How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

[Churchmouse]

Christ founded One Church. That One Church remains to this day, with a variety of rites, yet united.

Protestants protested certain teachings and practices of the One Church and broke off to preach and teach things more to their liking. This fragmenting and splintering continues on and on and on…and yes, I do regard all of the splinter groups as protestant ~ they protest the One, True Church founded by Christ Jesus: The Catholic Church.

You have a very “typical” view of Protestantism, so pardon me if I don’t address it (probably wouldn’t do much anyway). The catholic church didn’t teach Roman Catholic distinctives such as purgatory, Marian dogmas, an exclusive priesthood, etc. so what catholic church are you appealing to?

How many Truths do you think there are, Churchmouse? How many True Churches? How many were founded by Christ? Did He abandon the One He founded? Did He make a mistake in founding It? Did He lie when He said He would be with It always? And that the jaws of death would not prevail against It?

Well, I’m sure your presumptions were running wild while typing the above, but to put it in essence, what is the Biblical concept of the church? Christ founded the church (Matt. 16:18). It is universal, made up of all New Covenant believers (Eph. 5:23-25). The church is never used to refer to a building. It is one church made up of fallible human beings. Jesus makes no mistakes, but men do. Jesus never said that the church would be errorless and considering this church is made up of fallible men, men introduced errors. However, there are certain things we need to believe to be saved—orthodox things, such as the deity of Christ—and then there are others which really have no bearing on our salvation, such as “gifts of the Spirit” vs. cessation of these gifts. Thus, the church is made up of individuals who make mistakes and have disagreements. Hope that helps.

Inquiring minds want to know…

You gotta get yourself an Enquirer

Peace,
CM

 

[hawkeye]

stumbler:

Found at:
worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/

Used to be completely free, but now only offers 30-day free trials.

In my quick perusal, I thought Barrett, an Anglican, ignored obvious Anglican divisions, created Catholic divisions were none exist, and didn’t really explore Protestant divisions (or lack thereof) adequately. Regardless, it is clear that Protestants have thousands of denominations. He lists over 600 in the United States alone not counting the growing non-denom phenom.

My favorite Protestant denom:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/01/11/elvis_church040111
Christ the King, Graceland Independent Anglican Church of Canada with their faux elvis pastor
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/elvis_church040111.jpg
Uh-huh HUH! Thankya, Thankya very much!

Ladies & Gentlemen Elvis has left the building

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Churchmouse:

You have a very “typical” view of Protestantism, so pardon me if I don’t address it (probably wouldn’t do much anyway). The catholic church didn’t teach Roman Catholic distinctives such as purgatory, Marian dogmas, an exclusive priesthood, etc. so what catholic church are you appealing to?

The Catholic Church held many views which were not defined until much later, usually when they were challenged or came under attack. The apostles believed in purgatory, and prayed for the dead. They were certainly very devoted to Christ’s Holy Mother. An exclusive priesthood? Not exactly sure what you mean there, but Christ definitely did establish the priesthood at the annointing of the feet of the Apostles at the Last Supper. The Apostles were the first bishops of the Catholic Church.

Well, I’m sure your presumptions were running wild while typing the above,

you’re pretty confident about your powers of perceiving other people’s presumptions and assumptions, much to your error.

… but to put it in essence, what is the Biblical concept of the church? Christ founded the church (Matt. 16:18). It is universal, made up of all New Covenant believers (Eph. 5:23-25).

Part of that New Covenant is the eating of the Body of Christ and the drinking of His Blood, the Blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant. I guess that narrows down the numbers of believers in the New Covenant significantly.

Jesus never said that the church would be errorless

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit upon the Church, and promised that Holy Spirit would guide them in all Truth. The Catholic Church has never taught error, even though sinful men make up the Church. The Holy Spirit guides this Church in all Truth.

… and considering this church is made up of fallible men, men introduced errors.

The Catholic Church has not introduced erroneous doctrines. Men may embrace errors, but the Magisterial teachings of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, are the Catholic’s “insurance policy” against error.

However, there are certain things we need to believe to be saved…and then there are others which really have no bearing on our salvation…Thus, the church is made up of individuals who make mistakes and have disagreements. Hope that helps.

