How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

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Hi, Larkin31,

This is really a pretty sad response…I really did expect better from you! :o
larkin31 said:
So, your argument after all this discussion of scripture is, simply, “God can do anything”?

And, your response has been, “Oh, no - God can’t do that!”

It is not an argument over what God CAN do, but over what the scripture describes.

Actually, Larkin, it is a discussion on what Jesus Christ did do. He said in John 6 that you must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood - and being the most knowledgeable Jew ever - He knew exactly what such a statement meant to His immediate listeners. He also knew what it would do to those 16th Century listeners and their followers who broke away from the Church founded by Christ and has been guided with infallable teaching since that First Pentecost. But, you know what… He still said those clearly spoken words in John 6.

Then you have the three Gospel narratives of the Last Supper - and all say “THIS IS MY BODY” - none of them even hints at a symbol for His body. Then you have that private revelation to St. Paul about the Eucharist that appears in 1Corinthians - it is all there if you are willing to believe the Scriptures. It does not take any dancing around the issue - just read the words…as you open your heart to the the Holy Spirit.

Ultimately, Faith is a Gift of God. But, there is nothing so touching as the Doubting Thomas actually having his doubts resolved in front of the Risen Christ. Our Lord is willing to work with everyone… after all… He died for each of us.

God bless
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tqualey said:
Hi, Larkin31,

This is really a pretty sad response…I really did expect better from you! :o
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Why is my response “sad”?

Everything you refer to in the scriptures has already been discussed here. 🤷 I don’t even think that there is a god, so I sure don’t think that transubstantiation occurs. And it was never taught in my church, even though all the same scripture passages were read during Communion.
 
Nicea325 said:
Wow! And Christ is not capable of giving his body and blood under outward appearances? Explain to me Rev how God is not capable of such a possibility? This was in response to “and God said let there be light, so it was.” I see what you are doing and you won’t get me caught up in this trap.

Apparently you do not grasp transubstantiation. I cannot believe how much you have been bought by such novel beliefs. I have a grasp of transubstantiation, but I believe it was meant as a symbol of his body and blood. I see no evidence to say different.

Christ’s own words at the Last Supper. He did not say, “This bread is my body,” but simply, “This is my body.” Those words indicated a complete change of the entire substance of bread into the entire substance of Christ. The word “this” indicated the whole of what Christ held in his hand. His words were so phrased as to indicate that the subject of the sentence, “this,” and the predicate, “my body,” are identical.
This is my body the bread is a symbol of his body and I have not seen any evidence to state otherwise. If I take a some clay and form it into a human shape hold it up and say this is my body, is it my real body or a symbol of my body? A symbol of course, Just like Jesus held up the bread and said this is my body, it was a symbol.

As soon as the sentence was complete, the substance of the bread was no longer present. Christ’s body was present under the outward appearances of bread. The words of institution at the Last Supper were at the same time the words of transubstantiation. If Christ had wished the bread to be a kind of sacramental receptacle of his body, he would surely have used other words, for example, “This bread is my body” or “This contains my body.”
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What evidence do you have of this?
 
^^^

John 6

how can we follow Christ telling us that only those who eat His flesh and drink His blood will have life, if there’s no way to eat His flesh and drink His blood? He provided that during the last supper through transubstantation
 
Hi, Rev Kevin,

“Trap”? What “trap”?

It appears to me that you are alrady in a box. Merely saying, “I don’t see it…” and “What evidence is there…” is hardly an argument against belief. We are not talking about an algebra equation that can be proven - even to the last member in the algebra class… 😉 We are talking about an article of FAITH. Our Faith is on the words of Christ - since you only want what is in the Bible (as opposed to the full Deposit of Faith that also includes Apostolic Tradation) you will be forced to go and climb this wall at this with only one hand. But, that is your choice. What should be noted is that you have been given at least five different scripture sections clearly identifying that Christ gave us His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity that are hidden under the appearances of Bread and Wine.

The burden is on you, Rev. You do realize that the Church of Christ came into existence on that First Pentecost Sunday - and your church was 16 centuries behind this. All of the official teaching of the Church of Christ - and, that would be the Catholic Church - clearly identifies that Christ is present at the Consecration. Sixteen humdred years later - someone decides that this is just a symbol? And, they try to use the Bible - whose Canon was established by the Catholic Church to prove this? Does this make any sense to you? 🤷

But, again, the issue is one of Faith - and St. Augustine may have said it best (Early Church Father who firmly believed in Christ being physically present in the Eucharist) when prayed for more Faith so he could understand - not more understanding so he could have faith.

Now, really, if you do not have Faith here, you just do not have Faith. But, there is nothing stopping you from asking for more Faith. In fact, I think there are several posters out there who will be joining me in praying that you do get that needed increase in Faith.

Oh, and that “Trap” you worried about … I think it is the Loving Arms of Our Savior. He really is in the Eucharist… that is why it is called the Real Presence. You know, He was once asked how much He loved us … and He stretched out His Arms … and was then nailed to the Cross.

God bless
rev_kevin said:
What evidence do you have of this?
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Hi, Choy,

👍

God bless
choy said:
^^^

John 6

how can we follow Christ telling us that only those who eat His flesh and drink His blood will have life, if there’s no way to eat His flesh and drink His blood? He provided that during the last supper through transubstantation
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Hi, Larkin31,

You may just be on the wrong thread. There are numerous posts out there discussing the existence of God (and that would be with a capital “G” if you please).

