How much did Adam and Eve know about God?

[fhansen]

And I disagree that their desire to be like God was good. It was not the innocent desire that a child may display wanting to be like and emulating their parents. What you are implying is that God was merciless. I’m mean, death was not punishment enough, He went ape on Adam and Eve and added a bunch of horrible punishments on top of that simply for wanting to be like daddy. Look, I had told my boy not to touch my razor because he could hurt himself. But wanting to be like daddy, he one day grabbed it, emulated me shaving and cut his cheek. I didnt go ape on him and beat him for disobeying. I explained to him that he needs to learn to listen to me. if I tell him not to do something it’s because it’s for his own good.

Doesnt Paul say somewhere that Jesus was awesome because he did not desire to lift himself up to God like Adam did or something like that? Please help me find the passage.

No, the Church teaches that even God wants man to be like God-that’s His purpose because there’s no greater happiness to be achieved. But man, a created being, cannot realize this beatitude and perfection apart from God. So the purpose of the New Covenant-and of the Church-is to reestablish the relationship with God that Adam cavalierly dismissed. Adam jumped off the cliff, and fell. God didn’t abandon him but rather already had a plan in place for Adam’s rising.

Its all about man’s will. Do we want to commune with God? And this desire is aided by revelation. As we come to know just who God really is (since man conceived a “distorted image” of Him in the beginning according to the catechism), then we can begin to turn back to Him in faith, hope, and, ultimately, love, the natural end of growing in the knowledge of God. Jesus came, when the time was ripe in human history, to show us just who God really is, to erase that distorted image IOW.

 

[iohannes13]

No, the Church teaches that even God wants man to be like God-that’s His purpose because there’s no greater happiness to be achieved. But man, a created being, cannot realize this beatitude and perfection apart from God. So the purpose of the New Covenant-and of the Church-is to reestablish the relationship with God that Adam cavalierly dismissed. Adam jumped off the cliff, and fell. God didn’t abandon him but rather already had a plan in place for Adam’s rising.

Its all about man’s will. Do we want to commune with God? And this desire is aided by revelation. As we come to know just who God really is (since man conceived a “distorted image” of Him in the beginning according to the catechism), then we can begin to turn back to Him in faith, hope, and, ultimately, love, the natural end of growing in the knowledge of God. Jesus came, when the time was ripe in human history, to show us just who God really is, to erase that distorted image IOW.

Yeah the catechism says that God planned on making people Divine all along. But I was taught that that was part of the plan only because God foresaw that Adam and Eve would fall. So now I’m just totally confused and this plays like a circular argument in my head just as bad as trying to decipher time travel paradoxes in a sci fi movie. It wasn’t His plan but it was His plan. It wasn’t his Plan to elevate man. He allowed the fall to happen because He makes good outcomes come out of bad. Man fell so God would use that bad event to elevate man to Godhood when He fixes it. But it was His plan all along because he foresaw the fall. Ay yay yay where is Data when you need him.

Where does this teaching that God planned to make people Divine, regardless of the fall, come from? Is that in the Bible? Again, I was taught that it was an addendum to the plan, but then it wasn’t because he knew it was going to happen…oh boy.

 

[truetofaith]

I learned…Although God knows what will happen, He doesn’t cause it to happen.

 

[iohannes13]

I learned…Although God knows what will happen, He doesn’t cause it to happen.

Yeah, the way people have always described God to me was that He doesn’t cause things to happen so it’s not his fault of the bad stuff that happens. But they sure make Him sound like He likes taking credit for the good things that happen.

 

[truetofaith]

Yeah, the way people have always described God to me was that He doesn’t cause things to happen so it’s not his fault of the bad stuff that happens. But they sure make Him sound like He likes taking credit for the good things that happen.

Sounds like you have a bit of a beef with God…better talk to Him about it!

 

[iohannes13]

Sounds like you have a bit of a beef with God…better talk to Him about it!

I do. And I ask but He never responds. But if you notice I questioning people’s views more than anything.

 

[fhansen]

Yeah the catechism says that God planned on making people Divine all along. But I was taught that that was part of the plan only because God foresaw that Adam and Eve would fall. So now I’m just totally confused and this plays like a circular argument in my head just as bad as trying to decipher time travel paradoxes in a sci fi movie. It wasn’t His plan but it was His plan. It wasn’t his Plan to elevate man. He allowed the fall to happen because He makes good outcomes come out of bad. Man fell so God would use that bad event to elevate man to Godhood when He fixes it. But it was His plan all along because he foresaw the fall. Ay yay yay where is Data when you need him.

Where does this teaching that God planned to make people Divine, regardless of the fall, come from? Is that in the Bible? Again, I was taught that it was an addendum to the plan, but then it wasn’t because he knew it was going to happen…oh boy.

It wasn’t an addendum-they could’ve eaten from the Tree of Life instead of the other-and that would’ve accomplished the same IMO, growing nearer yet to God rather than turning away. That would’ve been the greatest choice, which they obviously weren’t ready to make yet. Instead they took a detour-out of Eden and into the pigsty, relatively speaking-so that, like Prodigals, they may gain the wisdom to return back home. Again, a matter of the will, recognizing and being drawn to the greatest good. God’s patient; He has it planned, having made His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection” as the catechism teaches.