What about One baptism, One Faith, One Lord? We do not all share the same faith. We do not all embrace the same Truth. Jesus did establish an authority to define Truth, and that is the Magisterium. Others who wish to define “truth” for themselves are not members of the same Church, but are following the doctrines of men.

 

[bonica]

stumbler:

Found at:
worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/

Used to be completely free, but now only offers 30-day free trials.

In my quick perusal, I thought Barrett, an Anglican, ignored obvious Anglican divisions, created Catholic divisions were none exist, and didn’t really explore Protestant divisions (or lack thereof) adequately. Regardless, it is clear that Protestants have thousands of denominations. He lists over 600 in the United States alone not counting the growing non-denom phenom.

My favorite Protestant denom:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/01/11/elvis_church040111
Christ the King, Graceland Independent Anglican Church of Canada with their faux elvis pastor
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/photos/elvis_church040111.jpg
Uh-huh HUH! Thankya, Thankya very much!

This can’t be serious, can it?!

 

[Irish_Melkite]

James0235

You get the prize, my brother.

Katholikos:

I’m always happy to be corrected, Neil. Thanks. I guess many who discuss the autonomous ritual churches haven’t gotten the word either. Here are some of my sources (they all give the number as 22):

Jay,

As James said:

James0235:

The Georgians? Everyone always forgets the Georgians.

On the links you provided, you will note that those which actually list the Churches do not include the Byzantine Georgians. If you compare the links, you will also note discrepancies among tehm as to the number of Rites in existence, and which they are.

I suggest as a best source:

CNEWA - Eastern Christian Churches - Roberson

For a list by Rite and Tradition, see:

Rite, Tradition, Church - Part 1

Rite, Tradition, Church - Part 2

Many years,

Neil

 

[Shibboleth]

Just curious but were the sedevacantists figured into this study… and if so where?

 

[Churchmouse]

The Catholic Church held many views which were not defined until much later, usually when they were challenged or came under attack.

This doesn’t prove that the Church held to distinctive RC doctrines and dogmas. For example purgatory, where the Catholic Church claims the majority of us will undergo, but Jesus is silent about it as are the Apostles and the earliest church. Instead, we are asked to believe vague verses which Catholics claim “imply” the doctrine. No, “defining it later” is just a convenient way of substantiating beliefs which weren’t held by the church to begin with.

The apostles believed in purgatory, and prayed for the dead.

The “Apostles” did it? Prove it.

They were certainly very devoted to Christ’s Holy Mother.

The “Apostles” were devoted to “Mary”? Once again, prove it.

An exclusive priesthood? Not exactly sure what you mean there, but Christ definitely did establish the priesthood at the annointing of the feet of the Apostles at the Last Supper. The Apostles were the first bishops of the Catholic Church.

An exclusive priesthood means just that. You aren’t a priest and you cannot be a priest unless ordained by the Church. This is missing from Scripture. You’re referring to John 13, but there is nothing there showing Christ establishing an exclusive priesthood.

you’re pretty confident about your powers of perceiving other people’s presumptions and assumptions, much to your error.

Well, it isn’t confidence. It’s experience—knowing the way I thought when I was Catholic.

Part of that New Covenant is the eating of the Body of Christ and the drinking of His Blood, the Blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant. I guess that narrows down the numbers of believers in the New Covenant significantly.

No need to confuse the issue. You asked what is the Church and I answered from the Biblical accounts. Your interpretation of what constitutes His body and blood has no bearing on me and is irrelevant to the question.

[continued…]

 

[Churchmouse]

Part 2:

Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit upon the Church, and promised that Holy Spirit would guide them in all Truth. The Catholic Church has never taught error, even though sinful men make up the Church. The Holy Spirit guides this Church in all Truth.

Yes, if the Church is exactly what the Bible states it is—all New Covenant believers—then the Holy Spirit will lead each member into truth and, according to 1 John 2:20-27, His children have an anointing to determine the truth. After all, Christ isn’t going to forsake those that trust in Him. This doesn’t excuse the fact that we’re still human and prone to our human frailties, still we trust in Him to lead us into all truth. I already mentioned purgatory, Marian doctrines and dogmas, and an exclusive priesthood as three errors of the Church. There is no promise that the Church will not suffer error, if you know of one than let me know, but don’t give me 1 Timothy 3:15. It isn’t there either.

