How many Protestant denominations? 33,820?

[E.E.N.S]

Christ gave Simon Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven (with "whatever you loose on earth…), apparently the early Church fathers believed so too…considering it has been this way for the last 2000 years…

And look at what happens when you don’t have an infallible head…33 thousand different “truths!” Christ never intended for us to be a “book” faith, he intended for us to be a “Church” faith, otherwise why establish one?

And who is to say which books/letters are “truth” and which aren’t? A book cannot claim itself infallible…you MUST HAVE an infallible source! Without it, you CANNOT rest assure that what you are reading is or isn’t true. To do so would be ludicrous…

The Catholic Church was the only church started by Christ, the rest were by man…

Luther himself, shortly after his break away from the Church, was upset that now there were “as many papist as there were heads”…

and if this starting to lean towards sola scriptura, then that idea itself is ludicrous…nowhere is the bible does it even remotely point to that - in fact it does just the opposite!

Just my $0.02…(at work, can’t write too long)

 

[Katholikos]

Churchmouse:

Once again, you’re taking a simple Scriptural quote and adding thoughts not found in the context.

Churchmouse, you’re standing on quicksand. God’s complete revelation is not contained in the Scriptures. The NT Scriptures were not handed to us directly by God, but came out of and through His living, dynamic, believing, teaching Church. The ancient Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches do not rely on Scripture Alone (Sola Scriptura) for their understanding of Christianity, and neither should you. Because SS is a false doctrine.

The Bible is not a continuous book but a collection of writings. It is a library of many different books. It does not claim to be a textbook in Christianity. It does not claim to contain everything that is necessary for man to know concerning salvation. It does not contain everything that occurred in early Christianity. It doesn’t even contain everything that Christ said and did, as John’s Gospel plainly tells us (twice).

***Jesus didn’t leave us a book; he left us a Church. The book came out of the Church. ***

You and other Protestants are trying to make the Bible into something that it was never intended to be – a textbook in Christianity.

The letters (by Sts. Peter, John, Paul, James, Jude) were written by one Catholic to another or to local Churches the author(s) had founded that were part of the Universal (Catholic) Church. The letters were written in response to particular problems that had developed in those specific communities. The Gospels – Matthew, Mark, and John, were not specifically addressed; and Luke/Acts was written to a man named Theophilus. Acts is a history of the early Church, though it is not history as we would define it today. Revelation is written in apocalyptic code to a Church suffering the persecutions of Domitian.

You may try to make an instruction book out of the Bible, but that model won’t stand the test of logic and has deceived mankind for the last 487 years. Until you figure out what the Bible is and why it was written, and then collected, canonized, and taught to Catholics, you’ll continue to make these mistakes in understanding it.

You cannot ‘prove’ that the 27 books of the NT, no more and no less, are the inspired Word of God. The Bible does not stand alone as its own witness. You cannot produce an inspired, God-given list of the books that belong in the Bible. You can only accept the witness of the Catholic Church that these things are true.

Regarding Mary, the Church was there. Were you?

I don’t care to respond to these sorts of issues on this thread, so I won’t. We have a new Bible thread for that purpose. Thanks.

Oremus pro invicem, Jay

 

[Churchmouse]

Jay,

I guess the only way we can see the fallacy of Sola Ecclesia is by showing how various beliefs are assumed by the Catholic faithful. The strawman caricatures regarding Sola Scriptura, the claims that the Catholic church “gave” us the Bible, that “deceiving” Bible you claim and the canonical issues involved (coupled by bringing in the Eastern Orthodox who claim a different canon), your assumption that God needed the Church for the canon to exist, the Marian doctrines, purgatory and so on. I don’t have the time to deal with everything at one time, nor do I want to spread myself thin on this forum, but I’ll pick something from your other threads and deal with it. Gotta run some errands, but I’ll be back to do that this evening.

Peace,
CM

 

[Cindy]

For anyone who might be interested, and excellent resource is the book Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought, by Luigi Gambero, published by Ignatius Press.

God bless!