 

[iohannes13]

Sounds like you have a bit of a beef with God…better talk to Him about it!

By the way you didn’t answer, if Genesis was literal, you don’t think God went over board in his punishments? He kicked Adam and Eve out of their home. Did your mom do that to you for disobeying? If it was because he didn’t want them to eat of the other tree, which I dont recall was prohibited, why didn’t he replant the tree somewhere else instead?

 

[iohannes13]

It wasn’t an addendum-they could’ve eaten from the Tree of Life instead of the other-and that would’ve accomplished the same IMO, growing nearer yet to God rather than turning away. That would’ve been the greatest choice, which they obviously weren’t ready to make yet. Instead they took a detour-out of Eden and into the pigsty, relatively speaking-so that, like Prodigals, they may gain the wisdom to return back home. Again, a matter of the will, recognizing and being drawn to the greatest good. God’s patient; He has it planned, having made His universe in a “state of journeying to perfection” as the catechism teaches.

Hey that’s a good comparison with the story of the prodigal son.

I don’t recall the tree of life being mention before the fall only the tree of knowledge. I have to read the story again. Hey if I knew that the tree of life was there and what it did I would eat from it. But that I remember, that Genisis only brings it up after the fall, maybe God forgot to tell them that little detail.

In a way Genesis has parallels with the story of Prometheus and Pandora’s box.

 

[truetofaith]

By the way you didn’t answer, if Genesis was literal, you don’t think God went over board in his punishments? He kicked Adam and Eve out of their home. Did your mom do that to you for disobeying? If it was because he didn’t want them to eat of the other tree, which I dont recall was prohibited, why didn’t he replant the tree somewhere else instead?

God didn’t go overboard…Read Genesis 3 …Adam & Eve knew the consequences of disobeying God. Eve believed the serpent’s lie & dragged Adam along with her.

 

[iohannes13]

God didn’t go overboard…Read Genesis 3 …Adam & Eve knew the consequences of disobeying God. Eve believed the serpent’s lie & dragged Adam along with her.

Eve didn’t drag Adam into anything. That dude jumped in head first before looking to see if there was any water in the pool. All he did was not take responsibility for what he did and blamed her. I recall that God called him out on that. Maybe He didn’t I don’t remember.

 

[fhansen]

Hey that’s a good comparison with the story of the prodigal son.

I don’t recall the tree of life being mention before the fall only the tree of knowledge. I have to read the story again. Hey if I knew that the tree of life was there and what it did I would eat from it. But that I remember, that Genisis only brings it up after the fall, maybe God forgot to tell them that little detail.

In a way Genesis has parallels with the story of Prometheus and Pandora’s box.

Nope, He told them about it before the Fall. It was the most important tree there, ignored like so many important things in life.

 

[Tim_D]

iohannes13;13289576:

This isn’t true. The CC teaches that their desire to be like God was good, and innate. The whole point of Genesis is that for any part of creation to misalign itself with God’s will is disastrous. It’s like defying gravity by stepping off a cliff. It’s to be in a state of disharmony, to be out of sync with Reality, Nature, Truth. Man, due to free will, has that very capacity.

And then, to put it simply, all sin stems from a misaligned heart; sinful acts don’t occur out of a vacuum, apart from the will which enables the act.

Sorry but it is true. Adam and Eve’s sin was one of disobedience based on the misguided desire to presume to be like God. Their will was not designed to what God wanted but what they, themselves, wanted and desired. What is sin? Sin is when we abandon God’s will for our own. The “disaster” of Genesis is that through presumption and disobedience, Adam and Eve lost sanctifying grace and original Justice that God desired for them through their own actions and free will.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen;13293288:

Sorry but it is true. Adam and Eve’s sin was one of disobedience based on the misguided desire to presume to be like God. Their will was not designed to what God wanted but what they, themselves, wanted and desired. What is sin? Sin is when we abandon God’s will for our own. The “disaster” of Genesis is that through presumption and disobedience, Adam and Eve lost sanctifying grace and original Justice that God desired for them through their own actions and free will.

Creation must be aligned with God’s will, subjugated to and in communion with Him, or else chaos results.

 

[Tim_D]

Tim_D;13294195:

Creation must be aligned with God’s will, subjugated to and in communion with Him, or else chaos results.

Yeah, I think I just said that.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen;13294346:

Yeah, I think I just said that.

Yes, that’s what I had said in the post that you quoted, which was misquoted as a quote of iohannes13’s. There seems to be an epidemic of misquotes here lately.

 

[ChosenOne7]

Dude if you want to become a sales man subsidizing the Watchtower’s (JEHOVAH WITNESSES) expenses that wouldnt be bad. What I mean by that is that the cost of the books and pamphlets they give out will come out of your pocket. That’s right, JW’s are unknowing salesmen peddling the Watchtower reading materials.