The Catholic Church has not introduced erroneous doctrines. Men may embrace errors, but the Magisterial teachings of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, are the Catholic’s “insurance policy” against error.

How do you know for sure that they haven’t? Again, there are no guarantees in Scripture against error and all the verses Catholics say “imply” infallibility do no such thing. I’ve already mentioned three errors regardless of what you choose to believe and they were never taught by Christ or his Apostles.

What about One baptism, One Faith, One Lord? We do not all share the same faith. We do not all embrace the same Truth. Jesus did establish an authority to define Truth, and that is the Magisterium. Others who wish to define “truth” for themselves are not members of the same Church, but are following the doctrines of men.

So, what makes you so sure that you are following the true meaning of One Baptism, One Faith, One Lord? Answer: Because the Church tells me so. What makes your faith the one to follow? Answer: Because the Church tells me so. How do you know if you are truly receiving the faith as Christ and the Apostles taught it? Answer: Because the Church tells me so. I already stated three errors within your Church. Why would I want to follow error? Jesus didn’t establish an authority other then the Apostles, to establish the Truth, and what they taught is found strictly in Scripture. There is no evidence of anything taught by the Apostles other then the tangible, anything else is mere assumption. You pigeon-hole God’s truth, which is available to all men, into something that must be interpreted by a supposed Magisterium, another unbiblical concept, held to be the sole purveyors of God’s truth (no, the gathering in Jerusalem isn’t proof of this). It’s all about choice and you choose to believe this, but as for me, nope, I don’t buy it.

Peace,
CM

 

[Shibboleth]

I think that part of the original question of this was how it related to “Sola Scriptura”, but to tell you the truth I cannot remember now. Some people on this post and others have stated that there are so many micro Churches and the like and who the heck can tell what the number of denominations are…

This is true, but how much of that is related to difference of scriptural interpretation? Many Churches/denominations exist that were started simply because they were in a different location or never really affiliated themselves with another Church. An extraordinary amount of these Churches might share vary similar if not the exact same interpretations of scripture.

Does it really matter, from a Catholic standpoint I would say no. Either you are or you are not…. either you are part of the One True Church or you are not. That is why I am so confused as to why Catholics are so interested in this number. Are you trying to tell someone that you are the one true Church or are you trying to discredit others? Do you need 33,000 denominations to know that you are the True Church, or is it a number that you require to convince others? It seems to me that you should be able to convince people with the greatness of the Catholic Church by itself. If you cannot, why not?

Would things be any different or better if when Luther was excommunicated the church that came in its wake remained the one and only Protestant Church? It seems to me from a Catholic standpoint 1 is as bad as 1,000,000.

And from a standpoint against “Sola Scriptura” what do numbers matter again. If you do not believe that the Holy Spirit will guide people to the correct choice then you might as well put the number at 4 billion or however many people now inhabit the earth - because each person would then be a potential nonsectarian institution within themselves.

 

[Stylite]

I wonder if the “Tomball Cowboy Church” counts as its own denomination or as part of some other group.

 

[Churchmouse]

Stylite:

I wonder if the “Tomball Cowboy Church” counts as its own denomination or as part of some other group.

If they ever decide to affiliate themselves with the Catholic church, maybe one can postulate Roy Rogers and start the beatification process

Happy trails to you ,
CM

 

[dfhauer]

Churchmouse:

The “Apostles” were devoted to “Mary”? Once again, prove it.

\QUOTE]

From Ignatius of Antioch:

For who would not rejoice to behold and to address her who BORE THE TRUE GOD from hers own womb.

And Irenaeus:

… Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless
a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.

And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

…

There are more but a sampling suffices to show that the early church fathers held Mary in extremely high regard and honor. Besides, if we are to be imitators of Christ, and Christ followed the commandments and honored His mother, can we do any less?

Just a thought.

 

[Churchmouse]

Hello df,

From Ignatius of Antioch:

For who would not rejoice to behold and to address her who BORE THE TRUE GOD from hers own womb.

And Irenaeus:

… Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless
a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race.

And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.

…

There are more but a sampling suffices to show that the early church fathers held Mary in extremely high regard and honor. Besides, if we are to be imitators of Christ, and Christ followed the commandments and honored His mother, can we do any less?

Just a thought.

When Panis Angelicas wrote, he/she stated that the Apostles were devoted to Mary. I asked him/her to prove it. Thanks for trying, but these are Church Fathers, not Apostles.

