Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
And the Spanish Inquisition was directed to JEWS who adopted Christianity.
Dr. Salo Wittmayer Baron:
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M
Matariel
Guest
Well, there were plenty of Protestants and Anglicans doing slaughtering also, and besides, the Spanish Inquisition had the most humane ways of dealing with people than any other judicial structure of that time period. Get your facts straight please.The last (most infamous) time when Catholics tried to impose their religion onto others, it ended up being called by history “The Spanish Inquisition”. I’d think Catholics would not want to go that route again, considering that the church still has trouble living it down.
S
Sepharad
Guest
And WHY did some of them adopt Christianity when they did not really want to?And the Spanish Inquisition was directed to JEWS who adopted Christianity.
Because they were PRESSURED into doing so (and I’m being nice when I use the term “pressured”). The church and the Catholic rulers used the same basic tactics that Muslims used in Muslim countries…they made life so miserable for Jews (special taxes to support the church, rules on what they could wear, do, etc) in the hopes it would make them become Catholic just so life would be easier. Also, in the Middle Ages, the workingman’s guilds were open only to Catholics, which effectively put Jews out of mostly all professions except moneylending, which Catholics were forbidden to engage in due to it being usury.
While doing your encyclopedia research, try looking up the “Disputation of Tortosa”, among other infamous disputations. Read also about the forced conversionary sermons Jews were compelled to sit through.
Here is one bit of info on the most infamous of the disputations, at Tortosa: myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Medieval/IntergroupTO/PopesandCouncils/Diputations.htm
A
Aydan
Guest
Since Sepharad either can’t or won’t provide me with a reliable Biblical source for her assertion that the Nazis to the idea for having Jews wear stars from the Bible can anyone tell me where this cloth patches passage is in the Bible? I want to see what it says for myself.
What do you think of the many requirements for Jews to wear cloth patches so people could single them out?
can you please provide a reliable biblical source for the statement?
Where do you think the Nazis got their idea from, to do the same?
S
Sepharad
Guest
Your question totally confused me, which was why I did not respond.Since Sepharad either can’t or won’t provide me with a reliable Biblical source for her assertion that the Nazis to the idea for having Jews wear stars from the Bible can anyone tell me where this cloth patches passage is in the Bible? I want to see what it says for myself.
The Nazis got their idea for making Jews wear a cloth patch to single them out, NOT from the Bible, but from the practice of various Popes and Catholic rulers in the Middle Ages, who had first done this. Where the Catholics first got the idea for it, I don’t know.
How the idea entered that anyone got it “from the Bible” is beyond me!
M
Matariel
Guest
No, these Jews converted to Catholicism because of the advantages of being Catholic in a Catholic country. However, by the time the inquisition started, their descendants were truly believing Jewish Catholics, whom people wrongly thought were disingenuious.And WHY did some of them adopt Christianity when they did not really want to?
Because they were PRESSURED into doing so (and I’m being nice when I use the term “pressured”). The church and the Catholic rulers used the same basic tactics that Muslims used in Muslim countries…they made life so miserable for Jews (special taxes to support the church, rules on what they could wear, do, etc) in the hopes it would make them become Catholic just so life would be easier. Also, in the Middle Ages, the workingman’s guilds were open only to Catholics, which effectively put Jews out of mostly all professions except moneylending, which Catholics were forbidden to engage in due to it being usury.
While doing your encyclopedia research, try looking up the “Disputation of Tortosa”, among other infamous disputations. Read also about the forced conversionary sermons Jews were compelled to sit through.
Here is one bit of info on the most infamous of the disputations, at Tortosa: myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Medieval/IntergroupTO/PopesandCouncils/Diputations.htm
A
Aydan
Guest
in that case if you’re saying it came from the Pope then provide me with either a religious directive from the Pope or show me where it is in the catechism then Again I ask youwhat evidence do you have to back up that this came from the church itself?
QUOTE=Sepharad;3928866]
Your question totally confused me, which was why I did not respond.
The Nazis got their idea for making Jews wear a cloth patch to signle them out, NOT from the Bible, but from the practice of various Popes and Catholic rulers in the Middle Ages, who had first done this. Where the Catholics first got the idea for it, I don’t know.
How the idea entered that anyone got it “from the Bible” is beyond me!
