How much can you trust psychology?

[AlanFromWichita]

Now I would like to ask you something frankly,just your experience,I mean.
Have you ever experienced that when you are mentally unhealthy(to put it somehow) religion,spiritual gluttony,and kind of difficult and complicated,intrincated readings/quests can become an obsession and make you worse?
I am not saying to stay away from God,nor prayer nor anything of the sort.

I wouldn’t say it made it worse, but poor spiritual training through most of my life (as an active Catholic no less) made it very confusing to reconcile many things, in particular what we at the parish taught and what we, in the parish leadership, did. And that was a major trigger, as my whole episode kicked off with a very extremely scary event in the cathedral, across the parking lot where I had been doing volunteer data entry into the bishop’s database for the synod. I was taking thousands of “private confessions,” the first time the laity were formally asked for opinions about the church, and the ones they choose anonymously I ended up helping enter a few thousand of them. I’ll tell you, process a few thousand strong opinions on something important to you, through your mind and out your fingers, and it can change the way one looks at the church.

As far as obsession, I don’t know about the technical term, but I was very, very intent on studying philosophy, science, religion, and others, and other people associated my yearning for religious connection with my symptoms. So from the outside, they thought that I was so obsessed over religion that it was causing the problems. My own psychiatrist recommended I cut out coming here and doing other religious things above and beyond what’s required.

But I knew that somewhere, were answers, and I continued to seek them, sometimes in the most bizarre of ways. I have seen some pretty bizarre things, though. Like I was in the little organ loft because I was playing pipe organ at St. Anthony, and at one point during Mass, I looked over and the figure on the crucifix was as a serpent, and was moving. I hid down behind the little guard rail, in kind of a air-raid position (are you old enough to remember those?) and at times lying on my side, and I only got up to play songs and then got back on the floor. I didn’t see a lot of significance to it, except that after Mass I saw my ex-boss I hadn’t seen in years, who happens to be the brother of the deceased beloved priest that was our diocese exorcist. So I thought it was possible that Ken’s presence in the audience may have contributed, but it’s not particularly useful to actually assume there was a connection. I just thought it was interesting.

So no, the religious symbols, especially the scary ones, provided for some serious great theater, the likes of which I’ve never seen on the big screen although some movies did a pretty good job of showing what it was like – like A Beautiful Mind. I don’t say they made things worse; I say they were on my path to healing, whoever put them there. In and of themselves, I don’t think they had any power except as an agent seed to plant in my mind that would eventually grow into a sort of healing complex.

I hope I answered the question.

Alan

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

If they haven’t been there then they just cannot understand it. My point was that I do have a relationship with God. When a person hasn’t been through an actual depression, or some other mental illness, then they debunk it by saying I don’t pray enough, that I just hafta believe. That it is the unseen enemy and it must be that demon underneath every bush.

Indeed. If you ask me, such people are the ones really living in a fantasy thinking that the devil or some malevolent spiritual force is the cause when really, the problem is people really have a hard time being happy with their life (and at times for good reasons).

Honestly, every time I hear people say that the best cure for anybody’s sadness is something along the lines of a three hour Rosary, I wonder if they’re still living in 1752. They don’t care to hear about what that person’s been through. They don’t try to empathize or sympathize. They all just say ‘pray, pray, pray.’ Man, people who just rely on their spiritual emotions have no idea on not just how lucky they are that they’ve got those consolations but also how dense it seems to make them towards what causes people to be depressed.

It’s like it would kill them to actually come with a more logical and relevant solution. At best, it’s like a child trying to comprehend the problems of someone making ends meet. At worst, it’s like an old crone/geezer who refuses to see any problems because they’ve lived a life where they were always surrounded by kindred spirits, never knowing what it’s like to be one of your own in a social environment that’s not entirely friendly.

My point was, that I have no self-esteem. I don’t like the term, either, but it is the one they use today. I am supposed to be last, I am supposed to be servant of all, but at the same time, that doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t know I have worth in God’s eyes or in your eyes (we are His hands and feet afterall!). I know He loves me, but, I feel like a disappointment to him, like I am unaffective, and unlovable to people because of so many shortcomings. I have depression. I see a therapist, I see a psychiatrist, and I take medicine. Is it helping? So far not what I thought it would do or what it helped me with last time.

