How much did Adam and Eve know about God?

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iohannes13 said:
Tell me what sin they committed? Hint: it wasn’t eating a fruit from a tree. God would be pretty harsh to punish them with death just for that don’t you agree?
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The sin was disobeying God by trying to find out about good & evil.
 
truetofaith said:
The sin was disobeying God by trying to find out about good & evil.
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No it wasn’t disobedience because something else like pride would have motivated them to disobey. Those thoughts or desires would be sinful right? And what’s wrong with knowing the difference between good and evil? If God gave Adam and Eve free will why would He punish them for exercising that gift? But still that’s pretty harsh for a compassionate loving God to punish them with death don’t you think just for disobeying? Actually the bible doesn’t say what they did to **** off God (the fruit and tree are a symbol for something they did. But what they did had to have fitted the punishment? No? I would expect that from a God that says that there is no justice like his justice ( one without sin throw first stone story). It then actually sounds like 2 different Gods. One is harsh and the other one is forgiving. How do you reconcile the two?
 
iohannes13 said:
No it wasn’t disobedience because something else like pride would have motivated them to disobey. Those thoughts or desires would be sinful right? And what’s wrong with knowing the difference between good and evil? If God gave Adam and Eve free will why would He punish them for exercising that gift? But still that’s pretty harsh for a compassionate loving God to punish them with death don’t you think just for disobeying? Actually the bible doesn’t say what they did to **** off God (the fruit and tree are a symbol for something they did. But what they did had to have fitted the punishment? No? I would expect that from a God that says that there is no justice like his justice ( one without sin throw first stone story). It then actually sounds like 2 different Gods. One is harsh and the other one is forgiving. How do you reconcile the two?
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Two gods :confused: :eek:

I’ve had enough…I’m going to become a Jehovah Witness. :eek:
 
truetofaith said:
I only thing I can imagine is God didn’t want any error in the Bible. 🤷
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There are lots and lots of errors (historically, etc.) in the Bible. Heck some books and passages contradict other books and passages in the Bible. How do you explain that if God was guiding them? And how exactly did he guide them did you say?
 
iohannes13 said:
There are lots and lots of errors (historically, etc.) in the Bible. Heck some books and passages contradict other books and passages in the Bible. How do you explain that if God was guiding them? And how exactly did he guide them did you say?
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I didn’t say…I guess mental telepathy. 😃
 
truetofaith said:
I only thing I can imagine is God didn’t want any error in the Bible. 🤷
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truetofaith said:
Two gods :confused: :eek:

I’ve had enough…I’m going to become a Jehovah Witness. :eek:
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Dude if you want to become a sales man subsidizing the Watchtower’s (JEHOVAH WITNESSES) expenses that wouldnt be bad. What I mean by that is that the cost of the books and pamphlets they give out will come out of your pocket. That’s right, JW’s are unknowing salesmen peddling the Watchtower reading materials.

But all jokes aside, if you are having a crisis of faith, keep researching and reading. The truth and knowledge that you will gain is much more beautiful than the child’s faith many of us try to cling to. My priest got on my case bad about what he called a child’s faith. Here is an example. I believed that Moses parted the red sea. But now I realize that wasn’t the point of the story. God is not going to punish me for not believing that Moses didn’t do that. The author of Exodus wanted to teach me a lesson. The lesson I got out of it was That whenever God acts in your life, it’s something huge. But better way to describe that then writing that cool story?
 
iohannes13 said:
No it wasn’t disobedience because something else like pride would have motivated them to disobey. Those thoughts or desires would be sinful right? And what’s wrong with knowing the difference between good and evil? If God gave Adam and Eve free will why would He punish them for exercising that gift? But still that’s pretty harsh for a compassionate loving God to punish them with death don’t you think just for disobeying? Actually the bible doesn’t say what they did to **** off God (the fruit and tree are a symbol for something they did. But what they did had to have fitted the punishment? No? I would expect that from a God that says that there is no justice like his justice ( one without sin throw first stone story). It then actually sounds like 2 different Gods. One is harsh and the other one is forgiving. How do you reconcile the two?
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While I actually agree with much of what you said on this thread, I do think that you have missed the mark here. The sin of Adam and Eve was certainly disobedience, a presumption to be “like God who knows.” The use of free will to pursue one’s own will instead of God’s is not a righteous use of the gift. The misuse of free will makes one susceptible to judgement. Free will isn’t a get out of jail free card; as in all things in life, there are consequences for bad decisions.
 