That’s a misconception you have about Jehovahs witnesses… But I’d like to just give a brief over view of how we see this whole thing…

God’s original purpose was for perfect humans to live forever in paradise in a perfect world, if Adam and Eve didn’t sin then everyone else would of been perfect on earth now… Hence the Bible says “through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin”, if there was no sin there would be no death… God wanted humans to live forever on earth. Also if Adam didn’t sin then there would be no need for Jesus to come to earth because Jesus came to die for our sins if we were perfect and didn’t sin it wouldn’t be necessary for Jesus to do that… Since a perfect man Adam sinned God had to send someone perfect as a ransom so as to buy our sins back an that was Jesus. Perfect man for perfect man…
We also believe that God’s original purpose for perfect humans to live on a paradise earth forever has not changed, that is why we believe not everyone is going to heaven because it nullifies God’s original purpose for humans. Also before Adam an Eve sinned God warned them that if they eat from the tree they would “positively die”… He didn’t warn them about being thrown into hell and burning forever… Or that their souls will live on forever… That’s another reason we don’t in believe in hell.

But that’s it in a nutshell… The majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses is looking forward to living on earth forever as perfect humans… Most of us don’t have a desire to go to heaven

 

[truetofaith]

That’s a misconception you have about Jehovahs witnesses… But I’d like to just give a brief over view of how we see this whole thing…

God’s original purpose was for perfect humans to live forever in paradise in a perfect world, if Adam and Eve didn’t sin then everyone else would of been perfect on earth now… Hence the Bible says “through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin”, if there was no sin there would be no death… God wanted humans to live forever on earth. Also if Adam didn’t sin then there would be no need for Jesus to come to earth because Jesus came to die for our sins if we were perfect and didn’t sin it wouldn’t be necessary for Jesus to do that… Since a perfect man Adam sinned God had to send someone perfect as a ransom so as to buy our sins back an that was Jesus. Perfect man for perfect man…
We also believe that God’s original purpose for perfect humans to live on a paradise earth forever has not changed, that is why we believe not everyone is going to heaven because it nullifies God’s original purpose for humans. Also before Adam an Eve sinned God warned them that if they eat from the tree they would “positively die”… He didn’t warn them about being thrown into hell and burning forever… Or that their souls will live on forever… That’s another reason we don’t in believe in hell.

But that’s it in a nutshell… The majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses is looking forward to living on earth forever as perfect humans… Most of us don’t have a desire to go to heaven

Jesus spoke many times about hell …Matt 25 40 - 46 “eternal fire.”

 

[iohannes13]

Tim_D;13294796:

Yes, that’s what I had said in the post that you quoted, which was misquoted as a quote of iohannes13’s. There seems to be an epidemic of misquotes here lately.

I didn’t misquote on purpose. I’m getting credit for posting everything for some reason.

 

[iohannes13]

That’s a misconception you have about Jehovahs witnesses… But I’d like to just give a brief over view of how we see this whole thing…

God’s original purpose was for perfect humans to live forever in paradise in a perfect world, if Adam and Eve didn’t sin then everyone else would of been perfect on earth now… Hence the Bible says “through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin”, if there was no sin there would be no death… God wanted humans to live forever on earth. Also if Adam didn’t sin then there would be no need for Jesus to come to earth because Jesus came to die for our sins if we were perfect and didn’t sin it wouldn’t be necessary for Jesus to do that… Since a perfect man Adam sinned God had to send someone perfect as a ransom so as to buy our sins back an that was Jesus. Perfect man for perfect man…
We also believe that God’s original purpose for perfect humans to live on a paradise earth forever has not changed, that is why we believe not everyone is going to heaven because it nullifies God’s original purpose for humans. Also before Adam an Eve sinned God warned them that if they eat from the tree they would “positively die”… He didn’t warn them about being thrown into hell and burning forever… Or that their souls will live on forever… That’s another reason we don’t in believe in hell.

But that’s it in a nutshell… The majority of Jehovah’s Witnesses is looking forward to living on earth forever as perfect humans… Most of us don’t have a desire to go to heaven

My experience has been that the JW evangelist pays for the reading materials that they pass out up front. Otherwise the Watchtower does not deliver them. The JW evangelist hands them out and at least for the hard cover books, asks for a donation. The donation requested is “whatever we want to give.” So they don’t even ask the cost of the book for the donation. So this person pays for the difference of the cost of the book. What happens to the collected donation for the book? Does it get forwarded to the Watchtower? If so, that means the JW evangelist is paying 100% of the reading materials they had out.

Also, JWs don’t believe in Hell because they don’t believe in a soul. And there is no point arguing theology with JWs using our Bibles. The Watchtower modified their Bible to match their teachings. So I’m sure there is no mention of Hell in them. And JWs won’t even look at your Bible because they have been lead to believe that your Bible has been corrupted by the Devil. You have to use the old Watchtower pamphlets. In the early 1900’s, the JW pamphlets taught that Jesus was God. Now they teach that He is St. Michael. Who was right, the people writing in the early 1900’s or the pamphlet authors today? Which one was leading your people astray to absolute death?