While it may seem perfectly logical to see all of these patterns in nature (human life, animal life, insect life, mineral development, the depths of the ocean and the cosmos - in fact - EVERYTHING) came about without a Pattern Maker - it would more sense to throw a bunch of watch parts up against the wall and expect a perfectly ticking watch to fall back!

There is, of course the idea that if you say you do not believe long enough - when you draw your last breath - you will be conditioned to exhale with non-belief. But, you know, it never seems to work out that way (at least for those with at least average sanity). The story in Luke about the Rich Man who died and was buried and the poor man, Lazarus, who died and went to Abraham’s bosom…is an interesting story. Now, it may be that there really isn’t a God (:eek:) and all of this that we see just came about! But, you know… how can you be sure?

If there is a God and you spent your life denying Him and His Word, well it would be devestating to find out you were wrong! :eek: There is at lest a 2:1 shot that there is a God - and, if you take the bet and are wrong … well… obviously, no big deal - and you got to do a lot of helpful things for other people. Ah, but if there is a God… and you believe what He has said and follow the commands of Chrsit - well, you will be rewarded. This really does beat the hell out of the other approach, wouldn’t you say?

Sorry to have gotten off the thread… I will now return… 😃

God bless
larkin31 said:
Why is my response “sad”?

Everything you refer to in the scriptures has already been discussed here. 🤷 I don’t even think that there is a god, so I sure don’t think that transubstantiation occurs. And it was never taught in my church, even though all the same scripture passages were read during Communion.
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tqualey said:
Hi, Larkin31,

You may just be on the wrong thread. There are numerous posts out there discussing the existence of God (and that would be with a capital “G” if you please).

While it may seem perfectly logical to see all of these patterns in nature (human life, animal life, insect life, mineral development, the depths of the ocean and the cosmos - in fact - EVERYTHING) came about without a Pattern Maker - it would more sense to throw a bunch of watch parts up against the wall and expect a perfectly ticking watch to fall back!

There is, of course the idea that if you say you do not believe long enough - when you draw your last breath - you will be conditioned to exhale with non-belief. But, you know, it never seems to work out that way (at least for those with at least average sanity). The story in Luke about the Rich Man who died and was buried and the poor man, Lazarus, who died and went to Abraham’s bosom…is an interesting story. Now, it may be that there really isn’t a God (:eek:) and all of this that we see just came about! But, you know… how can you be sure?

If there is a God and you spent your life denying Him and His Word, well it would be devestating to find out you were wrong! :eek: There is at lest a 2:1 shot that there is a God - and, if you take the bet and are wrong … well… obviously, no big deal - and you got to do a lot of helpful things for other people. Ah, but if there is a God… and you believe what He has said and follow the commands of Chrsit - well, you will be rewarded. This really does beat the hell out of the other approach, wouldn’t you say?

Sorry to have gotten off the thread… I will now return… 😃

God bless
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“Better safe than sorry”

This is definitely off-topic.
 
*I have been very busy and so I got behind and am presently reading page 28.

I am wondering why Larkin is even participating on this thread since he proclaims himself to be “Agnostic” which means that he doubts, is not sure…? I think that it is fine to participate but to question in a humble way. To snigger makes one think that Larkin is here to…ridicule perhaps?

Hmmm…:confused:*
 
Cinette said:
*I have been very busy and so I got behind and am presently reading page 28.

I am wondering why Larkin is even participating on this thread since he proclaims himself to be “Agnostic” which means that he doubts, is not sure…? I think that it is fine to participate but to question in a humble way. To snigger makes one think that Larkin is here to…ridicule perhaps?

Hmmm…:confused:*
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Why don’t you speak directly to me? Is that any less rude? The few times I have sniggered it has only been in reply to smug superiority. I otherwise am very sincere and serious here. But I won’t just take self-righteous accusations with a loving smile.
 
Hi, Larkin31,

I have not observed any ‘loving smiles’ beaming from your posts.

Actually wondering about ridicule is rather charitable … you have been dismissive to some and simply argumentative to others.

Since you claim you do not believe in God, just what is it you hope to accomplish on this thread? I tried to point you in another direction - and you were dismissive to me.

Maybe just ignoring your posts would be the most appropriate response - that way, rudeness will not be verbalized… at least any further.

God bless
larkin31 said:
Why don’t you speak directly to me? Is that any less rude? The few times I have sniggered it has only been in reply to smug superiority. I otherwise am very sincere and serious here. But I won’t just take self-righteous accusations with a loving smile.
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tqualey said:
Hi, Shawn38.

I realize your intent with this post … but it would be best to take a truly historical view to what the ECF were doing. A fully developed theology of the Euchsarist did not come around until the 9th Century… or about 400 years after the last ECF. If you want to see how these ECFs developed their thinking, this link may be helpful: catholicfaithandreason.org/fathersoneucharist.htm

God bless
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I’m taking a historical look at matters. The way the church refuted the Gnostics was based upon the symbolic view. As late as 200 AD, Tertullian bases the reality of Christ’s body on the cross, upon the fact that the bread is symbolic:

“Taking bread and distributing it to his disciples he made it his own body by saying, “This is my body,” that is a “figure of my body.” On the other hand, there would not have been a figure unless there was a true body.” (Tertullian, Against Marcion IV. 40)

Had Tertullian argued, just as Irenaeus did, that the natural elements of common juice and bread were transubstantiated into something different than what they appear, namely the body and blood of Christ, the Gnostics would have agreed completely. However they did not. The literalistic language was typical of how people talked on all sides of the debate before 200AD. Transubstantiation only became official Catholic doctrine in 1215 AD, with Pope Innocent III, in the Fourth Lateran Council.
 
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