That was kind of my point with the Incredibles quote. Saying that “God loves you.” kinda loses its effect when you think about the whole ‘universal and unconditional’ part. It’s like it hasn’t occurred to them that it also applies to the people who make lifting up one’s spirits… difficult.

If you don’t think there is a spiritual solution to problems, then your “Lost Wanderer” title is a good one because I don’t know why you’re even on a religion-based forum except to bash those who actually believe in what they are here for.

Struck a nerve I see. Look I don’t care if your spiritual solution ends up being your medicine.The point is, it’s not medicine for everybody and I think it’s better for the spiritual types to swallow some humility.

You tell me what it means, then, when a person tells people who are religious and spiritual – at least spiritual wannabee, implies impatience at those who look for mystical solutions, how that isn’t a general dismissal of the entire concept of religion – which is a subset of spirituality which follows the laws of mysticism? What are we here for, to organize a military uprising?

Wow, I make a simple statement about how spiritual wannabee solutions have flaws that don’t make them compatible to some people and you talk of military uprising.

I think you’re giving this forum too much credit if you think everyone on here is looking for a ‘mystical solution’. The Church is just as much a body governed by reason as it is by faith. I have just as much a right to question those whose solutions seek to tip that balance.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Struck a nerve I see. Look I don’t care if your spiritual solution ends up being your medicine.The point is, it’s not medicine for everybody and I think it’s better for the spiritual types to swallow some humility.

The entire reason the Church exists is to help us become loving like Jesus. That’s mystical theology, and gives rise to everything else in the Church. Our Church is founded upon the Mystical Body of Christ, not to the maintenance of buildings.

Mysticism isn’t some magical wand you can swish around. Mysticism is truth about human nature, and you may ignore it at your peril, but honestly the reason a lot of people are messed up is they may have had a mystical experience but no SD to guide them.

Wow, I make a simple statement about how spiritual wannabee solutions have flaws that don’t make them compatible to some people and you talk of military uprising.

Oh, no. It was not a simple statement. It was a gross characterization of anybody on this forum who is actually here trying to become holy.
LW:

And as always, the self-proclaimed spiritual types of CAF recommend a magical ‘spiritual’ solution.

Good God, just what is it that you people have against wanting something more tangible?

Use the word “magic” and “spiritual” in the same sentence. What do you think they both mean, because you are mixing terms here.

You are setting up a straw man and knocking it down, by putting down religion in general.

Also, by saying that prayer and contemplation, the foundation of mystics, is not “tangible” means you are missing out on something really great, my friend.

I think you’re giving this forum too much credit if you think everyone on here is looking for a ‘mystical solution’. The Church is just as much a body governed by reason as it is by faith. I have just as much a right to question those whose solutions seek to tip that balance.

I didn’t say everybody on here is looking for a mystical solution. They aren’t here looking for gravational solutions either, and yet they are under the law of gravity all the same. We all breathe air, we all take in water, we all fall toward the earth, and we all have hearts that operate in mystical ways. (Not MAGICAL ways. Gag me and go new age if you want to see that.)

Alan

 

[mamaslo]

Alan, what I got from LWs post was that he was using a little sarcasm when he used the word “magical”. It doesn’t translate well on a forum.

LW,
Be careful though not to judge those who just cannot understand depression and what the needs of the depressed are.

In general, folks are just not able to understand. They are not able to put themselves in a depressed person’s shoes and thus wouldn’t even fathom to think the way I do. That is why I find companionship and compassion in a forum for people like me. I can say it how I see it, and they somehow just know what I mean when I speak of the dark hole that is inside me.

It really isn’t spiritual in nature but it does affect my spiritual life. It is a cross, that I have to carry, and maybe one day I will get a different one maybe I will be resurrected out of this tomb, but it does give me understanding and compassion when I see others just like me. The joy that I do get from time to time on my good days is being able to empathize with those I see are like me.

Believe it or not, I think you both are on the same side of the fence.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Alan, what I got from LWs post was that he was using a little sarcasm when he used the word “magical”. It doesn’t translate well on a forum.

Sorry. I’ve been accused of saying “new age” stuff as if it were kryptonite. Knee jerk perhaps.

It really isn’t spiritual in nature but it does affect my spiritual life. It is a cross, that I have to carry, and maybe one day I will get a different one maybe I will be resurrected out of this tomb, but it does give me understanding and compassion when I see others just like me. The joy that I do get from time to time on my good days is being able to empathize with those I see are like me.