QUOTE=Sepharad;3928866]
Your question totally confused me, which was why I did not respond.
The Nazis got their idea for making Jews wear a cloth patch to signle them out, NOT from the Bible, but from the practice of various Popes and Catholic rulers in the Middle Ages, who had first done this. Where the Catholics first got the idea for it, I don’t know.
How the idea entered that anyone got it “from the Bible” is beyond me!
S
Sepharad
Guest
Your question totally confused me, which was why I did not respond.in that case if you’re saying it came from the Pope then provide me with either a religious directive from the Pope or show me where it is in the catechism then Again I ask youwhat evidence do you have to back up that this came from the church itself?
QUOTE=Sepharad;3928866]
The Nazis got their idea for making Jews wear a cloth patch to signle them out, NOT from the Bible, but from the practice of various Popes and Catholic rulers in the Middle Ages, who had first done this. Where the Catholics first got the idea for it, I don’t know.
How the idea entered that anyone got it “from the Bible” is beyond me!
Go back, in this thread, and you will see that I gave the Pope, church council and dates when these things happened.
Beyond that, I’m sure you can look them up to find out more, since it is a matter of historical record.
S
Sepharad
Guest
I realize that is the Catholic “spin” on it, but historians say otherwise. The link I provided is from an article by a professor of Jewish history.No, these Jews converted to Catholicism because of the advantages of being Catholic in a Catholic country. However, by the time the inquisition started, their descendants were truly believing Jewish Catholics, whom people wrongly thought were disingenuious.
This one might be another good place to start: ctu.edu/News_and_Events/News_at_CTU/Christian_Persecution_of_Jews
M
Matariel
Guest
Well, I’ve looked at all sides of it, but I doubt the Catholic side is spinning it. After all, a lot of the inquisitors were Roman Catholic Jews. At any rate, I have to admit that this has been one of the lighter areas of my studies of the Church, so I’m sure I do not know as much as a lot of people probably do here.I realize that is the Catholic “spin” on it, but historians say otherwise. The link I provided is from an article by a professor of Jewish history.
Seems like this topic comes up ever so often.
S
Sepharad
Guest
It is true that some of the most ferocious were former Jews…they were what is called in Judaism, “selfhating Jews”, and it is a strange phenomenon that sometimes happens to Jews who dislike being Jewish due to the persecution we so often suffer. Many Jews can handle it, others can’t and so act out, opt out, convert out, etc and turn on their former co-religionists with a zeal often not seen even among nonJews. Its as if they choose to blame their fellow Jews for the persecution Jews so often have to endure, instead of recognizing what Judaism has always taught…that we are here to bear the sins of humanity as the “suffering servant” spoken of by the prophets (Isaiah 53), because we represent the face of God (whether we like it or not) to a Godless world that hates the idea of a Higher Authority that we all must answer to, sooner or later, and that has established a set of laws for humanity to adhere to. As the people chosen by God, we, willingly or unwillingly, stand for that God and His Law, in the eyes of the world. This is why, whenever antisemites attacked and persecuted us, they always targeted our religion first—whether it was the medieval Catholic church, or the Nazis. They always seemed to delight in targeting our religion, perhaps because they recognized what that represented. It represents the Law given at Sinai, by the One True God.Well, I’ve looked at all sides of it, but I doubt the Catholic side is spinning it. After all, a lot of the inquisitors were Roman Catholic Jews. At any rate, I have to admit that this has been one of the lighter areas of my studies of the Church, so I’m sure I do not know as much as a lot of people probably do here.
Seems like this topic comes up ever so often.
I’ve noticed this phenomenon among many former Catholics, too however. The late John Cardinal O’Connor once said to me, when I expressed my dismay at this phenomenon on the parts of both former Jews and former Catholics, “Only true religions produce true apostates”.
Q
qui_est_ce
Guest
This thread has gone seriously off topic. Please discuss the Spanish Inquisition here.I realize that is the Catholic “spin” on it, but historians say otherwise. The link I provided is from an article by a professor of Jewish history.
This one might be another good place to start: ctu.edu/News_and_Events/News_at_CTU/Christian_Persecution_of_Jews
Have we provided enough evidence yet that your OP is NOT what most Catholics think?