 

[E.E.N.S]

Katholikos:

Churchmouse, you’re standing on quicksand. God’s complete revelation is not contained in the Scriptures. The NT Scriptures were not handed to us directly by God, but came out of and through His living, dynamic, believing, teaching Church. The ancient Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches do not rely on Scripture Alone (Sola Scriptura) for their understanding of Christianity, and neither should you. Because SS is a false doctrine.

The Bible is not a continuous book but a collection of writings. It is a library of many different books. It does not claim to be a textbook in Christianity. It does not claim to contain everything that is necessary for man to know concerning salvation. It does not contain everything that occurred in early Christianity. It doesn’t even contain everything that Christ said and did, as John’s Gospel plainly tells us (twice).

***Jesus didn’t leave us a book; he left us a Church. The book came out of the Church. ***

You and other Protestants are trying to make the Bible into something that it was never intended to be – a textbook in Christianity.

The letters (by Sts. Peter, John, Paul, James, Jude) were written by one Catholic to another or to local Churches the author(s) had founded that were part of the Universal (Catholic) Church. The letters were written in response to particular problems that had developed in those specific communities. The Gospels – Matthew, Mark, and John, were not specifically addressed; and Luke/Acts was written to a man named Theophilus. Acts is a history of the early Church, though it is not history as we would define it today. Revelation is written in apocalyptic code to a Church suffering the persecutions of Domitian.

You may try to make an instruction book out of the Bible, but that model won’t stand the test of logic and has deceived mankind for the last 487 years. Until you figure out what the Bible is and why it was written, and then collected, canonized, and taught to Catholics, you’ll continue to make these mistakes in understanding it.

You cannot ‘prove’ that the 27 books of the NT, no more and no less, are the inspired Word of God. The Bible does not stand alone as its own witness. You cannot produce an inspired, God-given list of the books that belong in the Bible. You can only accept the witness of the Catholic Church that these things are true.

Regarding Mary, the Church was there. Were you?

I don’t care to respond to these sorts of issues on this thread, so I won’t. We have a new Bible thread for that purpose. Thanks.

Oremus pro invicem, Jay

Very well said Jay!

 

[latisha1903]

Christ Jesus… is the founder of my Church…

i am not catholic, protestant, jew nor gentile, and not part of a denomination…

[going to cause some controversy, but oh well i’m going to put what i know and believe]

I am Christian, who attends services at a local Church of Christ [not ICoC, UCC, or anything connected to the Boston Movement or Campbelites…a misconception many have about the Church]

Because it would take me forever to post about the CoC…links are provided…that defend the faith.[these are not creeds, or ‘official documents’ these are simply written by members of the Church, providing information on the Church…like articles…insigh] I must go eat now…

fifthwardcoc.org/ [my uncle’s Church…just a good website]
wecaretracts.homestead.com/T23.html
mclishchurchofchrist.com/nc1.htm
housetohouse.com/hth/archives/v8n6/v8n6p7a.htm#Facts%20about%20the%20New%20Testament%20Church
housetohouse.com/hth/bib…uestion0022.htm

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Katholikos:

Much obliged, Neil. You prolly noticed one of the sites giving the # as 22 is the Melkite site. You might want to make sure they get the word also.

Jay,

That site is run by a very nice Melkite Catholic lady in California who has gathered together a great deal of info - but it is an “unofficial” site . But, I have to admit I’m not sure at the moment whether we do any more accurately at our official site - so I dare not be too pompous .

I will work on trying to get the other updated. It’s a bit of a cause with me, not sure why; I think it’s because the Georgians don’t really have any voice to speak for them. Always did like underdogs.

Many years,

Neil

 

[YinYangMom]

Went looking around the boards to find an appropriate place to share this CNN News story:

Protestant Majority Disappearing in U.S.
By RACHEL ZOLL

**The United States will no longer be a majority Protestant nation in years to come, due to a precipitous decline in affiliation with many Protestant churches, a new survey has found. **

For the complete story please go to:
cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?oldflok=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20040720%2F1005660096.htm&sc=1110&flok=NW_5-L1

I had wondered what percentage of the US was Catholic, and finally found something: "The Roman Catholic population has remained relatively stable over the period, making up about 25 percent of the U.S. population. "

Is anyone else surprised by this number?? I expected it to be in the 40% range…no wonder politically it’s so difficult to get the government.

