How much counseling/psychology do Priests learn?

[Tis_Bearself]

In order for a priest to give meaningful spiritual direction, he has to want to do so, have the time to do so and know you well enough to do so. When you are going to confession to a priest who barely knows you, or doesn’t know you at all, and you are behind a screen also, and there is a line of 10 people for confession in the allotted half hour, he is not going to be able to provide meaningful spiritual direction. It might work if one had a regular confessor that one saw every couple of weeks, but many of us are not in that situation.

And frankly, I’m not going to confession to receive spiritual direction. I would prefer that to happen in a much more relaxed atmosphere than confession is for me. Someplace where there aren’t people lined up outside or a Mass starting in 5 minutes that my priest has to hurry up and be at. I just want to tell my sins, get absolution and get out of there.

 

[guanophore]

“Counseling” is a word often thrown about, but it simply means to give advice.

NO.

If one is giving advice on the spiritual life, that is spiritual counseling.

You are certainly free to make up your own definitions for things.

this type of counseling

You do seem to be aware that there are differences, and your definition of the word does not fit all of them, in fact, is contrary to how it is used professionally.

So many here on CAF adamantly state that confession is not the time for any sort of spiritual counseling or direction, save for a few very brief words of encouragement.

Yes. Spiritual direction is important, but it is not a required part of the sacrament, and should take more time with the person.

Thanks be to God, my confessor and a number of notable saints disagree wholeheartedly with this.

It is great to be able to give spiritual direction at confession, but it is not always reasonable.

 

[Gorgias]

‘Go talk to your priest’ seems to be the rule of thumb here. Every difficulty one runs across, and the advice is to talk to your priest.

I’ve usually seen that advice given around here in matters of theology or canon law (e.g., marriage / annulment issues), rather than in pastoral counseling.

In one pastoral counseling class that I heard of, the teacher’s advice was to sit down once or at most twice with a person, but if they needed more counseling than that, then the priest should refer them to a good Catholic therapist / counselor.

From the USCCB’s Program for Priestly Formation, which is a guide to the process of the formation of priests:

Studies in pastoral theology are required and should include
treatment of the principles and criteria for pastoral action and provide for
theological reflection where seminarians are involved in supervised pastoral
placements. Pastoral studies should include training in pastoral counseling,
where seminarians are to learn how to address concerns brought to
them by parishioners for whom they can reasonably offer counsel and how
to make appropriate referrals for issues beyond their competence.

Good listening skills requires ability to empathise though. And this is where many priests don’t have much life experience unless they are late vocations.

Wait – so, although I agree that listening skills are learned, I’m not sure I agree with the rest of your statement. Are you really saying that younger people are bad listeners? Or just younger people who are interested in becoming priests?!?

Im thinking of some of the priests in my local parishes and I’d say only 20% of them might give adequate counselling on those subjects. Takes knowledge and skill overlapping theology and counselling.Should we be expecting priests to do this?

Well, it is part of seminary formation these days, according to the PPF!

 

[TheLittleLady]

All of the Dioceses I’ve interacted with have a group of professionals in place to help those who have experienced trauma. Sometimes it is part of Catholic Charities offices, other places it is a separate office.

I would suggest you become acquainted with this program in your Diocese or the Diocese where you see clients.

 

[babochka]

You do seem to be aware that there are differences, and your definition of the word does not fit all of them, in fact, is contrary to how it is used professionally.

You seem to be determined to use a narrow definition of the word, while I choose a broad definition. You have not provided an alternative definition. You only state that my definition is incorrect.

It might suprise you to know that I have an MSW.

There is no consensus among mental health professionals as to the definition of the word counseling. Various professions and professional organizations have been able to define the word in a manner that best suits what they do. The definition that I provided, while broad, was not incorrect and encompasses all types of counseling.

Employment counseling; premarital counseling; relocation counseling; bereavement counseling; debt counseling; career counseling; design counseling; marriage counseling; immigration counseling; genetic counseling; guidance counseling… and yes, spiritual counseling

Since you have rejected my previous definition, I offer this, from the Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary: the job or process of listening to someone and giving that person advice about their problems

Or this one: the providing of expert guidance or advice http://www.yourdictionary.com/

(Is a priest not an expert in spiritual matters?)