S
Sepharad
Guest
For those who asked: Here is one site I found that details much of what was done to the Jews during the Middle Ages. The site is neither Catholic or Jewish, but promotes religious tolerance.
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
One dilemma I have in finding online resources to establish the historical facts I am discussing, is this: if I use a Jewish site, some will say it is biased. If I use a site that is neutral, some will say it is not truly neutral, because “they hate Catholics” (I’ve had some even claim that about Encyclopedia Brittanica!) And its hard to find Catholic sites that will own up to this, for obvius reasons.
I was PMed by someone who did find this info and more on a Traditionalist Catholic site, but I don’t know if I can link to them due to the rules of this forum. However, that site listed much of what the Popes did to the Jews, and in fact, they listed it because they agreed with it, and were proud of it!
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
One dilemma I have in finding online resources to establish the historical facts I am discussing, is this: if I use a Jewish site, some will say it is biased. If I use a site that is neutral, some will say it is not truly neutral, because “they hate Catholics” (I’ve had some even claim that about Encyclopedia Brittanica!) And its hard to find Catholic sites that will own up to this, for obvius reasons.
I was PMed by someone who did find this info and more on a Traditionalist Catholic site, but I don’t know if I can link to them due to the rules of this forum. However, that site listed much of what the Popes did to the Jews, and in fact, they listed it because they agreed with it, and were proud of it!
L
Lapell
Guest
Not all of them. Schoeman claims he was raised a Conservative Jew!I’ve seen Marty Barrack’s website, as I have the other Jewish apostates. Most of them knew next to nothing about Judaism before they converted out, often even by their own admission.
On Barrack’s site, he claims to have grown up “Orthodox” (don’t they all?), yet he didn’t know Mashiach from mashgiach!
M
Matariel
Guest
I totally agree with you about Jews and Catholics, once apostacized, often become self-hating. And I think you’re right; only true religions produce true apostates.For those who asked: Here is one site I found that details much of what was done to the Jews during the Middle Ages. The site is neither Catholic or Jewish, but promotes religious tolerance.
religioustolerance.org/jud_pers3.htm
One dilemma I have in finding online resources to establish the historical facts I am discussing, is this: if I use a Jewish site, some will say it is biased. If I use a site that is neutral, some will say it is not truly neutral, because “they hate Catholics” (I’ve had some even claim that about Encyclopedia Brittanica!) And its hard to find Catholic sites that will own up to this, for obvius reasons.
I was PMed by someone who did find this info and more on a Traditionalist Catholic site, but I don’t know if I can link to them due to the rules of this forum. However, that site listed much of what the Popes did to the Jews, and in fact, they listed it because they agreed with it, and were proud of it!
Jews and Catholics, although different, are similar in some ways.
However, I do think that the Suffering Servant applies to Christ, who becomes both Priest and Victim in the offering up of Himself on the Cross.
It’s interesting, that, in the OT, the word “messiah”, or “annointed one” refers first to priests in the OT, then later, to kings.
This is what we think of Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah; He came first as Priest, but at the end of time He shall come as King.
L
Lapell
Guest
Sepharad, did you receive this list all-made, or did you make it yourself from various sources? Quite impressive.Do you say none of this is historically true?
The history of your church and its members against the Jews is very, very long, and to deny it is disgraceful.
Do you claim none of this ever happened?
