How many different Beliefs Systems are there within Post Reformation Western Christianity

[JacktheCatholic]

Numerous times I have seen the number of denominations bandied about with many different viewpoints on the validity of the number (usually 30,000 or more).
What bothers me personally about this number is that it doesn’t necessarily reflect the actual differences in Christian thought. So I want to reframe the question in order to discern better just how many doctrinal differences there are floating around out there.

So - - - -

Just what are the doctrinal differences among the various Christian sects in the Post Reformation Western Church(es)?
How many of these are truly contradictory and how many are more of a matter of understanding, emphasis or “semantics”**?**s

It is impossible to get an accurate nuumber and you really cannot go by existing records for churches that have filed to be a Christian Church. If we used names it would fail and the reason is that since the so called “Protestant Reformation” it has become a new tradition for anyone not Catholic to be the Sole Authority on matters of Faith and Morals. Since the beginning, when Calvin and Luther proclaimed their own Authority on matters of Faith and Morals, anyone not Catholic has believed whatever they chose to believe. They believe that since they are baptized and in the body of Christ that they have some special guidance to determine matters of Faith and Morals on their own. This means that according to Post “Reformation” times that all churches (not Catholic) are a person’s individual matter based on what they perceive to be from God.

The answer is as many Protestants is the number for “different sects” and yet they all have one thing in common which is that each person has the same authority as the Pope. Martin Luther was the Lutheran’s first Pope. King Henry VIII was the Anglican’s first Pope. So on and so on…

In today’s world with “Non Denominational” anyone choosing to have a bible study at home is a Pope. Protestants are all Popes.

**Every non Catholic (and dare I say heterdox Catholic) is a Pope unto themself and they will erroneously support this using scripture. **

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The historical method has been used (Who founded your Church?), though usually vaguely (and note that most of the early sects died out and their teachings recently have been brought back).

Of course that can get very complicated when you try looking at some of the protestant sects (for example the PCUSA history).

Wiki has some good resources: another graph of the major groups, and a listing of Christian denominations.

Again, however,** there is little notion of how doctrine is shared by these groups as they have historically divided and combined in every imaginable combination and may bear nothing in common with their original founders **(find me a Calvinist with Marian devotion).

Exactly.

 

[Bluegoat]

The historical method has been used (Who founded your Church?), though usually vaguely (and note that most of the early sects died out and their teachings recently have been brought back).

Of course that can get very complicated when you try looking at some of the protestant sects (for example the PCUSA history).

Wiki has some good resources: another graph of the major groups, and a listing of Christian denominations.

Again, however, there is little notion of how doctrine is shared by these groups as they have historically divided and combined in every imaginable combination and may bear nothing in common with their original founders (find me a Calvinist with Marian devotion).

THe wikipedia graph is actually a pretty good place to start I would say. I don’t like the “Who founded your church” one as much - in some cases I’m not sure if it’s really very accurate to talk about a founder. So we could make a list like this based mostly on the wiki one:

Orthodox
Roman Catholic
Anglican
mainstream Protestantism
Calvinism
Anabaptist
Restorationism

So perhaps it would be possible to list the major denominations that fall under each in a convincing way, and their characteristic doctrines? Because often these groupings may have several denominations that believe essentially the same thing, they just might exist in different places. We could ignore any that don’t fall into any group for now, and I don’t think non-denominational churches could be addressed except as a single group, which would have some value.

(I’m not sure if people want to include the EO, or the OO or Assyrian Church? It might be interesting, especially if some of the Protestant groups turn out to have similar beliefs.)

 

[JacktheCatholic]

As a Catholic we still see the EOC and OOC as Catholic so I see no benefit with showing them as a denomination that is not Catholic.

 

[Anna_Scott]

creationism/intelligent design is now taught in some Protestant Churches. So, this might be one more to add.

The Baptist Church I attended for a number of years still has these classes periodically. Several years ago, I attended a Bible Class there, and the teacher said, “If you do not accept the creation as six literal days, you may have a faith issue.” So, this is moving into the arena of doctrine.

Anna

 

[CDNowak]

As a Catholic we still see the EOC and OOC as Catholic so I see no benefit with showing them as a denomination that is not Catholic.