Yes. [Spiritual direction is important, but it is not a required part of the sacrament, and should take more time with the person.]

I never said it is a required part of the sacrament. You can baptize a baby by pouring water over the head and saying, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit”. That would be valid and provide all the necessary sacramental grace, yet it would still be a deficient celebration of the sacrament. So much so that the Church has provided a specific ceremony for supplying the rites missed in an emergency baptism. Is this for the sake of the child (or adult), who has already been baptized? No, it is for the benefit of others present, that they might hear the beatiful and spiritually beneficial rites of the Church. I contend that it is the similar for Confession. There is no doubt that the essentials are repentance, confession, absolution. Yet, when the priest takes a few minutes to provide some solid spiritual

Spoiler

counsel

advice, a bit of direction and instruction, and a few words of kindness and encouragement, there can be a clear benefit to the penitent, even if it not strictly necessary.

I’ll close with the words of St. Alphonsus Ligouri, patron of confessors: “But some will say, ‘If we treat sinners in this manner a great deal of our time will be taken up, and others who are waiting cannot be heard.’ But in answer I say, that it is better to hear one confession well than to hear a great number imperfectly. But the most appropriate answer is, that the confessor has not to give an account to God of the persons who are waiting, but only of the person whose confession he has begun to hear."

 

[guanophore]

You seem to be determined to use a narrow definition of the word, while I choose a broad definition. You have not provided an alternative definition. You only state that my definition is incorrect.

Yes. It is not helpful to conflate “counseling” with spiritual direction, confession, or advice giving.

“Counseling” has developed into a professional service that, in many States, is regulated such that it can only be provided by licensed persons. This was not the case when the term “counsel” was used in Scripture.

It might suprise you to know that I have an MSW.

It might, but it changes nothing. Conflating these concepts together leads to confusion between them. If you have an MSW, then perhaps YOU will not be confused, but others will be. This is why there is such care taken to distinguish spiritual direction from counseling.

There is no consensus among mental health professionals as to the definition of the word counseling.

Perhaps not, but this does not prevent State agencies from defining it and regulating it. It is a foregone conclusion that Social Workers will not be in consensus with other providers, such as those prepared with a Masters in Counseling.

Various professions and professional organizations have been able to define the word in a manner that best suits what they do.

That may be, but this also changes nothing. These persons and organizations are also subject to the definitions created by governing bodies, whether they agree with them, or not.

Employment counseling; premarital counseling; relocation counseling; bereavement counseling; debt counseling; career counseling; design counseling; marriage counseling; immigration counseling; genetic counseling; guidance counseling… and yes, spiritual counseling

You have stated that it is your position that counseling boils down to the giving of “advice”. This definition may be what MSW’s have adopted, I don’t know, but I do know that professional organizations that represent all these other forms of counseling would, for the most part, cringe at such a definition.

 

[guanophore]

Since you have rejected my previous definition, I offer this, from the Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary: the job or process of listening to someone and giving that person advice about their problems

Really?! After asserting that all these forms of counseling and their representatives define the field for themselves you are going to try the Cambridge dictionary?!

I would encourage you to try again, but it is really not worth the trouble. You are certainly welcome to your dictionary definitions. I commend you to them.

You can baptize a baby by pouring water over the head and saying, “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit”. That would be valid and provide all the necessary sacramental grace, yet it would still be a deficient celebration of the sacrament.

How interesting. Do you have any church documents to support this view, or does it also come from a dictionary?

I contend that it is the similar for Confession.

You are certainly free to do so. You may find any celebration of the Sacrament of Reconciliation that does not include giving advice to be “deficient”.

There is no doubt that the essentials are repentance, confession, absolution.

Except that they are “deficient” if they don’t include the giving of advice?

 

[babochka]

You have stated that it is your position that counseling boils down to the giving of “advice”. This definition may be what MSW’s have adopted, I don’t know, but I do know that professional organizations that represent all these other forms of counseling would, for the most part, cringe at such a definition.

I’m still waiting for your definition of the word.