Peace,
CM

 

[dfhauer]

Churchmouse:

Hello df,

When Panis Angelicas wrote, he/she stated that the Apostles were devoted to Mary. I asked him/her to prove it. Thanks for trying, but these are Church Fathers, not Apostles.

Peace,
CM

Quick question,
since Ignatius was taught by the Apostle John, does not his view on Mary stem directly from the apostle himself?

Also, who is John referring to in Revelation as the woman clothed with the sun who gives birth and is then flees into the desert. Sounds vaguely familiar, like the story of Mary, Joseph and Jesus our of Luke, doesn’t it?

Again, just some meandering thoughts.

Pacem,
df

 

[Katholikos]

Churchmouse:

The “Apostles” were devoted to “Mary”? Once again, prove it.

Jesus left his Blessed Mother in the care of St. John, the beloved disciple. How do we know the name of the beloved disciple when Scripture doesn’t tell us? The Church was there – an eyewitness – and her Traditions inform the Scriptures. The beloved disciple himself wrote about this event in his Gospel.

“And from that hour the disciple took her into his home” Jn 19:27.

“When they entered the city they went to the upper room where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James. All these devoted themselves with one accord to prayer, together with some women, and Mary, the Mother of Jesus, and his brothers.” They – Mary and the Apostles – were in the Upper Room, in prayer, for nine days. . . making the first* novena,* Latin for* “nine.”] "And when the time for Pentecost was fulfilled, they were all in one place together. And suddenly there came from the sky a noise like a strong driving wind, and it filled the entire house in which they were. Then there appeared to them tongues as of fire** and they were all*** filled with the Holy Spirit . . . (Acts 2:1-4).

The beloved disciple who had direct responsibility for Mary’s care and protection took her with him when the Apostles gathered, so they all could be together with her, to comfort her, to love her, to share in her care. She was one of the “they.”

So when the Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus Christ, came that Pentecost morning, after Mary and the Apostles had prayed for nine days, He descended upon the Blessed Mother as well as upon the Apostles. Mary was cared for and loved by all of her Son’s disciples. Could they ever do enough for the Mother of their crucified Savior? Pentecost is the birthday of the Church. Mary, Mother of the Church, was there to witness the birth of Her Son’s Church, just as she witnessed the birth of Her Son – the God-Man, Jesus Christ – whom she nurtured Him in her womb for nine months.

Mary, teach me to love you as much as your Son loved you.
And teach others to love you, too. To know you is to love you.

Ave Cor Mariae, Jay

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Part 2:

Yes, if the Church is exactly what the Bible states it is—all New Covenant believers—then the Holy Spirit will lead each member into truth and, according to 1 John 2:20-27, His children have an anointing to determine the truth.

St. John wrote that to one of the early churches after certain heretics had come in teaching something different than Christ’s teachings. St. John was affirming that his “little ones,” (speaking as a bishop to his faithful) knew the Truth as a benefit of their annointing, and didn’t need to be taught from others, basically from others who were teaching against Christ. That exerpt in no way implies that everyone who accepts Christ is infallible in interpretting Scripture!

After all, Christ isn’t going to forsake those that trust in Him.

If you deny me before men, I will deny you before My Heavenly Father.

I already mentioned purgatory, Marian doctrines and dogmas, and an exclusive priesthood as three errors of the Church.

You declaring these as errors doesn’t make it so! If you had ~ and believed in ~ a complete Bible, you’d know that the Apostles and Early Church Fathers believed that praying for the dead was a noble act. It’s in Maccabees, one of the books scrapped by your buddy Martin Luther.
The Apostles were devoted to Mary, as Christ entrusted Her to His beloved Apostle from the Cross, calling Her John’s mother, and calling John the son of Mary. From that day forward, the beloved Apostle took her into his care. That’s Marian devotion. And Jesus requested it be that way.
After Judas betrayed Jesus and committed suicide, the Apostles sought a replacement for him. Two candidates came forth, Matthias and Barnabus. Why was Barnabus excluded? Because there was, already, an exclusive priesthood.

