How many deny Jesus Christ in the Eucharist?

[larkin31]

Hi, Larkin31

Not to intrude … but, you know… Nicea is really quite right. But, let me answer your question: the Apostles probably did not KNOW that Christ was actually holding His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity in His Hands - and broke It and gave It to the Apostles to eat. They got this insight into what Christ’s Plan for our Salvation is - as an on-going revelation beginning with the Resurrection and going on through Pentecost and beyond with the Guidance of the Holy Spirit Christ promised to His Church - and, that would be the Catholic Church.

Now, here is a question for you. Since God can do all things, just what is it that makes you think He can not conceal Himself under the appearances of Bread and Wine? This is especially important when you consider that Christ actually said we were to eat His Flesh - and just to prove he was understood … people said He could not do such a thing and walked away. No one walks away from a metaphor!

Imagine Christ actually tell It like it is! The only ones, at least as I see it, that have a problem with believing Christ are the 16th Century protestants and their followers today.

God bless

Tom

Tom, you seem to be saying both that at that first-last supper, Christ’s body was both broken and not-broken. If you are simply proclaiming that God can do anything, even deceive those first partakers in the Eucharist while Jesus was alive, well, then I don’t know what to say. That seems a strange and deceitful thing for God to do. And entirely unnecessary. But you may certainly believe so, if you wish.

He asks them to do it “in remembrance”. This is a ritualistic request, not one of transubstantiation (it seems to me). Again, obviously I am not a Catholic, but I am simply commenting on the language of the passage: it is ritualistic and metaphorical at this first Eucharist.

 

[Nicea325]

“This is my body broken for you”

Did anyone at that table think that he had just broken his own body? Or just shed his own blood?

I’ll say it again,early church teachings are 100% away from your novel tradition,whether you care to admit it or not. Explain to me why on earth Jesus would have one consume a mere symbol and not give us His Body,Soul and Divinity? No offense,but you are like the Jews who walked,your thinking is far to carnal.

BTW: You did not answer me,what was CONSUMED during the Passover meal?

 

[Nicea325]

This is my body…Do this in rememberance of me.
This is my blood…Do this in remembrance of me.

When Jesus held up the bread, which was a symbol of his body, he did not say I and the bread are the same, I am the bread and the bread is me and the same with the wine.
I could hold up a pencil and say this is my finger, does that make the pencil my finger, of course not it is a sympol of my finger. I pour out water from a cup and say this is a water fall, does that make the water poured out from the cup a waterf all, of course not, it is a symbol of a water fall. I have not seen anywhere in the Bible that say it is his actual body and actual blood.

And I have yet to read anywhere in the Bible that Jesus used the phrase: This represents my body or this symbolizes my body.And I also have yet to read anywhere God says something and does not happen? Did he not say let there be light? So it was! So if Jesus said: This IS my Body, and He is God in the Flesh, who are we as mere creatures to question God what he can and cannot do? Is it impossible for God to gives us His FULL Soul,Divinity and Soul in two simple elements?

History also does not support a symbolic Eucharist nor did the early church teach a symbolic Eucharist. It is all novel!

 

[Nicea325]

Tom, you seem to be saying both that at that first-last supper, Christ’s body was both broken and not-broken. If you are simply proclaiming that God can do anything, even deceive those first partakers in the Eucharist while Jesus was alive, well, then I don’t know what to say. That seems a strange and deceitful thing for God to do. And entirely unnecessary. But you may certainly believe so, if you wish.

He asks them to do it “in remembrance”. This is a ritualistic request, not one of transubstantiation (it seems to me). Again, obviously I am not a Catholic, but I am simply commenting on the language of the passage: it is ritualistic and metaphorical at this first Eucharist.

Yeah and the Passover Meal was also ritualistic,but did it stop the Jews from consuming something very important? What was it larkin? What were Jesus’ last words on the cross? Hhmmmm? I wonder what he meant by it and in reference to what?

 

[KathleenGee]

That a although it looks like bread and tastes like bread, and the wine tasting like wine, it is His Body, it is His Blood and–

and in remembrance --Remember, it is the same Jesus Who taught and preached, and healed, and whose mission was soon to end in completion.

 

[larkin31]

I’ll say it again,early church teachings are 100% away from your novel tradition,whether you care to admit it or not.

I’ll take your word for it. I don’t know the history well enough on this. I have no problem admitting it.

Explain to me why on earth Jesus would have one consume a mere symbol and not give us His Body,Soul and Divinity? No offense,but you are like the Jews who walked,your thinking is far to carnal.