Believe it or not, I think you both are on the same side of the fence.

Here’s my beef. Everything is spiritual in nature, whereas, to use philosophical terminology, the physical things of this world are “accidents” in their current form. You can choose not to pursue learning about that, but the spirit world is real, and drives the material world. So to close your eyes to it is to dance on its strings.

Where are the strings? Ask the scientists. They are currently saying that to make the math work on their newest string theory discoveries, they need 7 dimensions, in addition to the three space and one time we live in. No honest physicist can tell me that nothing significant is going on in any of those 7 dimensions, because if so they wouldn’t have needed it for their math. It’s straightforward conclusion that if there are 7 dimensions our limited little brains cannot comprehend but we know they are there; what’s to say that spirituality does not operate through one or more of those dimensions? That’s why we have so-called “miracle healing,” which is not a miracle at all to a mystic but a way of life.

I am no stranger to depression. I was so depressed as part of my disability, that I wallowed on a mattress in the attic 23/7 for several months, holding my head every moment I was awake, wishing to die because it seemed that’s the only thing that would make it stop – the thoughts that were constantly racing through my head, nearly maddening. Then I lost the mattress when my house burned down. It burned down on Good Friday, 2005. Our pastor and the associate both came out to watch and to talk to the kids. I played joyful hymns on the organ at Sunday’s Mass, kind of like this: Alleluia! Alleluia! Let the Holy Anthem Rise! (Thank you. Thank you veddy mush. )

I’m telling you that to ignore the spiritual component of yourself, is just as foolish as to ignore the psychological. More so, for those with faith. I sense a number of spirits in your own writing, but I don’t care to name them because they’re yours, not mine.

Anyone who doesn’t believe in mysticism, by consequence, doesn’t believe spirits (including the Holy Spirit) have any influence over our lives.

Alan

 

[Jesusismyfriend]

Self respect and acceptance for the person God made you to be, if the sin wasn’t there, is important. Self esteem to the point of “self love,” or as the psych doctors call it “narcicism” is dangerous. That’s just another word for pride.

 

[mamaslo]

Alan, I did not say i didn’t believe in the spiritual realm nor did I say I do not look at my own spiritual condition.

What I am saying is that my condition is not necessarily attached to some demon. I do believe that Angels sing with us at Mass or other times. (I have heard it). But I also believe that Jesus overcame sin and death…he crushed the serpent’s head too. So I do not walk around worried about that part.

What I do worry about is how I treat people, how I percieve myself, how I am treated actually is something I am just learning about…because I do have dignity. But because my brain has misfiring synapses it doesn’t mean it is a direct result of the condition of my soul. It isn’t because of sin that I committed or some dark spiritual door I opened.

Actually, the situational part of my depression is due to the lack of support we have in a situation where I was following the Church’s teaching and the will of God. but the other person in volved did not see it that way and maybe the spiritual aspect was a result of a sin I committed nearly 20 years ago. Now the results…no guidance from the church, nor here, nor hearing the voice of God in the situation. Very little support…

The dysthymia, may have been caused by the sin of someone else…but I am left to forgive and to live with the results.

So I do see the spiritual component but because my synapses do not fire properly for whatever reason…does not make it because evil is trying to take me down nor is it necessarily because God is trying to teach me to pray…(of course He always does that, but not always the way those who do not go through depression try to tell me to do).

Do I believe the enemy of our souls would or could try to make a person depressed etc…yes, but not just because my brain isn’t working like a non depressed persons.

I guess as we go, we will get to know each others views.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Self respect and acceptance for the person God made you to be, if the sin wasn’t there, is important. Self esteem to the point of “self love,” or as the psych doctors call it “narcicism” is dangerous. That’s just another word for pride.

I agree with you here, except just for me I want to make it that self-love and naricissism aren’t just two amounts of the same thing. I think they are different flavors, or colors. They both have to do with view of self, but they require different fundamental concepts to support.

Alan

 

[BenedictFTW]

I studied psychology many years ago. One of the things I remember is that an experiment was carried out on how psychoanalysis affected depression/depressive patients. A large group were selected and divided into three mini-groups; one of these mini-groups was given psychoanalysis; one placebos (ie pretend medicine) and the other mini-group were given no treatment at all. It was found that all patients recovered from their depression at the same rate. I.e. psychology is only in its infancy!