c. 240 Origen of Alexandria writes that the Jews “have committed the most abominable of crimes” in conspiring against Christ, and for that reason “the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election”
248 St. Cyprian writes that the Jews have fallen under the heavy wrath of God, because they have departed from the Lord, and have followed idols
306 The Council of Elvira decrees that Christians and Jews cannot intermarry, have sexual intercourse, or eat together
325 Conversation and fellowship with Jews is forbidden to the clergy by the Council of Nicaea
4th century Christian emperors of Rome decree that Christians converting to Judaism, and Jews obstructing the conversion of other Jews to Christianity, will incur the death penalty; Jews can not marry Christians, or hold public office, or own slaves
c. 380 St. Gregory of Nyssa refers to the Jews as “murderers of the Lord, assassins of the prophets, rebels and detesters of God,… companions of the devil, race of vipers, informers, calumniators, darkeners of the mind, pharisaic leaven, Sanhedrin of demons, accursed, detested,… enemies of all that is beautiful”
c. 380 St. Ambrose calls the synagogue “a place of unbelief, a home of impiety, a refuge of insanity, damned by God Himself”
388 A mob of Christians, at the instigation of their bishop, looted and burned the synagogue in Callinicum, a town on the Euphrates. The Emperor Theodosius wants those responsible punished and the synagogue rebuilt at the expense of the bishop, but St. Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, pressures him to relent and condone the action
400 St. Augustine writes: “the Church admits and avows the Jewish people to be cursed, because after killing Christ they continue to till the ground of an earthly circumcision, an earthly Sabbath, an earthly passover, while the hidden strength or virtue of making known Christ, which this tilling contains, is not yielded to the Jews while they continue in impiety and unbelief, for it is revealed in the New Testament. While they will not turn to God, the veil which is on their minds in reading the Old Testament is not taken away… the Jewish people, like Cain, continue tilling the ground, in the carnal observance of the law, which does not yield to them its strength, because they do not perceive in it the grace of Christ”
c. 400 Calling the synagogue “brothel and theater” and “a cave of pirates and the lair of wild beasts,” St. John Chrysostom writes that “the Jews behave no better than hogs and goats in their lewd grossness and the excesses of their gluttony”
413 A group of monks sweep through Palestine, destroying synagogues and massacring Jews at the Western Wall
414 St. Cyril of Alexandria expels Jews from his city
425 Jews are required by law to observe Christian feasts and fasts and to listen to sermons designed to persuade them to convert
442 The synagogue in Constantinople is turned into a church
529-553 The Code of the emperor Justinian decrees that in Christian Byzantine society Jews cannot read their sacred books in Hebrew in their synagogues, and the Mishnah and other rabbinic interpretations are banned
538 The Third Synod of Orléans decrees that Jews cannot show themselves in the streets during Passover Week
591 Pope St. Gregory the Great decrees that Jews are not to be forced into baptism “lest they return to their former superstition and die the worse for having been born again”
600 Pope St. Gregory the Great decrees that Jews should not have excessive freedom, but also “in no way should they suffer a violation of their rights”
681 The Synod of Toledo orders the burning of the Talmud and other books
768 Pope Stephen IV decries ownership of hereditary estates by “the Jewish people, ever rebellious against God and derogatory of our rites” (…) (…) (…)
As for saint John Chrysostom’s homilies “against the Jews”, is there a website where I could read them (or some of them) for myself?
S
Sepharad
Guest
I didn’t type all of those in; I got them from an online historical resource. But I already knew of them from my offline research…its often hard to find any one site that lists everything.Sepharad, did you receive this list all-made, or did you make it yourself from various sources? Quite impressive.
As for saint John Chrysostom’s homilies “against the Jews”, is there a website where I could read them (or some of them) for myself?
As for John Chrysostom’s Homilies, this is a Catholic unuversity site (Fordham Univ) which lists them:
fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html
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estesbob
Guest
It was cut n pasted(without attribution) from this website. Since there is no source given for any of the allegations they should be taken with much skepticism. It, for instance, blames the catholic Church for the Holocaust.Sepharad, did you receive this list all-made, or did you make it yourself from various sources? Quite impressive.
As for saint John Chrysostom’s homilies “against the Jews”, is there a website where I could read them (or some of them) for myself?
Thats is not to say that the members of and leaders of the Church have not been anti-semetic over the centuries- obviously they were.
S
Sepharad
Guest
Here are two sites that were PMed to me by a lurker in this thread. The info is accurate and they appear to be from Roman Catholic websites, albeit Traditional ones:It was cut n pasted(without attribution) from this website. Since there is no source given for any of the allegations they should be taken with much skepticism.
Thats is not to say that the members of and leaders of the Church have not been anti-semetic over the centuries- obviously they were.
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/holysee.htm
romancatholicism.org/popes-jews.htm#_That_the_Jews_2
E
estesbob
Guest
They do not agree with the list you originally posted.Here are two sites that were PMed to me by a lurker in this thread. The info is accurate and they appear to be from Roman Catholic websites, albeit Traditional ones:
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/judaism/holysee.htm
romancatholicism.org/popes-jews.htm#_That_the_Jews_2
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