he apply that same theology (sic) to those who participated in the Tridentine Mass before 1971? Was all they professed flawed? What belief did he have 4 weeks ago? That the Son was not consubstantial with the Father? If so, he was a heretic. That God was the creator of all that was visible and invisible. e.g. angels, or just the stuff he knew was in the next room but couldn’t see (seen and unseen) and that there is no invisible world? If so he is a heretic.

Here’s what I think about your friend’s analysis (in the deep Greek): “This stuff is just not like I talk to my buddies at the kid’s soccer game or at work so somebody is trying to put one over on me, I’m not going to read itl I’m not going to study it, I’m not going to try and find the fullness of theological thought in it. Oh, nanny boo boo, somebody moved my cheese! I probably won’t go to Mass anymore because they’re so mean. that’ll fix them!”

Yadayadayada

 

[MartyrForJesus]

What on planet earth would cause your friend to say that? That is so bizarre it’s almost unthinkable. Would he apply that same theology (sic) to those who participated in the Tridentine Mass before 1971? Was all they professed flawed? What belief did he have 4 weeks ago? That the Son was not consubstantial with the Father? If so, he was a heretic. That God was the creator of all that was visible and invisible. e.g. angels, or just the stuff he knew was in the next room but couldn’t see (seen and unseen) and that there is no invisible world? If so he is a heretic.

Here’s what I think about your friend’s analysis (in the deep Greek): “This stuff is just not like I talk to my buddies at the kid’s soccer game or at work so somebody is trying to put one over on me, I’m not going to read itl I’m not going to study it, I’m not going to try and find the fullness of theological thought in it. Oh, nanny boo boo, somebody moved my cheese! I probably won’t go to Mass anymore because they’re so mean. that’ll fix them!”

Yadayadayada

Just so you know, a heretic is one who knowingly rejects certain necessary truths of the Catholic faith, not someone who just “didn’t know” or “wasn’t taught”. Most people know what quality 70s catechises was like anyway.

 

[Corki]

That’s not how the Church works. While there is a tightening of things lately there is no great push for a “mainly in Latin” Mass. Contrary to popular opinion, the Church really does listen to the people and the people overwhelmingly like Mass mainly in the vernacular.

The question increasingly is, “whose vernacular?” Our parish is about 50% Spanish speaking, 45% English speaking and the remainder are a mix of Czech, Vietnamese and Philipino (Tagalog). We have one priest who, fortunately speaks both English and Spanish. He can offer Masses in Spanish or English but when we try to have a special parish Mass, it’s one or the other or an incomprehensible mix of both. The next parish over has roughly the same deomographics but has a Vietnamese priest who speaks no Spanish and limited English. Almost no one hears a vernacular Mass in that parish.

One of the reasons the Church continues to call for everyone to know the unchanging prayers in Latin is so that a mixed parish or one with visitors can still pray together.

 

[Fireguy679]

I’m not being put off at all cuz there were no changes in the mass, I follow the old traditional mass, where’s it’s always been Latin. Don’t have to worry bout translations if you don’t have to translate it from something…If people in their 50’s 60’s and 70’s are concerned about these small changes, where were you for the big changes in the 60’s? When the mass was almost completely replaced…

“If I am wrong now, you were wrong then, If you were right then, I am right now.”

 

[onmyknees]

The question increasingly is, “whose vernacular?” Our parish is about 50% Spanish speaking, 45% English speaking and the remainder are a mix of Czech, Vietnamese and Philipino (Tagalog). We have one priest who, fortunately speaks both English and Spanish. He can offer Masses in Spanish or English but when we try to have a special parish Mass, it’s one or the other or an incomprehensible mix of both. The next parish over has roughly the same deomographics but has a Vietnamese priest who speaks no Spanish and limited English. Almost no one hears a vernacular Mass in that parish.

One of the reasons the Church continues to call for everyone to know the unchanging prayers in Latin is so that a mixed parish or one with visitors can still pray together.

I agree with this. My parish has a huge Spanish mass, there are Chinese, Korean, Japanese,Vietnamese, Filipino, many from the Pacific Islands,Samoans, Tongans, African Americans, American Indians, and everything else.

If everyone could learn Latin it would be so much easier. We have tried the bilingual mass but it is just so crowded that there is not enough room. People are literally standing everywhere in the church and standing outside too.

 

[fall_fox]

I don’t think the Mass on EWTN is hodgepodge, that is to say, both Latin and English in an arbitrary way. It is celebrated by Franciscans and I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that it is a specific form which is supposed to be celebrated that way.
-Tim-

Tim, I was taught by Franciscans in high school, I served mass for them in the chapel, there was nothing different about the Mass they said at that time and I would strongly believe there wouldn’t be a specific form now.

 

[fall_fox]

This is what I don’t understand. If they understand “Dominus vobiscum/Et cum spiritu tuo,” why does it even need to be translated to some vernacular which people can’t remember, assuming they can understand that particular vernacular at all?