 

[AlanFromWichita]

What I am saying is that my condition is not necessarily attached to some demon. I do believe that Angels sing with us at Mass or other times. (I have heard it). But I also believe that Jesus overcame sin and death…he crushed the serpent’s head too. So I do not walk around worried about that part.

You don’t have to look at it as demons. You can use more clinical language. To me, a “demon” is simply an intent or inclination to think a certain way. I don’t know how they work out in la la land or wherever, but it seems to work for my engineering model. I’m in favor of a lot of what people who like Jung say, in general, as far as my thinking from there.

I am glad you don’t worry about sin. That’s one thing Jesus didn’t want us to have to do, and I’m glad you’re able to accept that gift.

What I do worry about is how I treat people, how I percieve myself, how I am treated actually is something I am just learning about…because I do have dignity. But because my brain has misfiring synapses it doesn’t mean it is a direct result of the condition of my soul. It isn’t because of sin that I committed or some dark spiritual door I opened.

I believe we are souls, with spirit and body (mind). I believe we are made in the image of God, and are adopted children into His family. That means we are royalty, if we can accept, or access it through prayer, meditation, psychological counseling, etc.

So to me, the brain is just one component of the soul The spirit side of the soul is the one I am most interested in, because it is most powerful and can be trained to assist, rather than distract, the other. Spirits communicate in ways that don’t necessarily manifest as words. They can do it through your body language, for example.

This is in line with the fact that the heart has a pretty good electromagnetic field, as I’m told is 5000 more powerful magnetic field from the heart as from the brain. People in near proximity actually influence each others’ hearts directly, and can change their waveform. And the waveform can be read to the point they can recognize love (smooth), anxiety (jagged) and other basic emotions, on the EKG.

Actually, the situational part of my depression is due to the lack of support we have in a situation where I was following the Church’s teaching and the will of God. but the other person in volved did not see it that way and maybe the spiritual aspect was a result of a sin I committed nearly 20 years ago. Now the results…no guidance from the church, nor here, nor hearing the voice of God in the situation. Very little support…

Have you ever heard of a spiritual director? I was a 42 year old cradle Catholic when I first heard of one, and my mental/spiritual healing started within minutes of my first meeting. Not all of them are that good, but this one was. He changed my life toward a path of healing that now has gotten me to the finish line, 11 years later. (Not to leave out the help from many loving and patient sources such as my family and friends and my incredibly cool psychiatrist who has been with me the whole time.)

The Church actually has the resources to give guidance in these areas, and honestly it annoys me that not every single Catholic is told about it from the pulpit. Did you ever hear a priest give a homily on how to become contemplative, or whom to call for deeper personal help with spirituality? They are missing a great opportunity to “feed the sheep” as Jesus told Peter to do, but not just spiritual “milk” but solid food, to use terms from St. Paul.

The dysthymia, may have been caused by the sin of someone else…but I am left to forgive and to live with the results.

There is no true way of knowing the cause, because a controlled experiment cannot be performed. To me, it simply is what it is without regard to the source. I may of course speculate but the source is not as important as the result, because the result is here and now. As long as we regret the past, we allow the past to soak good energy from us and turn it to waste.

So I do see the spiritual component but because my synapses do not fire properly for whatever reason…does not make it because evil is trying to take me down nor is it necessarily because God is trying to teach me to pray…(of course He always does that, but not always the way those who do not go through depression try to tell me to do).

The only real prayer that’s been effective in doing a large chunk of my own healing, is completely silent. It’s called Contemplative prayer. Along with science and religion for thousands of years in the east and west both, this is one very powerful way to allow God to heal you. Just saying a million times, “God, I love you, please heal me if you will.” That’s kind of the shot-in-the-dark approach, and basically makes the clock go around. Not saying that kind of prayer isn’t answered, but I don’t place much stock in it. If you say it once in faith and really believe it, that’s all you can do as far as petition.

Do I believe the enemy of our souls would or could try to make a person depressed etc…yes, but not just because my brain isn’t working like a non depressed persons.

I guess as we go, we will get to know each others views.

I hope so. I want you to be able to pick any good ideas from me that you can. It’s my life’s mission, is to offer whatever I have been given, or even produced, for whomever can use it.

Alan

 

[mamaslo]

BTW, Alan, I did not say I do not worry about sin.