I think bluegoat meant the corresponding Orthodox Churches. But I agree that the Churches that make up both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches should not be listed with the denominations (in part because they have united beliefs which is sort of the point of this exercise).

 

[JacktheCatholic]

I think bluegoat meant the corresponding Orthodox Churches. But I agree that the Churches that make up both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches should not be listed with the denominations (in part because they have united beliefs which is sort of the point of this exercise).

Personally I find only two.

1. Catholic
2. Protestant

Meaning you are either a Catholic and part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or… you are not.

 

[CDNowak]

Personally I find only two.

1. Catholic
2. Protestant

Meaning you are either a Catholic and part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or… you are not.

That is actually too simplistic to be true, let alone useful. The Orthodox, for example, are neither in full communion with the Catholic Church, nor are they protestant. They truly are churches.

Their are also communities that are very close to Catholicism in belief, and need more of a gentle nudge than others.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That is actually too simplistic to be true, let alone useful. The Orthodox, for example, are neither in full communion with the Catholic Church, nor are they protestant. They truly are churches.

Their are also communities that are very close to Catholicism in belief, and need more of a gentle nudge than others.

The are protestant to the extent that they are in protest against the Catholic Church which predates their existence.

 

[CDNowak]

The are protestant to the extent that they are in protest against the Catholic Church which predates their existence.

If you are suggesting that the Orthodox are protestant, then you really are ignorant of the history of the Eastern Church. The Orthodox Churches were legitimate Churches in communion with the Church of Rome for a thousand years. They were not formed in protest, nor do they operate on the principle of protest (as do the non-denominational churches).

And even among the protestant denominations it is extremely useful to make distinctions between those that branches of the Anglican communion that have preserved nearly Catholic teaching (minus the Papacy, for the most part), those non-denominational communities that lack a Christian understanding of any of the sacraments, and those far flung sects like Jehova’s Witnesses whose beliefs are so far flung as to question whether they are Christian at all.

 

[JRKH]

Personally I find only two.

1. Catholic
2. Protestant

Meaning you are either a Catholic and part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church or… you are not.

Careful here we do not want to let this get away from the original intent which is to discuss/examine how many actual doctrinal differences there are. If we use your definition then there aer only two “denominations” and not 33,000. Hardly useful to a discussion of doctrinal differences.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The are protestant to the extent that they are in protest against the Catholic Church which predates their existence.

The fact is that, if we did a spreadsheet the E.O. Churches would line up virtually identically to the Latin Rite Church. In addition they have a valid priesthood and are every bit as ancient as the Latin Rite Church. Pope John Paul II called the Catholic and E.O. Churches the “left and right lungs” which to me removes them from being “protestant” in nature.

Peace
James

 

[CDNowak]

OK, let’s get back on topic:

THe wikipedia graph is actually a pretty good place to start I would say. I don’t like the “Who founded your church” one as much - in some cases I’m not sure if it’s really very accurate to talk about a founder. So we could make a list like this based mostly on the wiki one:

Orthodox: Eastern, Oriental, Coptic, etc.

Catholic: Latin, Eastern, Oriental, Coptic, etc.

Anglican: Anglican and Episcopalian in regional organizations: not all are in full union with each other.

All the rest seem to be a variety of loose confederations:
Methodist:
Lutheran:
Calvinist:
Baptist:
Anabaptist:
Restoration:

 

[Bluegoat]

I think bluegoat meant the corresponding Orthodox Churches. But I agree that the Churches that make up both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches should not be listed with the denominations (in part because they have united beliefs which is sort of the point of this exercise).

I meant the Eastern Orthodox as a whole, the Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Christians, all of whom are seperate groups from Catholics and the Protestant groups.

They do have different doctrines from Catholics, and some of the Protestant groups are closer to them on some points than they are to Catholicism, which would be missed if you didn’t include them. And Catholics sometimes do tend to reject a Protestant view on an issue while accepting the same POV from the OC, which seems to me to be something to avoid or at least be aware of.

And I suspect that if were to look at some groups like the Assyrians, there might be some interesting parallels with some of the more obscure Restorationists - I’m not sure about that but it would be interesting to see.