Tim_D said:
While I actually agree with much of what you said on this thread, I do think that you have missed the mark here. The sin of Adam and Eve was certainly disobedience, a presumption to be “like God who knows.” The use of free will to pursue one’s own will instead of God’s is not a righteous use of the gift. The misuse of free will makes one susceptible to judgement. Free will isn’t a get out of jail free card; as in all things in life, there are consequences for bad decisions./

I know that the catechism says that’s its disobedience literally like the story says. But Jesus said that just by looking and desiring a married woman you’ve committed adultery. But how is that possible if no adulterous acts were committed? It was just me having a fantasy! Where is the harm in that? Just the same, Adam and Eve desiring to be like God had already committed the sin because that’s what was in their heart. And to be fair to them, they were seduced and tricked by the serpent. There should have been some lieniency from God don’t you think? That’s just my thoughts. But contradictions like these that helped me realize that this story is not literal.
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Tim_D said:
While I actually agree with much of what you said on this thread, I do think that you have missed the mark here. The sin of Adam and Eve was certainly disobedience, a presumption to be “like God who knows.” The use of free will to pursue one’s own will instead of God’s is not a righteous use of the gift. The misuse of free will makes one susceptible to judgement. Free will isn’t a get out of jail free card; as in all things in life, there are consequences for bad decisions.
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See I think that you’ve pointed out something the story might be trying to teach us. You simply can’t do whatever you want because some of our actions will bring bad consequences. Is that the moral of that part of the story? If I snatch your sandwich from your hand because that’s how I want to excerise my free will will invite a quick kick to my head from you. See, that’s a valuable lesson from the story without having to resort to believing it literally. Just like I’ve been arguing, that’s the whole point of myths.
 
Tim_D said:
While I actually agree with much of what you said on this thread, I do think that you have missed the mark here. The sin of Adam and Eve was certainly disobedience, a presumption to be “like God who knows.” The use of free will to pursue one’s own will instead of God’s is not a righteous use of the gift. The misuse of free will makes one susceptible to judgement. Free will isn’t a get out of jail free card; as in all things in life, there are consequences for bad decisions.
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By the way how does free will work in this context. Supposedly it’s a gift from God but He gives it to us then we can’t use it. I mean He says you have free will and can do anything you want as long as it’s what I want. If you don’t do what I want you’ll be sorry.
 
iohannes13 said:
By the way how does free will work in this context. Supposedly it’s a gift from God but He gives it to us then we can’t use it. I mean He says you have free will and can do anything you want as long as it’s what I want. If you don’t do what I want you’ll be sorry.
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You have free will to choose Heaven or hell ! :eek:
 
Lol, you guys got me thinking more and more about the Book of Genesis. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that the Hebrew pantheon of gods was as petty and cruel as any pagan pantheon.

In an attempt to reconcile the benevolent loving compassionate God that Jesus talked about to the jolly bunch in the Book of Genesis, the Church has retconned the story. Even though the story does not claim these things, the Church or its agents teach that God knew that Adam and Eve would fail His test. But He let it happen because they had free will. But not only that, but because in his loving mercy and wisdom he let it happen because of His Amazing master plan. He could use the fall as a chance to make people Divine through Jesus.

So God watched the whole thing happen and did nothing. I don’t know about you but if my baby wanted to play with a rattle snake against me telling him not to, I’m going to step in and stop him. Man that’s some tough love from God to let it happen. But He didn’t use it as a way to teach them the consequence of misusing free will. There was no tender moment from the parent God. The story shows that the Hebrew gods reacted no different than how Zeus would have reacted.

The Hebrew gods kept their promise that Adam and Eve would die for eating the fruit. But it didn’t happen right away. First the gods had to go ape on them. Adam was cursed with backbreaking work for the rest of his life. They didn’t hold back on Eve, she was cursed to feel the worst pain that anybody can feel. And they were both cursed to suffer for the rest of their lives. And when they finally reached old age, broken from a life filled with hardship and pain and suffering from being pounded into the ground every day, and when they finally thought they had some respite because they were too old to work or have children, that’s when they finally died. And death in this context was ultimate. There was no after life, no soul. Death meant that they were wiped out of existence for good. No rest for the wicked. That’ll learn them. Now compare this story to the tenderness and compassion of Jesus.
 
iohannes13 said:
Lol, you guys got me thinking more and more about the Book of Genesis. And the more I think about it, the more I realize that the Hebrew pantheon of gods was as petty and cruel as any pagan pantheon.

In an attempt to reconcile the benevolent loving compassionate God that Jesus talked about to the jolly bunch in the Book of Genesis, the Church has retconned the story. Even though the story does not claim these things, the Church or its agents teach that God knew that Adam and Eve would fail His test. But He let it happen because they had free will. But not only that, but because in his loving mercy and wisdom he let it happen because of His Amazing master plan. He could use the fall as a chance to make people Divine through Jesus.