It is actually neat to talk to you. Thank you for the conversation.

To respond to your comment about sermons about deeper and more contemplative ways to pray, many are just not ready for that. Our parish has a contemplative prayer group, but many are really not interested at this time. We have a deacon who backs it up, and I really do look forward to his homilies but I have heard complaints that they are too deep and over the heads of many.

I know I get tired of not being able to engage on a deeper level with others…I get told I am too deep. It is disappointing and non-affirming. But part of my journey is to learn to love my neighbor as they are. that deals with simplicity and not necessarily affirmation for my intensity.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

BTW, Alan, I did not say I do not worry about sin.

It is actually neat to talk to you. Thank you for the conversation.

To respond to your comment about sermons about deeper and more contemplative ways to pray, many are just not ready for that. Our parish has a contemplative prayer group, but many are really not interested at this time. We have a deacon who backs it up, and I really do look forward to his homilies but I have heard complaints that they are too deep and over the heads of many.

That’s because everything we’re taught up to the point when we decide to go ahead and take the plunge, conditions our mind to think oppositely. From the time we’re babies, we’re taught dualistically. This is the calculus view of the world where we artificially break Creation into a million little pieces (by naming them) so we can talk about them as if they were distinct entities. but you can’t analyze the behavior of a fish without knowing about its water. So the two are inseparable in “real life” but we make the distinction because it’s how we human communicate.

But then we have everybody and everything all divided up, and Jesus tells us we’re all one Body, on Spirit. Well if you really follow that through it is absolutely amazing. Even logically following it through, can gain you consolations if not spiritual birth and renewal. Some people like to use logic, others talk about feelings. I’m trying to learn how to span both groups so I can have meaningful conversation with anybody.

I know I get tired of not being able to engage on a deeper level with others…I get told I am too deep. It is disappointing and non-affirming. But part of my journey is to learn to love my neighbor as they are. that deals with simplicity and not necessarily affirmation for my intensity.

People aren’t taught HOW to think, they are taught WHAT to think. So their imagination is limited by the norms society places on us – we even have special “hate crimes” where we are punished for how we are thinking, not just for how we behave!!

Jesus didn’t come to be our thought police, like you’d think from the shallow people who never get more intimate with the Bible than its literal meaning – primarily because they think everybody should have to agree on the literal meaning. That inclination is straight from hell, because people spend their entire lives arguing about whether the earth was created in six literal 24 hour day, which is a stupid question anyway and irrelevant to anything. And yet they focus energy into it. They miss the deeper, more profound, and actually transformational aspect of the Scripture entirely.

Remember Luke 10:21:
At that very moment he rejoiced [in] the holy Spirit and said, “I give you praise, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for although you have hidden these things from the wise and the learned you have revealed them to the childlike. Yes, Father, such has been your gracious will.

You and I both like to go deep, and like human beings and not robotic fear-trained scholars of the shallow. Let’s root this thing out, and not by trying to outspeak or outreason each other. I am also enjoying this conversation.

Alan

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Mysticism isn’t some magical wand you can swish around. Mysticism is truth about human nature, and you may ignore it at your peril, but honestly the reason a lot of people are messed up is they may have had a mystical experience but no SD to guide them.

Mystical experience? You think my 10+ years of being mocked, criticized, made the villain, and pretty much told that I’m some kind of socially inept monster is a ‘mystical experience’?

There’s nothing mystical about that. There are no visions of angels. Just real people, real jerks and jerkettes, who think they’re better than you and think life all about attitude and how many people you step on.

That’s not mystical. That’s just reality. Reality’s something I’d call anything BUT mystical.

Oh, no. It was not a simple statement. It was a gross characterization of anybody on this forum who is actually here trying to become holy.

Did you even read who I was quoting? It wasn’t even you. Honestly, it’s more logical to actually ask a person what’s troubling them rather than casually dismissing it as a spiritual illness that a few decades of the Rosary can cure.

Oh but no, I despise religion all because I make that little proposal.

Use the word “magic” and “spiritual” in the same sentence. What do you think they both mean, because you are mixing terms here.

You are setting up a straw man and knocking it down, by putting down religion in general.

Please explain to me then, if all a priest needs to counsel someone is a few prescriptions of prayers and novenas, why then should he even need to be human? Why can he not simply be replaced by an automated prayer-prescription machine?