JPII’s call for Evangelization is right on the money…now does seem to be the time people are questioning their beliefes. According to this article it seems many are leaving their ‘churches’ to practice individual “Christianity”.

Any thoughts on the article?

 

[RedGolum]

Shibboleth:

• Catholicism: Had their problems in the past but it is a noble Church that has made some tremendous reforms.
• Calvinist Churches: I have some disagreements with their view of salvation, but overall they are not doing so badly.
• Anabaptists: I would prefer to talk to them more about how I should frame my garage than on theological issues.
• Pentecostals: Holy smokes!!! What in the world?
• Fundamentalists: Thanks for sharing; I think I will go now.
• Methodists: Whatever…
• Karl Keating: Great Insightful leader
• Jimmy Akin: very intelligent man that I can learn a great deal from
• Srkbdk and Marie: have excellent posts and both make me want to be a better Christian
• Katholikos: anger leads to the dark side of the force, but I love him as a brother

LOL!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I checked Barrett’s two-volume encyclopedia at the library (2002 edition). It is interesting to note that for every country, **Barrett lists only one Roman Catholic denomination. **

 

[Poisson]

On the subject of the number of protestant denominations…
Do “Non-Denominational” churches count as one all combined or do they count as thousands of individual denominations.
Personally I think “Non-Denominational” is an oxymoron, each is it’s own denomination.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Poisson:

On the subject of the number of protestant denominations…
Do “Non-Denominational” churches count as one all combined or do they count as thousands of individual denominations.
Personally I think “Non-Denominational” is an oxymoron, each is it’s own denomination.

Personally who cares how many denominations are out there. The question is how we will enter into the kingdom? Jesus will not ask us what denomination are we. Jesus has enough work counting the hairs on our head. The last thing He wants to do is count denominations. ,

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Personally who cares how many denominations are out there.

One who is searching for a church to call his own might consider it. It relates to one’s view of ecclesiology and which epistemological principle tends toward unity or not.

Protestant author J. Leslie Dunstan, in his book *Protestantism, *wrote the following:

Protestantism is one of the three main divisions of the universal Christian Church, which together with the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches make up one world-wide religion. Protestantism is the most recent of the developments within Christianity, having a relatively short history of slightly more than four centuries; the other two branches of the faith have histories going back to the earliest days of the Christian era. Moreover, compared to the unity which characterizes those other branches, Protestantism is divided within itself among hundreds of separate organizations, some of which deny all relationship to others. The many denominations and sects have differing beliefs and carry on a variety of practices, which give them the appearance of being distinct from one another. (p. 9)

When assessing the principles of Protestantism and their obvious tendency toward disunity, one might re-consider those principles as to whether they are truly of divine origin.

 

[Poisson]

SPOKENWORD:

Personally who cares how many denominations are out there. The question is how we will enter into the kingdom? Jesus will not ask us what denomination are we. Jesus has enough work counting the hairs on our head. The last thing He wants to do is count denominations. ,

He also wants us to be united in our faith. We got a long way to go.

 

[Spiri220]

If the Catholic Church is smugly One, how do you explain the Sedevacanists, the Feeneyites and especially the SSPX’ers that I see in the next County? The SSPX folks have their own Church and Academy (K-12) down the street from the Diocesan Catholic Church, and have nothing to do with each other - looks pretty Protestant to me. They have members move here from all over the Country.

I have to agree with the above poster who points out that the majority of Catholics appear to adopt a “cafeteria” mentality as opposed to leaving, and the Church ignores this to facilitate the façade of “One Church”.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Spiri220,

SSPX folks have their own Church and Academy (K-12) down the street from the Diocesan Catholic Church, and have nothing to do with each other - looks pretty Protestant to me.

You might note that the SSPX/Sedavacanists, etc., do not appear in the *Official Catholic Directory. *In short, they are no more part of the Catholic Church than the Greek Orthodox.

The oneness of the Catholic Church is not (nor has it ever been) a unity among the *Taught *Church, but is a single Teaching Church.