But, it isn’t my thread, so I’ll certainly defer to the OP.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’ll fill in what I can, maybe others can add and we’ll discuss any disagreements? I’m just reproducing this list, but I suspect the EO and the OO may have to be separated? We may have to neaten things up as we go along.

Orthodox:Eastern,

• No sola scripture. Tradition is of major importance
• No OSAS
• Saints very important
• Real Presence, no transubstantiation
• Purgatory is not understood the same way as in Catholisism or is rejected
• Infant Baptism and confirmation and Communication of infants
• Reject papacy though some see special role for Roman Bishop
• Seven sacraments
• Apastolic succession

Catholic: (Latin, Eastern, Oriental, Coptic, etc.)

Anglican: Anglican and Episcopalian in regional organizations: not all are in full union with each other.

• Recognize two major sacraments and five minor sacraments - “outward and visible signs of an inward and spiritual grace”
• Accept the real presence but reject transubstantiation as an essential teaching.
• Accept apostolic succession
• Accept justification by faith
• Reject purgatory as an essential doctrine and reject the use of indulgences entirely.
• The formula for Christian understanding is Scripture, Tradition, Reason
• Accepts prayers to saints and to the dead. No longer has a mechanism to recognize saints. Emphasis varies by congregation.
• All things necessary to salvation are found in scripture (as understood through reason and tradition)
• Does not consider many Marian doctrines as necessary doctrine but many practice them
• Reject Papacy though some see special role for Roman bishop
• Views salvation as something worked out over time, not OSAS
• Practices infant baptism

All the rest seem to be a variety of loose confederations:
Methodist:
Lutheran:
Calvinist:
Baptist:
Anabaptist:
Restoration:

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Careful here we do not want to let this get away from the original intent which is to discuss/examine how many actual doctrinal differences there are. If we use your definition then there aer only two “denominations” and not 33,000. Hardly useful to a discussion of doctrinal differences.

Peace
James

There was a Pope that submitted a Bull (I believe) and stated that you must be Catholic to get into Heaven. Of course this was meant as you must be in the Body of Christ because it is only through Jesus Christ that one can enter Heaven. In this way the word Catholic denotes the ONE Church or ONE Body of Christ. Anything else is not the Body of Christ.

I think it best to keep it simple. I think the devils wish for us to make things complex so they can be easily twisted to something other than Truth.

So, I think one is either Catholic (part of the Body of Jesus Christ) or they are not. Titles like Catholic or Baptist or Lutheran mean nothing when we look at it this way. It boils down to One Truth and One Church.

I have seen too many of the “Denomination” threads degrade in to a mess with so many varying opinions as there are people submitting posts. I would conclude by saying that Lumen Gentium addresses this some and it is worth a read.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

QUOTE (though the whole document is awesome):

1. Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*)

This is the one Church of Christ which in the Creed is professed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic, (12*) which our Saviour, after His Resurrection, commissioned Peter to shepherd,(74) and him and the other apostles to extend and direct with authority,(75) which He erected for all ages as “the pillar and mainstay of the truth”.(76) This Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

More pointedly to our discussion:

Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

and

1. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

 

[Contarini]

Adventists
Anglicans
Anabaptist
Baptist
Calvinist

Here it gets tricky. There are Calvinist Anglicans, and most Baptists come from Calvinist roots. Other Baptists consider themselves Anabaptists.

Charismatic

Blends very well with various other traditions–including Catholic!

Congregational

If you mean congregational church polity, this is again compatible with many Protestant traditions. If you mean the denomination, they are historically a subset of Calvinism distinguished from other infant-baptizing Calvinists by their adherence to congregational polity, and from Calvinist Baptists by their acceptance of infant baptism. Since few on either side in the Reformed tradition see the church polity question as church-dividing, and since Congregationalists have frequently formed mergers and made agreements with other Christians, I’d say that this shouldn’t be considered separate.

Lutheran
Methodist / Wesleyan
Nazarene

Nazarenes are Wesleyan in theology, although they do have a strong sense of their own identity and have fewer links with Methodism than some other Wesleyan/Holiness denominations.