It is no offense in the world to me to say that I am like a Jew. Did you mean it as an offense? Why would ANYONE take it as an offense?

Jesus might say “do this in remembrance of me” because, well, that is what he wanted.

BTW: You did not answer me,what was CONSUMED during the Passover meal?

I did not see this question. Seder bread and wine were consumed, of course. You already know these answers, right?

 

[larkin31]

Yeah and the Passover Meal was also ritualistic,but did it stop the Jews from consuming something very important? What was it larkin? What were Jesus’ last words on the cross? Hhmmmm? I wonder what he meant by it and in reference to what?

Huh?

Clearly, both Jewish and Christian faiths have very important rituals around the ingestion of food. This is a common trait among many religions.

“Into thy hands I commend my spirit” is a reference to the Eucharist?

 

[rev_kevin]

And I have yet to read anywhere in the Bible that Jesus used the phrase: This represents my body or this symbolizes my body.And I also have yet to read anywhere God says something and does not happen? Did he not say let there be light? So it was! So if Jesus said: This IS my Body, and He is God in the Flesh, who are we as mere creatures to question God what he can and cannot do? Is it impossible for God to gives us His FULL Soul,Divinity and Soul in two simple elements?

History also does not support a symbolic Eucharist nor did the early church teach a symbolic Eucharist. It is all novel!

Jesus did not say let this be my body and it was his body. He did not say let this be my blood and it was his blood. It is a symbol of his body and blood. Show me in history when the bread and wine became his real body and real blood. The Apostles didn’t mention that it was.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus might say “do this in remembrance of me” because, well, that is what he wanted.

And Catholics do do this in memory of him. (haha! I said do-do)

Each and every hour of the day this anamnesis occurs throughout the world at a Catholic Mass!

No other denomination can claim this!

 

[tqualey]

Try 1Cor 11:23-27

23
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

I hope you are not going to dismiss Paul’s private revelation from the same Christ Who knocked him off his horse on the road to Damascus.

Ultimately, everything you need is right in front of you in your abridged KJV Bible. Just read what is written and stop dancing around the words of Christ saying they do not mean what they clearly say they are mean.

Comparing yourself to God and changing your finger into a pencil is rather poor and does not really address the serious nature of this discussion.

God bless

Tom

This is my body…Do this in rememberance of me.
This is my blood…Do this in remembrance of me.

When Jesus held up the bread, which was a symbol of his body, he did not say I and the bread are the same, I am the bread and the bread is me and the same with the wine.
I could hold up a pencil and say this is my finger, does that make the pencil my finger, of course not it is a sympol of my finger. I pour out water from a cup and say this is a water fall, does that make the water poured out from the cup a waterf all, of course not, it is a symbol of a water fall. I have not seen anywhere in the Bible that say it is his actual body and actual blood.

 

[larkin31]

…Comparing yourself to God and changing your finger into a pencil is rather poor and does not really address the serious nature of this discussion…

I see no disrespect in his analogy, especially not in a thread that asks how many of us dispute the literal presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

 

[larkin31]

And Catholics do do this in memory of him. (haha! I said do-do)

Each and every hour of the day this anamnesis occurs throughout the world at a Catholic Mass!

No other denomination can claim this!

yes, there are Catholic churches around the world

 

[rev_kevin]

Try 1Cor 11:23-27

23
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

I hope you are not going to dismiss Paul’s private revelation from the same Christ Who knocked him off his horse on the road to Damascus.

Ultimately, everything you need is right in front of you in your abridged KJV Bible. Just read what is written and stop dancing around the words of Christ saying they do not mean what they clearly say they are mean.

Comparing yourself to God and changing your finger into a pencil is rather poor and does not really address the serious nature of this discussion.

God bless

Tom

verses 23-28 For I myself received from the Lord tha account that I pass on to you. that the Lord Jesus the night he was bertayed took some bread and gave thanks for it and then broke it in pieces saying, This is my body which takes your place, Do this is memory of me. He took the cup too after supper in the same way saying This cup is the new agreement ratified by my blood. Whenever you drink it do so in memory of me. For until the Lord comes back, every time you eat this bread and drink this cup. you proclaim his death. Hence anyone who eats the bread or drinks from the Lord’s cup in a way that is unworthy of it will be guilty of profaning the body and the blood of the Lord. A man should examine himself and only when he has done so should he eat andy of the bread of drink from the cup.
Taken from THE COMPLETE BIBLE

This is my body which TAKES YOUR PLACE do this in memory of me. His body is taking the place for our sins and we are to rememer that.
The cup is the new agreement do this in memory of me. When you drink you are to remember the new agreement between God and us.

