How many Catholics do you know who are TOTALLY (orthodox) Roman Catholic?

[chaunceygardner]

Am I the only one who’s troubled by the whole premise of this question? By the standards of some on this board, *John Paul II *wouldn’t have qualified as “Totally (orthodox) Roman Catholic” because of the Assisi / Koran incident. The judgmentalism on this thread is amazing. And all these posters know the hearts of their “fellow Catholics” just how???

Exactly. I tried to say something similar earlier, but you present it clearly and concisely. There are obviously different views on what it means to be orthodox. Orthodox according to what standard, or what time period, or which Pope’s pronouncements, or which council’s decisions? And then many parse the words and phrases to get them to fit THEIR own definition of orthodox.

As an innocent bystander in all of this, but also with some connections to the Catholic Church, I am sometimes amazed, sometimes amused, and often discouraged by the posts I see on these forums and the undeserved righteousness that many posters express. Not good PR for the Catholic faith.

What is orthodox? You have to agree on THAT question before you can answer this one.

 

[Shichibukai]

what the h-- is that??

i’ll bet they werent catechized CAhtolics… Those who know about Transubstantiation… doesn’t seem like they would leave the Church…

but then there’s Fr Greely…

Bakuraism is a small religion.
EDIT: One of them is well aware of transubstantiation, because they had to write a goddamn essay on it. And, in their opionion, Bakuraism is the way forward!

 

[Anthony_Joseph]

according to merriam-webster.com/dictionary/, Orthodox is defined as " conforming to established doctrine especially in religion". This means that a person who does not conform to the defined doctrine is not orthodox. This is the most basic level of orthodoxy. You must conform to the established doctrine. Because JPII went to a Mosque doesn’t make him a Muslim or unorthodox Catholic. The context of that visit is the critical factor, which is something that is frequently overlooked by many Catholics and non-catholics. He was there promoting peace and he was not praying to Allah. He was there to pray that peace would reign in the world and that the Muslims would be converted to Christianity. He was not there to say his prayers towards Mecca. It was not a religious move it was a political one. The Pontiff is in a very special position, he is not only a religious leader he is a political one. He must be a spokesman for 1,000,000,000 people world wide. While not all may approve of that specific incident, myself included, he was there to promote peace.

 

[moon1234]

As you can see from my screen name I’ve spent many years in catechesis. I’d say that the problem in not so much that Catholics don’t “buy” what the Church teaches, but rather they don’t “know” what she teaches.

At the last judgement, I’m afraid we catechists will have to answer for all the people God sent to us hungry for the Word of life to whom we gave secular candy. That Word is so simple the poorest and most lowly can get it but so beautiful and deep that the wisest can contemplate it and never plumb its furtherest reaches.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem …

Beginning at birth, and throughout life, you tell them stories.

From 6 to 12 you take advantage of their God-given ability to memorize and and they learn by heart scripture, prayers, lists (ten commandments, gifts of the H. S. et cetera), simple declarative statements such as, “God made me to know him, love him, and serve him in this world, and to be happy with him forever in the next. A sacrament is an outward sign …” and so on.

At 12 years, when the gift of abstract thinking dawns, you unpack the treasures they have stored in their memories and look at what they mean in an age appropriate way (That would be different for a kid who is 12 and one who is 17). This is when you start talking about WHY? HOW? This is when the facts lodged in their sharp little brains take root in their hearts.

It’s my observation, we threw the Child Jesus out with the bathwater sometime in the woo woo 70’s. Whatever the faults of the Catholic Church in America before 1970, we knew our faith better then.

I doubt you will have to answer as you are not the one who is Primarliy responsible for teaching the faith. That falls on the parish Priest and his Ordinary. All people are called to spread the faith, but any culpability we have is mitigated by the teaching we should be getting from our Parish priest. The parish priest is the one truely called to teach the faith.

When was the last time you saw an actual priest teaching the faith outside of Mass?

 

[distracted]

**the problem in not so much that Catholics don’t “buy” what the Church teaches, but rather they don’t “know” what she teaches.

At the last judgement, I’m afraid we catechists will have to answer for all the people God sent to us hungry for the Word of life to whom we gave secular candy. That Word is so simple the poorest and most lowly can get it but so beautiful and deep that the wisest can contemplate it and never plumb its furtherest reaches.**
.

:clapping::clapping:

 

[distracted]

I doubt you will have to answer as you are not the one who is Primarliy responsible for teaching the faith. That falls on the parish Priest and his Ordinary. All people are called to spread the faith, but any culpability we have is mitigated by the teaching we should be getting from our Parish priest. The parish priest is the one truely called to teach the faith.