It’s like my godfather used to do to me. I’d say something in English, he would insist that I say it in Polish, even though I knew he understood it in English. Was this some pompousness on his part?

It’s not the Dominus vobiscum/et cum spiritu tuo most everyone understands that. There is a treasury of wording that we are hearing at Mass spoken mostly by the Priest that would be lost on most of us if it were in Latin. I certainly hope people are listening, it’s wonderful.
We are coming up only on the third Sunday where people will hear the new translation, of course they should hear it tomorrow also. Given time, they will learn it.

 

[fall_fox]

The question increasingly is, “whose vernacular?” Our parish is about 50% Spanish speaking, 45% English speaking and the remainder are a mix of Czech, Vietnamese and Philipino (Tagalog). We have one priest who, fortunately speaks both English and Spanish. He can offer Masses in Spanish or English but when we try to have a special parish Mass, it’s one or the other or an incomprehensible mix of both. The next parish over has roughly the same deomographics but has a Vietnamese priest who speaks no Spanish and limited English. Almost no one hears a vernacular Mass in that parish.

One of the reasons the Church continues to call for everyone to know the unchanging prayers in Latin is so that a mixed parish or one with visitors can still pray together.

In cases like yours, I believe the Church recommends the Mass to be in Latin.

 

[TarkanAttila]

I don’t so much have a problem with the translation - it makes things clearer, especially to someone who lives and breathes vocabulary. It’s more the music for the liturgy I am having trouble with.

In our parish, we use the “Mass of Saint Cecilia” for our liturgical music. I will put it this way: whoever wrote it ought to apologise to Saint Cecilia (who is the patron saint of music) for making a mockery of her patronage.

Well, perhaps that is an exaggeration. It’s not the worst thing in the world, but it’s just not particularly good, either.

 

[bkovacs]

I love the new translation. But the rest, like EMHC, altar girls, priest facing people. That’s what turns me off.

 

[YoungTradCath]

It’s not the Dominus vobiscum/et cum spiritu tuo most everyone understands that. There is a treasury of wording that we are hearing at Mass spoken mostly by the Priest that would be lost on most of us if it were in Latin. I certainly hope people are listening, it’s wonderful.
We are coming up only on the third Sunday where people will hear the new translation, of course they should hear it tomorrow also. Given time, they will learn it.

Took me a week to learn the Order of Mass, including the Roman Canon, in Latin. Took a bit of effort, but not anything ridic.

 

[LilyM]

Took me a week to learn the Order of Mass, including the Roman Canon, in Latin. Took a bit of effort, but not anything ridic.

Well, different people have far differing levels of aptitude with foreign languages, so it’s not to say everyone could do it so easily.

 

[liturgyluver]

It’s not the Dominus vobiscum/et cum spiritu tuo most everyone understands that. There is a treasury of wording that we are hearing at Mass spoken mostly by the Priest that would be lost on most of us if it were in Latin. I certainly hope people are listening, it’s wonderful.
We are coming up only on the third Sunday where people will hear the new translation, of course they should hear it tomorrow also. Given time, they will learn it.

I agree with you. We have been using the new translation in the UK since September and now it’s pretty much bedded down. Latin masses should certainly be offerred as an option because it is part of our Catholic heritage, but to suggest that all masses should be Latin - as some have done - because not everyone speaks the language of the country they are residing in is quite wrong, and is very patronising to the majority of those people who understand perfectly well.

If all masses were in Latin, it would render the liturgy as unintelligable to most of the congregation whether English speakers or not. In London - one of the most diverse cities in the world - we have an array of Latin masses on offer at the central London churches, - and numbers are much smaller at these masses than the vernacular masses, and are certainly not full of non-English speakers.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Well, different people have far differing levels of aptitude with foreign languages, so it’s not to say everyone could do it so easily.

True, but my main point is that, since it doesn’t change from day to day, if most people put moderate effort into it, they could learn it and probably with not much trouble.

Most people learn more German, for example, in a high school foreign language course in two weeks, where the study is much more in depth than just recognizing the words. I can’t speak Latin, but I understand what is being said when I attend a mass in Latin because it doesn’t change. That’s all I mean.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s not the Dominus vobiscum/et cum spiritu tuo most everyone understands that. There is a treasury of wording that we are hearing at Mass spoken mostly by the Priest that would be lost on most of us if it were in Latin.

But isn’t this more a result of national or cultural pride rather than universal worship? And what do we know about pride again?

Unfortunately the vernacular has had unintentional consequences of dividing us, not only by nationality but also controversy.

Some one noted that saying “Mysterium Fidei” at Mass didn’t seem to phase anyone. So why change it if they understand it that way? Same way if they use Latin in courtrooms or anywhere else.

Look at it this way: if there were no Latin on a US $1 bill, it would be counterfeit. Doesn’t matter if no one understands what the words mean, just know what the bill is.