What you are doing is comparing apples to oranges. Let’s instead compare apples to apples, that is, Teaching Church to Teaching Church. Is there one Lutheran or Presbyterian Teaching Church, for example? Do the Missouri Synod Lutherans have the same ecclesiastical laws and doctrine (whether the *Taught *Church believe it or not) as those within the Lutheran World Federation?

**Webster defines a denomination as “a religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.” **

The Catholic Church, despite dissention among the Taught Church, is **a single ***Teaching Church *which truly is a “religious organization uniting local congregations in a single legal and administrative body.” It’s no “facade” that the Catholic Church, unlike the gazillion non-Catholic denominations, truly is ONE legal and administrative body.

Comparatively, the U.S. is a single legal and administrative body, uniting the State governments. Not every U.S. citizen agrees with their government or with each other, right? Yet we are still ONE nation, having some members who are law abiding, and some who are criminals. The States are BOUND to Federal law, and do not merely adopt the “suggestions” of U.S. law voluntarily, right? If a State should decide to succeed from the Union by rejecting the authority of U.S. law (like the SSPX have from Catholicism), then they are no longer part of the U.S., right? Yet, criminals do indeed remain U.S. citizens even though they disobey U.S. law. The existence of criminals within the U.S. does not then mean the U.S. is no longer ONE nation.

Is there a non-Catholic denomination that can be truly called “a single legal and administrative body?” If so, isn’t it commonly at the parish level where this exists for Protestantism? If it is true that Baptists parishes, for example, are a “law unto itself” as asserted by Baptist scholars, then doesn’t that mean that by Webster’s definition of denomination, that every Baptist parish is it’s own denomination? That really means that strictly looking at the *Teaching *Baptists Church, there are thousand upon thousand of denominations just within the Baptist tradition, right?

 

[Spiri220]

So, not including these folks in the ***Official Directory ***solves the problem? Utter nonsense. They consider themselves to be Catholic. Face it, you’ve even got splinter groups that elect their own Popes.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

So, not including these folks in the ***Official Directory ***solves the problem? Utter nonsense.

Obviously, my analogy of one U.S. nation just zoomed right past you.

How many Protestant **religious organizations are there which unite local congregations in a single legal and administrative body? **Compare that number to the ONE Catholic Church. SSPX and the Sedavacanists priest are not incardinatd in the Catholic Church, so whether you count them or not, they have no faculties within the Catholic Church, so they really go by their own authority (like Protestants, and orthodox).

Let’s say a group in Montana simply insists that Pres. Bush is not the lawful president, but that Pres. Gore is. Does that really mean there are TWO U.S. governments, one led by Gore and one led by Bush? Your muddled understanding of sedevacanism isn’t convincing anybody that they are in any way part of the ONE Catholic Church.

Check for yourself. See David Barrett’s two-volume encyclopedia and tell me how many Catholic Church “denominations” he lists of the U.S. You’ll find that it is ONE. In fact if you look at every country, he lists only ONE Roman Catholic Church for each country.

Next, compare that to Protestantism. According to Baptist scholar, the late William B. Lipphard, former president of the Associated Church Press, and twenty-year editor of the Baptist publication Missions Magazine, “every Baptist parish is a law unto itself.” Given Webster’s definition of “denomination,” it seems every Baptist parish is it’s own “denomination,” right? That’s a heck of a lot of “denominations” no? I’d say that 30,000 is a tragically LOW estimate given Webster’s definition of denomination, yet the Catholic Church remains at JUST ONE.

Perhaps Protestant author J. Leslie Dunstan can explain it better for you … from his book Protestantism:

Protestantism is one of the three main divisions of the universal Christian Church, which together with the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches make up one world-wide religion. Protestantism is the most recent of the developments within Christianity, having a relatively short history of slightly more than four centuries; the other two branches of the faith have histories going back to the earliest days of the Christian era. Moreover, compared to the unity which characterizes those other branches, Protestantism is divided within itself among hundreds of separate organizations, some of which deny all relationship to others. The many denominations and sects have differing beliefs and carry on a variety of practices, which give them the appearance of being distinct from one another.

(*Protestantism, *by J. Leslie Dunstan, (New York: George Braziller, 1962), p. 9)