It might, but it changes nothing. Conflating these concepts together leads to confusion between them. If you have an MSW, then perhaps YOU will not be confused, but others will be. This is why there is such care taken to distinguish spiritual direction from counseling.

I have more faith in the general public than that. I think that people are able to distinguish between giving counsel (“Father counseled me to avoid this, as it seems to be a near occasion of sin for me.” “His teacher counseled him about the effect of his missing assignments on his grades.”) and professional counseling (“My husband and I are in marriage counseling.”)

Perhaps not, but this does not prevent State agencies from defining it and regulating it. It is a foregone conclusion that Social Workers will not be in consensus with other providers, such as those prepared with a Masters in Counseling.

Yet you are determined to use your (unstated) definition here and apply it to all situations.

State agencies define it for licensing purposes. I am unaware of a state agency that licenses spiritual counseling or a standard professional definition for the term.

You have stated that it is your position that counseling boils down to the giving of “advice”. This definition may be what MSW’s have adopted, I don’t know, but I do know that professional organizations that represent all these other forms of counseling would, for the most part, cringe at such a definition.

No, this is not how MSWs define counseling as a profession. I have made it clear that I am not using the word in any professional sense.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I don’t pretend to any expertise in the field. But I do know some excellent professionals in the psych field and have talked to them some because of my general interest in the subject and because one of them is related to me.

Anyway, among them there seems to be a consensus that most psych problems are short-lived of their nature unless there is a pharmacological element to it. If there is a pharmacological need, it’s an absolute and not much progress is going to be made without pharmacological intervention. Priests can’t provide that.

Once that’s established, the psychologist can take over to help the patient “unlearn” some of the self-harming coping patterns he/she had developed over the years. This really does take a professional. Priests generally can’t provide that, and probably have no business trying it.

With those whose problems are short-term of their nature, (traumatic event, tragic loss, etc) it’s mainly a matter of listening and facilitating the patient’s “talking it out”. Priests can be helpful in that, if they have the time to do it.

I don’t think I would be supportive of priests’ training including a whole lot of psychology, particularly because a halfway psych education might be worse than none at all.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

‘Go talk to your priest’ seems to be the rule of thumb here. Every difficulty one runs across, and the advice is to talk to your priest.

There are reasons for this. Many of the inquiries we get on here require a priest for reasons of canon law or church rules, or require a priest for purposes of a process or a sacrament. We are generally not directing people to priests just to chat about their problems.

“Is this a sin?” - We on this forum are not in a position to judge someone else’s sins. If the sin seems obvious, such as stealing a high dollar item or cheating on wife, then we can say, “yes, sounds like a sin” but the person still needs to go to confession and be ablsolved by a priest. More often the sin is something that seems to be a scrupulosity issue or the poster seems very young, and in that case it should be handled by a priest in the confessional who among other things will tell the person what they should be confessing and how often, to avoid adding onto someone’s scrupulosity disorder, as well as absolving any sin that may have occurred. A priest is needed here for process, whether or not he does pastoral counseling.

“Is my marriage valid/ do I need an annulment/ etc.” - This is basically seeking canon law and marriage sacrament type advice, not pastoral counseling. These situations need the individual attention of a priest and perhaps also a canon lawyer. Much of the “advice” people give on here about these subjects is incorrect for the same reason much legal “advice” handed out on the Internet is incorrect, and in any case people on a forum cannot do the Church procedures required to make a marriage valid or annul one. A priest is needed here for process, whether or not he does pastoral counseling.

“I’m worried that I’m cursed/ my house has an evil spirit/ etc” - If the person does have any sort of demonic issue, then the priest is required to handle it. Lay Catholics cannot do deliverance on their own. The priest in talking to the person face to face would also be better able to determine if they might have a real problem needing exorcism, or are just letting their imagination run away with them, or possibly need a referral to a mental health counselor.

“I think I might have a vocation” - Obviously if you think you might want to be a priest, it’s a good idea to discuss this with an actual priest.

“I can’t stop masturbating or looking at porn” - A person in the grip of a repeated sin probably does need some kind of pastoral counseling to help them break the habit, especially since many of the people posting this stuff are minors and shouldn’t be discussing it on a forum full of adults.