When was the last time you saw an actual priest teaching the faith outside of Mass?

or even inside of Mass???

i’ve heard priests say that it is the parents’ job to catechize… NOT theirs

Sure - if they themselves (parents) know the faith… but many do not… MOST do not, in my opinion.

i think priests who say such things just want to get out of the responsibility…

there are So many priests these days who just seem to … well, frankly, they seem to just want all the bennies of being a priest… without all the hardships… a sign of the times, to be sure… but … as one poster said, they will be held accountable, far more so than parents & others who don’t even know a fraction of what they do…

i wasn’t catechized… and my life became a disaster… listened to someone spout off about OnceSavedAlwaysSaved, was so clue-less i believed it!!! And now i have massive crosses to deal with as a result… and so do others whom my life has impacted…

 

[chaunceygardner]

according to merriam-webster.com/dictionary/, Orthodox is defined as " conforming to established doctrine especially in religion". This means that a person who does not conform to the defined doctrine is not orthodox. This is the most basic level of orthodoxy. You must conform to the established doctrine. Because JPII went to a Mosque doesn’t make him a Muslim or unorthodox Catholic. The context of that visit is the critical factor, which is something that is frequently overlooked by many Catholics and non-catholics. He was there promoting peace and he was not praying to Allah. He was there to pray that peace would reign in the world and that the Muslims would be converted to Christianity. He was not there to say his prayers towards Mecca. It was not a religious move it was a political one. The Pontiff is in a very special position, he is not only a religious leader he is a political one. He must be a spokesman for 1,000,000,000 people world wide. While not all may approve of that specific incident, myself included, he was there to promote peace.

Well said, and thanks for the definition. Now if we could only agree on which “established doctrine” is orthodox. My earlier point was that there are factions within Catholicism who have different points of view, or perhaps a different emphasis, on what they consider orthodox. Doctrines have changed, or perhaps refined is a better term. There are some who want the Church to follow the doctrines exactly as stated 80 years ago, or 800 years ago, and think that those are “orthodox”. There are others who accept the doctrines proclaimed and as taught by the church today as “orthodox”. There are differences, which have resulted in those who strongly support the current and other recent Popes vs. those who place their allegiance on earlier Popes (Pius X, perhaps?).

Could those different points of view escalate to full schism? It has happened before, many times.

I also want to thank JoanREdirector for her thoughts and commend her for her dedication to teaching the faith. I agree with her points about the current state of Religioius Ed in our parishes. But I bet that her parish has a very good RE program.

 

[distracted]

Seeing that being a Catholic does not mean that one is a Roman Catholic (that is a member of the Latin Catholic Church) that means that orthodoxy does not reside alone in the Latin Catholic Church.

This question is flawed. A Byzantine Catholic (that is a Catholic who is a member of one of the many Catholic Churches that are of the Byzantine Rite) can be orthodox while not being a Latin (or Roman) Catholic.

The Latin Catholic Church is in no way superior to any of the other 22 Churches that make up the universal Catholic Church.

Also even within the Latin Catholic Church there are many issues that are not a matter of dogma that faithful Catholics may hold differing opinions on, but as evidence from this forum, many people judge others to be less “orthodox” when they hold to views on these matters that are different from the ones they hold.

Churches not accepting the pope or his infallibility are not one with the True Church Christ established…

 

[distracted]

In my experience, (I know, a young person beginning a statement with the phrase, “in my experience”… don’t let panic set in, fear not, I have valid point) there are truly orthodox Catholics. While these may be few and far between, they do tend to congregate and collect in certain areas. Hillsdale Mi. is one of those places. The Catholic population of my Alma mater (which ironically was founded by Free Will Baptists) is about 40% and of them about 80% are very orthodox Catholics and the number is growing every year. We have the problem there of going over the top in terms of doctrinal interpretation and orthodoxy. The Latin Mass community there has made statements against the Novus Ordo Mass. But fortunately they are in the minority. The key to being an Orthodox Catholic is to realize that the Pontiff and the Magisterium are empowered by the Holy Spirit to guide the Church through time of trouble and times of tranquility. The good Catholic needs to submit to the teachings of the Magisterium and the Pontiff because Christ left them as our teachers and the protectors of the faith. Complete obedience to the official doctrinal and dogmatic teachings of the Church defines the truly and completely orthodox Catholic.

i was going to say you had “my nihil obstat” on this but then you said this:

Disagreements can be made on issues of lesser importance. Not to say that any issues dealing with faith and morals are not important, but some issues can be compromised on or can be ignored even disobeyed. But not the official doctrinal and dogmatic teaching of the Magisterium or the Roman Pontiff. The death penalty, war, welfare, health care, and even some forms of prayer can be ignored. But issues of grave morality or the interpretation of the faith can not be disobeyed. :bible1:

I’m not sure Pope B would agree with this … (?)

the death penalty involves morality… as does war.

a just war is one thing, as i am sure you know…

(Abortion is an unjust war on the unborn… and we don’t seem to be doing much to really win that war… it’s kind of like Viet Nam… No, very much like Viet N… we could have won but we didnt treat it like a war)

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I doubt you will have to answer as you are not the one who is Primarliy responsible for teaching the faith. That falls on the parish Priest and his Ordinary. All people are called to spread the faith, but any culpability we have is mitigated by the teaching we should be getting from our Parish priest. The parish priest is the one truely called to teach the faith.