Also, by saying that prayer and contemplation, the foundation of mystics, is not “tangible” means you are missing out on something really great, my friend.

Right, sure. Ask for something a little bit more than what could more less still be seen as talking to myself and I’m treated like an atheist.

You don’t need to be a non-believer to find sitting in a room with your hands clasped insufficient.

I didn’t say everybody on here is looking for a mystical solution. They aren’t here looking for gravational solutions either, and yet they are under the law of gravity all the same. We all breathe air, we all take in water, we all fall toward the earth, and we all have hearts that operate in mystical ways. (Not MAGICAL ways. Gag me and go new age if you want to see that.)

I don’t even know half of what you’re babbling about anymore. I make a simple criticism of an overly-simplified response and you treat me like I’m Richard Dawkins.

 

[GEddie]

LW:

my codolences in your trials, you and I are on the same page.

“Jerkette” — I love it!!! I am going to have to steal it.



God Bless, ICXC NIKA

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Mystical experience? You think my 10+ years of being mocked, criticized, made the villain, and pretty much told that I’m some kind of socially inept monster is a ‘mystical experience’?

There’s nothing mystical about that. There are no visions of angels. Just real people, real jerks and jerkettes, who think they’re better than you and think life all about attitude and how many people you step on.

Again, mysticism is a set of laws by which humans are made to operate by design. It’s not about seeing a nice little happy vision from time to time. And if you ever read about contemplative purgation in Dark Night of the Soul and elsewhere, you’d see that this kind of stuff IS a mystical experience. And my purgatory/hell was 11 years, so nyah. And yes it was hell if you want to compare notes let’s have at it.

Maybe you should listen to the advice of someone who’s been where you are and was healed? Naaahhhh… bad idea, obviously.

That’s not mystical. That’s just reality. Reality’s something I’d call anything BUT mystical.

Mysticism is not reality. You heard it here first!

So God isn’t real, either, since mysticism describes how God’s love works. I’m glad we got that establilshed.

Did you even read who I was quoting? It wasn’t even you. Honestly, it’s more logical to actually ask a person what’s troubling them rather than casually dismissing it as a spiritual illness that a few decades of the Rosary can cure.

You haven’t heard a word I said. You cannot understand because your mind is in a very small, dualistic trap, and it doesn’t even know it’s there. I keep explaining things, then you keep running back and shooting down straw men. Trust me, you have proven you don’t know about mysticism. And by the way, if it’s important who you quoted, are you going to tell us, or am I supposed to guess so you can tell me I’m wrong?

Oh but no, I despise religion all because I make that little proposal.

Perhaps, but you do dismiss the power of all religion with your ideas that mysticism is not a factor. That’s like saying you don’t believe in gravity so you’re not going to stay down on the floor.

Please explain to me then, if all a priest needs to counsel someone is a few prescriptions of prayers and novenas, why then should he even need to be human? Why can he not simply be replaced by an automated prayer-prescription machine?

Are you kidding me? How many times have I advocated psychology and psychiatry in this thread? At least five times, I suspect. And yet you, having nothing of substance to say against me, keep saying things against me anyway, that have nothing to do with any of my assertions.

Go study mysticism a little bit and then come back and tell us it doesn’t affect any of us. Until then, maybe you should admit you don’t know anything about it except the word.

Right, sure. Ask for something a little bit more than what could more less still be seen as talking to myself and I’m treated like an atheist.

If you deny that mysticism is a factor in everything we do, then you ***are ***a de facto atheist. And to dismiss prayer out-of-hand as “talking to yourself?” :tsktsk:

You don’t need to be a non-believer to find sitting in a room with your hands clasped insufficient.

Now where did you get that from? The thing about the clasped hand? This is the most amazing discussion I’ve had in a long time. Usually after about the third going back and forth somebody will either reply to what I actually write, or quit. You are an exception.

I don’t even know half of what you’re babbling about anymore. I make a simple criticism of an overly-simplified response and you treat me like I’m Richard Dawkins.

I don’t know RIchard Dawkins, and you are not making a simple criticism of an overly-simplified response. You are impugning the entire basis of our faith life, whether you realize it or not. I hope you don’t realize it because if you’re posting like this on purpose I would be astounded.

One bit of advice I do have. If you learn to listen to others and understand them before deciding whether to shoot them down, people will respond, and maybe they would treat you better.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

LW:

my codolences in your trials, you and I are on the same page.