Until the Lord comes back…you are to proclaim his death. You are to proclaim his death in public by eating and drinking.
If you eat and drink of it unworthy you are not concerned with religion or religious puposes.It means that you should not violate or treat it with irreverance, abuse or contempt.

Yes it is right infront of me and this is what I see. Just because I don’t see it the way you see it don’t mean I’m dancing around. He don’t say this is his real body and blood.

Now for the finger part. I was not comparing myself to God so lets not even start that kind of junk. If you are so blind that you can’t see that it was to show symbolizing something for something else. No more and no less just showing how you can use something to symbolize something else. So doin’t twist what I meant and say I was comparing myself to God.

 

[PRmerger]

yes, there are Catholic churches around the world

What was it you said to Nicea a few posts back? Oh yeah, here it is:

way to miss the point!

The Catholic Mass is celebrated around the world, 24/7, “doing this in memory of him.”

 

[larkin31]

What was it you said to Nicea a few posts back? Oh yeah, here it is:

The Catholic Mass is celebrated around the world, 24/7, “doing this in memory of him.”

yes, that is what I meant

I fully agree

 

[KathleenGee]

RevKevin,

Then you say the Lord did not intend what we Catholics believe…when there is a dispute of what words mean, then this is now the time to go back into history and see what the actual practices are in the earliest times of Christianity…

And you have to also take into account the political times…70 ad was the destruction of the Jewish temple, 80 years later or so, there was a revolt and a second attempt to rebuild the Temple in the Holy Land, and then there were persecutions of Christians throughout the world, thus making it more difficult to record and standardize a universal practice…

However, St. Justin the Martyr was asked to give an account of what happened at the Mass, and he as well as many others in those times, affirmed the traditions that the bread and wine they ate and drank was Divine.

The Eucharist is the body and bread, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ…which can only go so far…

You have to see the practices and the graces received and witnessed by countless Christians throughout time to bring to light the true intent of Jesus Christ with His words.

Without the actual practices, then we are just going in circular disputes. You have to look at the practices of the apostolic faith in conjunction with Scriptures. Otherwise we are on another merry go round…

And I read quite a bit of international news this past week. My uncle told me when I was a child that some day there would be people starving on the streets. We are approaching a most sobering international financial collapse, as well as a movement within the USA to change our way of government against the will of the people. There will be ramifications. I am preparing myself now for that, to be strong in Christ, and avoid endless arguments over the sacred.

The Lord was already correcting wrong understanding of HIs mission before His death, and His Church was ready at Pentecost to begin the fulfillment of Scripture. The Book of Revelations ended at the beginning of the universal, apostolic church. The Church is the means to help us know what the Lord indeed met so that we can go forward in clarity and strength and not confusion, agitation, fracturing and arbitrating His Body we have been called to be one with through His Blood. Our priests are the ministers of His Blood, and we draw on eternal life through the sacraments.

 

[PRmerger]

yes, that is what I meant

I fully agree

Excellent!

Then please explain what your point is here:

Jesus might say “do this in remembrance of me” because, well, that is what he wanted.

It sounds like you’re saying that’s what Jesus wanted, but that’s NOT what Catholics do.

Then you’re saying, “I fully agree” that the Catholic Church does indeed do this 24/7, throughout the world.

(BTW, no other denomination fulfills this command of Jesus like we do–every single day, every single hour, from east to west, in every corner of the planet!.)

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Larkin31,

So, considering everything else I said, this was all you chose to comment on?

Hmmmmmmmmm… maybe there is some hope, eh?

God bless

I see no disrespect in his analogy, especially not in a thread that asks how many of us dispute the literal presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

Let me show you your dance steps… But, I will have to do this in two posts… and this is Part one of two.

verses 23-28 **For I myself received from the Lord tha account that I pass on to you. **
Here is the private revalation that Paul received since he was not at the Last Supper

** that the Lord Jesus the night he was bertayed took some bread and gave thanks for it and then broke it in pieces saying, This is my body which takes your place,**
Here are the Words of Christ that changed common bread and wine into His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity. CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS - HE TOOK OUR PLACE SO THAT WE, WHO COULD NEVER ATONE FOR SIN, WOULD BE SAVED BY CHRIST.

** Do this is memory of me.**
Here is where Christ commands His Apostles - the First Bishops of the Catholic Church - to continue what He has shown them at the Last Supper. Christ has given these Apostles the power to act in His Place and consecrate bread and wine into Jesus Christ

He took the cup too after supper in the same way saying This cup is the new agreement ratified by my blood. Whenever you drink it do so in memory of me.
Apparently, just in case anyone missed what is going on here … He takes the cup of common wine and consecrates this into His Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity. He then tells His Apostles that they are to do the same - the unbloddy sacrifice of Jesus Christ - and these men now have the power to do this. All you have to do is read what is written.