Pentecostal
Plymouth Brethren
Presbyterian

Subset of Calvinist

Religious Society of Friends (Quaker)
Reformed

Another word for “Calvinist,” essentially (though you could argue that “Calvinist” is narrower in its connotations–but these are certainly not two “belief systems”).

Restoration movement
Seventh-day Adventist

So your “Adventist” item above is actually just the Sunday Adventists? They’re a pretty small group.

Waldensians

Not a separate “belief system” since the Reformation. They merged with the Reformed and until recently were considered Presbyterians. I believe that recently they have merged with the Methodists! Which goes to show how fluid these things can be in Protestantism.

I myself would follow J. Gordon Melton for convenience and symmetry and distinguish 10 broad Protestant groupings (keeping to movements at least some branches of which are orthodox Trinitarians):

Anglicans
Lutherans
Reformed
Methodists/Pietists
Holiness
Pentecostal
Anabaptists (Melton’s term is “European Free Church” and he includes Quakers)
Baptists (including Restorationists)
Fundamentalists (Plymouth Brethren and various nondenominational or hard-to-classify groups on the conservative end of low-church Protestantism)
Adventists

I’m not sure I’d list Holiness as separate from Methodists, but there are certainly huge differences between *liberal *Methodists and conservative Holiness folks! And one could say that several of these categories include several quite distinct “belief systems.” I confess that I like this ordering because if you include the Catholics and Orthodox you have the Biblical number of twelve! Caveat: I do not for a minute believe that a “tribes of Israel” analogy justifies division among Christians. We are called to organic unity. But as the Pope has said, this includes liturgical and cultural and even theological diversity within a common faith. And in my opinion all the groups I have mentioned are genuinely part of the Catholic Church, the Body of Christ, our holy Mother.

Edwin

 

[Erich]

Did anyone mention:

Sola Gratia
Observance of Jewish Festivals as fulfilled by Christ?
Continued Revelation

How 'bout:

How many Sacraments are there, anyway? 7? 3? 2? more? fewer?
Are the Sacraments efficacious? or just symbolic?
Belief in angels and devils?
Apostolic succession?
What about the Deuterocanonicals?

Here’s a list compiled by Prodigal Son1 on this post:

There are many different doctrines.

Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. unitarianism
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help themselves)

There are many different doctrines just on baptism:

required for salvation? not required?
infants? adult only?
sacrament (washes away sin)? or not?

Similarly for the Eucharist:

Transubstantiation? Consubstantiation? “spiritually present?” “it’s just bread?”
Is the Eucharist a means of forgiving some sins (per Matt:26:26-28)? or not?

 

[Anna_Scott]

Numerous times I have seen the number of denominations bandied about with many different viewpoints on the validity of the number (usually 30,000 or more).
What bothers me personally about this number is that it doesn’t necessarily reflect the actual differences in Christian thought. So I want to reframe the question in order to discern better just how many doctrinal differences there are floating around out there.

So - - - -

Just what are the doctrinal differences among the various Christian sects in the Post Reformation Western Church(es)?
How many of these are truly contradictory and how many are more of a matter of understanding, emphasis or “semantics”?

Please make sure that the items posted are actual “Doctrinal beliefs” and not merely practices or “personal devotion” in nature.
Please - Lets keep this civil and let’s learn from each other.

I’ll begin with some of the more obvious differences and hope that I don’t post any errors.

• Sola Scriptura
• Sola Fide
• OSAS
• The Role of Saints
• Real Presence
• Infant Baptism

These are the ones I can think of off hand. Please add any others that I missed.
From this perhaps we can better understand how many different belief systems there Actually are in Wester Christianity.

Peace
James

James: I searched the Thread and have a “draft” of most doctrines mentioned. Welcome additions, corrections, deletions, etc.