So God watched the whole thing happen and did nothing. I don’t know about you but if my baby wanted to play with a rattle snake against me telling him not to, I’m going to step in and stop him. Man that’s some tough love from God to let it happen. But He didn’t use it as a way to teach them the consequence of misusing free will. There was no tender moment from the parent God. The story shows that the Hebrew gods reacted no different than how Zeus would have reacted.

The Hebrew gods kept their promise that Adam and Eve would die for eating the fruit. But it didn’t happen right away. First the gods had to go ape on them. Adam was cursed with backbreaking work for the rest of his life. They didn’t hold back on Eve, she was cursed to feel the worst pain that anybody can feel. And they were both cursed to suffer for the rest of their lives. And when they finally reached old age, broken from a life filled with hardship and pain and suffering from being pounded into the ground every day, and when they finally thought they had some respite because they were too old to work or have children, that’s when they finally died. And death in this context was ultimate. There was no after life, no soul. Death meant that they were wiped out of existence for good. No rest for the wicked. That’ll learn them. Now compare this story to the tenderness and compassion of Jesus.
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You keep talking about “Hebrew gods” and waste my time so as they say, south of the border… Adios! 👋
 
iohannes13 said:
Tim_D;13289559:
While I actually agree with much of what you said on this thread, I do think that you have missed the mark here. The sin of Adam and Eve was certainly disobedience, a presumption to be “like God who knows.” The use of free will to pursue one’s own will instead of God’s is not a righteous use of the gift. The misuse of free will makes one susceptible to judgement. Free will isn’t a get out of jail free card; as in all things in life, there are consequences for bad decisions./

I know that the catechism says that’s its disobedience literally like the story says. But Jesus said that just by looking and desiring a married woman you’ve committed adultery. But how is that possible if no adulterous acts were committed? It was just me having a fantasy! Where is the harm in that? Just the same, Adam and Eve desiring to be like God had already committed the sin because that’s what was in their heart. And to be fair to them, they were seduced and tricked by the serpent. There should have been some lieniency from God don’t you think? That’s just my thoughts. But contradictions like these that helped me realize that this story is not literal.
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This isn’t true. The CC teaches that their desire to be like God was good, and innate. The whole point of Genesis is that for any part of creation to misalign itself with God’s will is disastrous. It’s like defying gravity by stepping off a cliff. It’s to be in a state of disharmony, to be out of sync with Reality, Nature, Truth. Man, due to free will, has that very capacity.

And then, to put it simply, all sin stems from a misaligned heart; sinful acts don’t occur out of a vacuum, apart from the will which enables the act.
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fhansen said:
iohannes13;13289576:
This isn’t true. The CC teaches that their desire to be like God was good, and innate. The whole point of Genesis is that for any part of creation to misalign itself with God’s will is disastrous. It’s like defying gravity by stepping off a cliff. It’s to be in a state of disharmony, to be out of sync with Reality, Nature, Truth. Man, due to free will, has that very capacity.

And then, to put it simply, all sin stems from a misaligned heart; sinful acts don’t occur out of a vacuum, apart from the will which enables the act.
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What isn’t true? The catechism says that Adams sin was disobedience. And Jesus did say that.
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fhansen said:
iohannes13;13289576:
This isn’t true. The CC teaches that their desire to be like God was good, and innate. The whole point of Genesis is that for any part of creation to misalign itself with God’s will is disastrous. It’s like defying gravity by stepping off a cliff. It’s to be in a state of disharmony, to be out of sync with Reality, Nature, Truth. Man, due to free will, has that very capacity.

And then, to put it simply, all sin stems from a misaligned heart; sinful acts don’t occur out of a vacuum, apart from the will which enables the act.
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And I disagree that their desire to be like God was good. It was not the innocent desire that a child may display wanting to be like and emulating their parents. What you are implying is that God was merciless. I’m mean, death was not punishment enough, He went ape on Adam and Eve and added a bunch of horrible punishments on top of that simply for wanting to be like daddy. Look, I had told my boy not to touch my razor because he could hurt himself. But wanting to be like daddy, he one day grabbed it, emulated me shaving and cut his cheek. I didnt go ape on him and beat him for disobeying. I explained to him that he needs to learn to listen to me. if I tell him not to do something it’s because it’s for his own good.

Doesnt Paul say somewhere that Jesus was awesome because he did not desire to lift himself up to God like Adam did or something like that? Please help me find the passage.
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But I do appreciate that you are looking beyond a literal interpretation of the story and are looking for other meanings and lessons for your life from that story.
 
fhansen said:
iohannes13;13293440:
Think you might be having some trouble with the quote function here.
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Yeah sorry I intended to quote you so you would know message was for you. Oh yes, I see that it says that I made the original posts when it was your chat that I quoted. I didn’t notice that.

Update : it did it with this note to. It says I’m the original poster of the quote of your message.
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