“I want to become a Catholic” - You need to talk to a priest who will direct you to the nearest RCIA resource.

“I have a problem with something in my parish” - Obviously if there is a problem in your parish, you need to talk to the priest/ pastor there.

I have also noticed that posters on here are quite direct about situations where they feel the priest is NOT the best resource and one nneds to contact the police, call a suicide hotline, etc.

 

[babochka]

How interesting. Do you have any church documents to support this view, or does it also come from a dictionary?

Do you have a problem with the use of dictionaries to define words? They can be very helpful because they give you all the possible meanings of a word, including those which you would rather not acknowledge.

Deficient was a very bad word choice. How about impoverished? The sacrament is most definitely complete, but the Church has given us rich rites to accompany the baptism. If a child is baptized under emergency circumstances, it is intended that these rites will later be supplied. I can’t find the current ritual, but here is the old one: https://www.sanctamissa.org/en/reso...-romanum/13-baptism-supplying-ceremonies.html

Except that they are “deficient” if they don’t include the giving of advice?

Again, I’ll go with impoverished. I believe it is an impoverished experience.

I have no problem if a priest does not spend the time to do this. He has his personality, time constraints, and particular training and experience to draw from. He is celebrating the sacrament and omitting nothing essential. I would not seek out such a confessor and I wouldn’t return to such a confessor except in case of urgent necessity. I have used the same confessor for the last 10 years because I appreciate the relationship that we have built for the sake of confession. I returned to him after the first confession with him because of the time and care he took in hearing my confession.

My issue here is those who adamantly state that there is no place for spiritual counseling/spiritual direction/spiritual advice-giving in the confessional. Those who contend that the confessional is absolutely not the place for such things are not speaking with the mind of the Church.

 

[jfz178]

I am a big fan of priests, pastoral counseling and confession. I don’t think psyc. counseling is their job. I have to say I have gotten more comfort out of talking to priests than psychologists. I have seen several shrinks and about half of them are not very good, IMHO.

This is not a Catholic example. I wish I had one. I am very impressed with Elizabeth Smart, who was abducted at 14 and held for nine months by two pseudo-religious nut jobs. She was raped daily. Now, years later, I have heard her give talks and read about her life and she is the most centered, balanced, normal person I can imagine. She is amazing.

Here’s the thing: She had no psyc. counseling in her recovery. None. It was all faith-based, Mormon in her case. I think psychology vastly overstates its effectiveness and importance.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think there is definitely a place for counseling and psychology in society and that many people benefit from it.

However, I think the counseling/ psychology field also suffers from the “when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail” problem where many people think counseling/ psychology is the answer to everything. It’s not, and some people may do very well with other sources of support.

 

[pensmama87]

Priests also tend to have connections to resources available in the community. They might not do the counseling, but they might know a competent therapist who would respect Catholic teaching.

 

[LadyofFaith1978]

No, I was never protestant. I didn’t disagree with what the Catholic Church suggests to do in situations or anything like that. The priest didn’t have any tact in the confession, I could tell he didn’t mean any harm he just wouldn’t be best at talking to another who lets say is just coming back to the church. If you have personal questions for me, you may email me.

 

[LadyofFaith1978]

I know. I clearly say I know a confession is a confession. Thanks. Perhaps if I learn to close a question (if this forum allows it), I would have closed it like 30 replies ago when someone already answered my question.

 

[po18guy]

I meant no offense, so forgive me in that regard. Just a simple question, that’s all.

 

[LadyofFaith1978]

I wasn’t offended and that reply was not to you. I was seriously curious, can you close a question?

 

[guanophore]

Except that they are “deficient” if they don’t include the giving of advice?

Priests also tend to have connections to resources available in the community.

Surely they could provide no resources that an MSW doesn’t have!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Once that’s established, the psychologist can take over to help the patient “unlearn” some of the self-harming coping patterns he/she had developed over the years.

As I said, I’m no expert. I don’t know exactly how it works on a day to day basis. But it is my definite impression that psychologists do not “tell” people things. They “draw it out” of people.