** For until the Lord comes back, every time you eat this bread and drink this cup. you proclaim his death.**
Everyone that sees the the Consecrated Bread and Wine sees the physical appearance of bread and wine. Since Christ is God and God can not lie - we believe EVERTHING that He said. No spin, No dance. Just the words and their clear and contextual meaning. THE CONSECRATION OF THE BREAD AND WINE INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST IS TO BE DONE UNTIL CHRIST COMES AGAIN. This common looking Bread and Wine is really Christ. If it isn’t - then He lied to us. And, if He lied to us about this - what else has He lied to us about? You really can’t have it both ways, Rev.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rev Kevin,

Let me show you your dance steps… But, I will have to do this in two posts… and this is Part two of two.

** For until the Lord comes back, every time you eat this bread and drink this cup. you proclaim his death.**
Everyone that sees the the Consecrated Bread and Wine sees the physical appearance of bread and wine. Since Christ is God and God can not lie - we believe EVERTHING that He said. No spin, No dance. Just the words and their clear and contextual meaning. THE CONSECRATION OF THE BREAD AND WINE INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST IS TO BE DONE UNTIL CHRIST COMES AGAIN. This common looking Bread and Wine is really Christ. If it isn’t - then He lied to us. And, if He lied to us about this - what else has He lied to us about? You really can’t have it both ways, Rev.

** Hence anyone who eats the bread or drinks from the Lord’s cup in a way that is unworthy of it will be guilty of profaning the body and the blood of the Lord.**
You can not profane a metaphor. Here is Paul clearly telling us that this is NOT A SYMBOL - BUT THE BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD that these Corinthians have profaned. Paul is condemning their impious actions - and in so doing telling them clearly that this is Christ - not some common bit of bread and wine - that they are disrespecting.

** A man should examine himself and only when he has done so should he eat andy of the bread of drink from the cup. **
You do not “examine” yourself for a metaphor. Christ told Peter this is HIS REAL BODY and Paul is reminding those in Corinth, who have apparently become lax in their focus, that they need to get serious about what is really going on here.

Taken from THE COMPLETE BIBLE Interesting name… most Protestant Bibles I am familiar with are missing seven books in the OT… but, that’s another story.

This is my body which TAKES YOUR PLACE do this in memory of me. His body is taking the place for our sins and we are to rememer that. not to put too fine a point on this - but, we are to do more then just remember it - we are to live our lives according to this greatest demonstration of Love the world has ever known.

The cup is the new agreement do this in memory of me. When you drink you are to remember the new agreement between God and us. OK… but, look at my preceeding comment.

Until the Lord comes back…you are to proclaim his death. You are to proclaim his death in public by eating and drinking. AND, HERE IS THE DANCE - this is not just eating and drinking - go back to Paul telling the Corinthians who were just ‘eating and drinking’ that they were profaning the Body and of the Lord.

If you eat and drink of it unworthy you are not concerned with religion or religious puposes.It means that you should not violate or treat it with irreverance, abuse or contempt. Realy? And, just where does that come from, Rev? That is not what Paul said. He condemned these Corinthians for profaning the Body of the Lord.

Yes it is right infront of me and this is what I see. Just because I don’t see it the way you see it don’t mean I’m dancing around. He don’t say this is his real body and blood.

And, this is why it is so sad. It is true today: “They have eyes and see not…” I have used your abridged bible and given you line by line. You have rejected Christ’s explanation in John 6, you have rejected Christ’s words in the Last Supper account of Matthew, Mark and Luke, and you have rejected Paul’s account of his private revelation in 1Corinthians. And, this is just from scripture… there were 1,600 years of Catholic Church history that embraced these words and clearly identified that the Consecrated Bread and Wine is the Body and Blood of Christ. Rev, the way I see it, you have rejected it all.

Now for the finger part. I was not comparing myself to God so lets not even start that kind of junk. If you are so blind that you can’t see that it was to show symbolizing something for something else. No more and no less just showing how you can use something to symbolize something else. So doin’t twist what I meant and say I was comparing myself to God.

First of all, it was not junk. Secondly, your analogy is you can say this is that just like Chrsit said this Bread is His Body. So, if you were not comparing yourself to God - were you saying that Chrsit did not have any more power then you have to change a finger into a pencil? What do you really mean?

God bless