When was the last time you saw an actual priest teaching the faith outside of Mass?

Actually the persons that are “Primarily” responsibe for the teaching of the Faith is a childs parent.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Churches not accepting the pope or his infallibility are not one with the True Church Christ established…

The Byzantine Catholic Churches do accept the pope and are in communion with him. They are just as Catholic as the Latin Catholic Church but they are not Roman.

 

[JoanREDirector]

“the problem in not so much that Catholics don’t “buy” what the Church teaches, but rather they don’t “know” what she teaches.”

Thanks for the thoughtful reading of my last post and your kind words. Our parish does have a good RE program. I know because, when I retired, faithful staff and volunteers carried it on and have made it even better. Oldsters with the knowledge and memories have come out of the shadows and young parents full of fire won’t settle for less.

The ones I pity are the ones (some still in positions of authority) who drank the 70’s koolaid. Some were sincerely trying to do what was best. They invested their lives trying to make this “new vision” a happy reality. How sad to have to admit their life’s work was a failure.

 

[moon1234]

Actually the persons that are “Primarily” responsibe for the teaching of the Faith is a childs parent.

Correct, but in the context the poster was referring to, adult cathecesis, that area would primarily fall on the parish Priest. A parent can still teach an adult child, but formation of the parent needs to come from the local Parish priest. An RCIA instructor would not be considered primarly or even secondarily responsible for cathecising adults.

It would be nice to see clergy running the RCIA programs. There is nothing like learning the faith from a priest. My wife is a convert and she received personal instruction from a parish priest. She learned more from him than any of her friends who went thru RCIA. She was able to ask questions and get immediate feedback with both answers and church history of why we belive this or that.

 

[distracted]

The Byzantine Catholic Churches do accept the pope and are in communion with him. They are just as Catholic as the Latin Catholic Church but they are not Roman.

why not?

what is it about Rome they don’t like??

 

[distracted]

"

The ones I pity are the ones (some still in positions of authority) who drank the 70’s koolaid. Some were sincerely trying to do what was best. They invested their lives trying to make this “new vision” a happy reality. How sad to have to admit their life’s work was a failure.

not sure i u/stand this last comment?

 

[distracted]

Am I the only one who’s troubled by the whole premise of this question? … The judgmentalism on this thread is amazing. And all these posters know the hearts of their “fellow Catholics” just how???

Am I the only one who’s troubled by… The judgmentalism on this thread… amazing. And all these posters know the hearts of their “fellow Catholics” just how???

 

[distracted]

As an innocent bystander in all of this, but also with some connections to the Catholic Church, I am sometimes amazed, sometimes amused, and often discouraged by the posts I see on these forums and the undeserved righteousness that many posters express. Not good PR for the Catholic faith.

What is orthodox? You have to agree on THAT question before you can answer this one.

so you’re “innocent”??? hmm… and the rest of us are…?

not innocent?? a bunch of hypicritical (fill in the blanks)???

you are ***sometimes amazed, sometimes amused, and often discouraged by the posts I see on these forums ***

because you don’t know people’s hearts

also because, Surprise, Surprise, you are not God…

and also, maybe because you should keep your amazement, etc… confined to what you see in the mirror…

in other words:

when you point a finger at someone, there are 3 pointing back at yourself…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

why not?

what is it about Rome they don’t like??

There is nothing about Rome that they do not like. They are in Communion with Rome but they are not of the Latin (or Roman) Catholic Church.

They are Churches in their own right. They sui juris Churches. They have their own dioceses (called eparchies for the most part which is just the greek word for diocese) with their own bishops.

They are not Roman, their traditions and even the form of the Eucharistic Liturgy is different. So would would be incorrect to call me, a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic a Roman Catholic. While I am a member of the universal Catholic Church I am so through the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church.

While I live in Tucson, AZ, the bishop I would follow is not the Roman Catholic Bishop of Tucson, but the Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Bishop of Van Nuys whose territory I live in. Even though I am a member of a Roman religious order, I am still a Byzantine Catholic.

I know it is confusing but it is important to get all this correct rather than thinking that the Roman Church is the Catholic Church, it is just one of (though it is the largest) the 22 separate Churches that are in Communion with each other that make up the universal Catholic Church.

 

[anode]

The birth rate among Catholics in countries where contraceptives are freely available doesn’t significantly differ from Protestants. In Italy, a Catholic country, the Catholic birth rate is slightly lower than the Protestant rate. This suggests to me that Catholics are either using contraception, are largely abstinent or have become awfully good at using NFP.

My suspicion is that the 10% is too high.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The birth rate among Catholics in countries where contraceptives are freely available doesn’t significantly differ from Protestants. In Italy, a Catholic country, the Catholic birth rate is slightly lower than the Protestant rate. This suggests to me that Catholics are either using contraception, are largely abstinent or have become awfully good at using NFP.

My suspicion is that the 10% is too high.

While this is true there is no way that you can extend this to any individual Catholics.