“Jerkette” — I love it!!! I am going to have to steal it.



God Bless, ICXC NIKA

Oh, if you are on the same page, does that mean you also reject the power of mysticism? Do you also reject prayer and spiritual counseling as being of no value in a psychiatric disorder situation? And you also dismiss healing prayers out-of-hand as “talking to yourself?” Do you reject that God has anything to do with medicine? If you don’t, then you are not writing the same things as the poster with whom you are on the same page.

If you do believe these things, then since religion is after all a bunch of rules and rituals that mean nothing, why are you even involved in religion? So we have a group we can identify with? What do you say when others are praying? LOLOLOLOLO?

Alan

 

[Samson01]

Healing comes with we focus on mind, body, and spirit…

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Healing comes with we focus on mind, body, and spirit…

 

[GEddie]

Oh, if you are on the same page, does that mean you also reject the power of mysticism? Do you also reject prayer and spiritual counseling as being of no value in a psychiatric disorder situation? And you also dismiss healing prayers out-of-hand as “talking to yourself?” Do you reject that God has anything to do with medicine? If you don’t, then you are not writing the same things as the poster with whom you are on the same page.

If you do believe these things, then since religion is after all a bunch of rules and rituals that mean nothing, why are you even involved in religion? So we have a group we can identify with? What do you say when others are praying? LOLOLOLOLO?

Alan

Alan, amigo,

Whence all the anger?

I said that LW and I are on the same page because a) he claims to be Catholic, but I don’t know him, so am I, and b) I have difficulties with people who use “spirit” or “mystic” etc to explain away all major factors in our life. The natural body and the cognitive/subconscious mind are just as important, though non “mystical.”

I believe that mystical factors exist in our life, but they are not everything, nor is everybody a priori a mystic. I am not one. If you are, and that helps you to live your life, great!

I don’t know LW nor the experiences in his life that have led to his feelings. But to reduce someone’s life trials to something needing more prayer or to a necessary “mystical experience” can be quite bothersome.

And, by the way, I remain Catholic because I believe in our LORD and b/c if there is anything at all that overcomes human death, it is to be found in HIM. Not because of mystical experiences.

ICXC NIKA

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Alan, amigo,

Whence all the anger?

No anger. (Sorry about the LOLO thing … just clearing my throat.)

b) I have difficulties with people who use “spirit” or “mystic” etc to explain away all major factors in our life. The natural body and the cognitive/subconscious mind are just as important, though non “mystical.”

You don’t understand what mystical means. Mystical theology (I linked to a good book about it earlier) is how our emotional and mental systems interact with our feelings and each other. It is no more or less scientific, or applicable, than the laws of chemistry in the body or any scientifically established psychological principle. It is a different viewpoint toward discovering the same truth. You can refuse to consider this viewpoint, but that doesn’t make it go away.

I believe that mystical factors exist in our life, but they are not everything, nor is everybody a priori a mystic. I am not one. If you are, and that helps you to live your life, great!

Again, you are you using the word “mystical” to mean “supernatural,” or “magic,” it would appear. If that’s what you’re saying, that is invalid word substitute. Different concept entirely.

Look you don’t have to be a mystic, but to poo-poo it by saying it isn’t a significant factor and that it’s less tangible than what some heathen scientist says, is completely out of your field of expertise. I happen to have studied it a lot, and it is important whether you know it or not. That could limit your faith life from proceeding past an ego-centric state.

I don’t know LW nor the experiences in his life that have led to his feelings. But to reduce someone’s life trials to something needing more prayer or to a necessary “mystical experience” can be quite bothersome.

When are you going to quit chiding me for something I didn’t say? Show me the post where I wrote that one should weather life’s storms apart from psychiatry and psychology, or apologize for continuing to falsely accuse me of the stupid things you wish I’d said.

And, by the way, I remain Catholic because I believe in our LORD and b/c if there is anything at all that overcomes human death, it is to be found in HIM. Not because of mystical experiences.

ICXC NIKA

:banghead:

You just contradicted yourself. God is not a separate issue from mysticism. God works through mysticism. Saying you believe in God but not mysticism is like saying you have an ocean with no water. I guess you are a complete stranger to mysticism and wish to remain so. Free will and all.

Now, this time let’s quit telling me I said the same things I never said, ok?

Alan