Abortion vs. pro-life
Afterlife: purgatory, hell, annihilation, eternal torment
Alcoholic beverages allowed vs. not allowed
Angels
Apostolic Succession
Authority: church governance/leadership; interpretation of Scripture; priesthood of believers
Baptism: Infant vs. adult - immersion vs. non- immersion; necessary for salvation vs. symbolic of death and resurrection of Christ
Bible Canon
Bible: literal vs. allegorical; fallible vs. infallible divinely inspired Word of God;
Charity vs. no charity (help one another or let them help themselves)
Church and State
Church/Ecclesiology
Contraception
Creationism/intelligent design
Creeds and Confessions
Demons
Divorce
Eucharist (Communion)/full presences of Christ vs. Lord’s Supper/Remembrance of Christ’s death & resurrection (Transubstantiation vs. Consubstantiation)
Evangelism and missions
Exorcism
Healing and miracles (Word of faith movement)
Jesus- identity as “God/Man”
Jewish Festivals celebrated as fulfilled by Christ
Judgment of others vs. non-judgment of others
Kingdom of God
Nephilim
Ordination: men & women vs. men only; heterosexual only vs. heterosexual & homosexual
Prayer: prayer to Saints, Virgin Mary vs. prayer only to God the Father through God the Son
Priesthood of believers
Prosperity Doctrines
Rapture
Replacement theology/supersessionism vs. dispensationalism/premillennialism
Resurrection
Revelation & Prophesy: closed vs. continued
Sabbath: Saturday vs. Sunday worship
Sacraments
Saints
Salvation: Once saved, always saved (eternal security) vs.
Salvation: regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.
Satan
Sex: premarital vs. abstinence, until marriage
Sexuality
Sin: original sin; what is sin and what is not sin; does sin change
Sola Fide (by faith alone)
Sola Gratia (by grace alone) free will vs. irresistible grace
Sola Scriptura (by Scripture alone)
Soli Deo gloria (glory to God alone)
Solo Scriptura vs. Sola Scriptura
Solus Christus or Solo Christo (Christ alone or through Christ alone)
Suffering (redemptive, punishment for sin, etc. )
Tithing
Tongues: purpose and role in salvation
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Virgin Birth of Christ
Virgin Mary: immaculate conception/assumption vs. born with original sin and died as any other person
War
Woman’s rights
Worship: weekly Church attendance vs. no Church attendance; music vs. no music - singing vs. no singing; head coverings for women vs. no head coverings;

We’ve got quite a list going. Matching these to Christian Church/Denominations could really be a challenge.
Anna

 

[Bluegoat]

OK, here is a more concise complete effort.

Orthodox: Eastern
* Sola Scriptura - No
* Sola Fide - No
* OSAS - No
* The Role of Saints - Yes
* Real Presence - Yes
* Infant Baptism - Yes, as well as infant confirmation and communication
* Apostolic - Yes
*Sacraments - 7 effectual

Orthodox: Oriental
* Sola Scriptura
* Sola Fide
* OSAS
* The Role of Saints
* Real Presence
* Infant Baptism
*Apostolic

**Catholic: **
* Sola Scriptura - No
* Sola Fide - No
* OSAS - No
* The Role of Saints - Yes
* Real Presence - Yes, and transubstantiation
* Infant Baptism - Yes
*Apostolic - Yes, with papacy
*Sacraments - 7

**Anglican: **
* Sola Scriptura - not exactly
* Sola Fide - Yes, understood broadly
* OSAS - No
* The Role of Saints - Yes
* Real Presence - Yes
* Infant Baptism - Yes
*Apostolic - Yes
*Sacraments - 2 major, 5 minor

Lutheran:
* Sola Scriptura - Yes, but not as much as some others
* Sola Fide - Yes, understood broadly
* OSAS - No
* The Role of Saints - Not really emphasized
* Real Presence - Yes
* Infant Baptism - Yes
*Apostolic - some but not all
*Sacraments- 2

Calvinist:
* Sola Scriptura - Yes
* Sola Fide - Yes, special, see OSAS
* OSAS - Calvinist predestination in some form
* The Role of Saints - No
* Real Presence - depends
* Infant Baptism - traditional Calvinism yes - Baptist Calvinists no
*Apostolic - No

Anabaptist:
* Sola Scriptura - Yes
* Sola Fide - Yes
* OSAS - Yes
* The Role of Saints - No
* Real Presence - No
* Infant Baptism - No
*Apostolic - No

**Restoration: **
* Sola Scriptura
* Sola Fide
* OSAS
* The Role of Saints
* Real Presence
* Infant Baptism
*Apostolic