There is no promise that the Church will not suffer error, if you know of one than let me know, but don’t give me 1 Timothy 3:15. It isn’t there either.

yeah, right Churchmouse, calling the church “the pillar and bulwark of truth” still means she can and does err… Actually, I was thinking of when Jesus told His Apostles, the first bishops, “He who hears you, hears Me.” He didn’t say, “He who reads the Bible, hears Me,” though we all do believe that the Bible is the Word of God. He instituted an authority to speak for Him on earth once He was ascended into heaven. If that’s not enough, He gave them the authority to forgive men’s sins, “If you forgive men’s sins they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” He gave to Peter, the keys to the kingdom, and told him whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven and whatever he loosed on earth would be loosed in heaven. Jesus promised that when the Church spoke, heaven would back it up!!!

 

[Katholikos]

Churchmouse,

You’re taking this thread far from its original subject: the number of Protestant denominations and anything related. I’ve already answered one question concerning Mary, which should have been on a separate thread, and you have biblical interpretation, purgatory, the priesthood of all believers, Church authority, and other questions which you’re raising here as well.

As a participant in this forum, I prefer it if the subject of the thread has some relation to its content. If I’m looking for information on purgatory, for example, I wouldn’t expect to find it in a thread on the number of denominations. I don’t read threads if I have no interest in the subject. I simply don’t have time to read them all.

Please, let’s separate your issues and deal with them one at a time. I’ll start a thread on biblical interpretation first, since that’s basic to any Christian discussion, and then open one on purgatory. Feel free to start a thread on any topic at any time and we’ll all chime in.

Peace be with you, Jay

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

I’ve already mentioned three errors regardless of what you choose to believe and they were never taught by Christ or his Apostles.

wrong, wrong, wrong!

So, what makes you so sure that you are following the true meaning of One Baptism, One Faith, One Lord? Answer: Because the Church tells me so.

Nope. A little thing called Sacred Tradition. That, for those of you whose church is somewhere between 500 years and 5 minutes old, means that 2,000 years ago, our Fathers were teaching this stuff!

What makes your faith the one to follow? Answer: Because the Church tells me so.

Nope. A little thing called history. Jesus founded a Church upon the man He chose to lead the faithful. Providentially, it sometimes appears that He chose the weakest of the Apostles to be the leader. Perhaps that was just to illustrate how weak men would still be able to lead His Great Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit!

How do you know if you are truly receiving the faith as Christ and the Apostles taught it? Answer: Because the Church tells me so.

Again, Sacred Tradition and history, neither of which you can claim to back up your beliefs.

I already stated three errors within your Church.

I already refuted all three.

Why would I want to follow error?

Could it be because you’re prideful and refuse to submit to any authority besides yourself?

Jesus didn’t establish an authority other then the Apostles, to establish the Truth, and what they taught is found strictly in Scripture.

Biblically and historically, the Apostles appointed successors. And those successors wrote much on the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. The Bible even says that there’s much more than all the books in the world could contain.

There is no evidence of anything taught by the Apostles other then the tangible, anything else is mere assumption.

Oh, there is plenty of evidence!!! You simply choose to ignore it!!! Christ instituted seven tangible Sacraments. How many of them do you accept?

You pigeon-hole God’s truth, which is available to all men, into something that must be interpreted by a supposed Magisterium, another unbiblical concept, held to be the sole purveyors of God’s truth (no, the gathering in Jerusalem isn’t proof of this).

Even Jesus willed to be subject to authority here on earth. He was submissive to His mere mortal parents, to the Will of His Heavenly Father, and even to the corrupt pharisees and saducees and political leaders of His day. He *exemplified *submission to authority, and He established an authority, to whom Catholics pledge their filial loyalty.

It’s all about choice and you choose to believe this, but as for me, nope, I don’t buy it.

It’s your funeral.

 

[Katholikos]

I opened a new thread called WHAT IS THE BIBLE? HOW SHOULD WE READ IT? (I think that’s what I called it.) That will get us started, Churchmouse.

I’ll open a new thread to address your concerns about purgatory early in the morning.

One thing I learned when I first started studying Catholicism: there’s no question that has not been already asked and answered by the Church many tiimes over in her long, 2,000-year history. But she gladly answers them again for me and for each new inquirer.

Praise and exalt Him forever, Jay

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Katholikos:

Churchmouse,

You’re taking this thread far from its original subject: the number of Protestant denominations and anything related.

You are soooooo right.
Sorry, I added to the hijack as well.

Pax Christi. <><