How much does liturgical and theological consistency weigh into your choice of church?

[Harpazo]

LOTS!

Left TEC in 2008 and will never look back. I’m a trained church musician (organist) so I take Liturgy and Theology very seriously. Started out RC and left mainly because of the horrible music and licenses taken by bishops, priests and laity to make it up as you go. Married in ELCA church but hopes were dashed quickly as liberal theology in Protestant churches is no different than liberal theology in Catholic churches in spite of dignified worship.

I’ve thought about Orthodox but believe their dietary laws are beyond the pale–I’d have a hard time giving up meat, oil, dairy for days on end. Happy in ACNA (Anglican) for now because we are taking “Evangelism” seriously—something the Orthodox churches are weak at.

What does evangelism matter if you don’t have the Apostolic Faith? Even Muslims evangelize. Just look on YouTube. Orthodox missions in the past have been weak due to Ottoman and Communist persecution, but it has been flourishing the past 20 years in America, but also in Europe and Africa. Asia has seen an explosion in Orthodoxy as well.

As for the fasting rules, it’s not for the sake of fasting, but to draw is into union with Christ by emptying ourselves to fill ourselves with God, denying our self-will to place our soul in authority of our body (instead of the other way around). It’s really a beautiful concept, but one that our modern world struggles with (myself included). But Christ did say “when you fast” NOT if you fast. It’s a struggle, but the Lord gives us grace if we try.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[Mickey]

I’ve thought about Orthodox but believe their dietary laws are beyond the pale–I’d have a hard time giving up meat, oil, dairy for days on end.

And when you fast, be not as the hypocrites, sad. For they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. But thou, when thou fastest anoint thy head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not to men to fast, but to thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret, will repay thee (Matt 6:16-18).

And when he was come into the house, his disciples secretly asked him: Why could not we cast him out? And he said to them: This kind can go out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting (Mark 9:27-28).****

Then came to him the disciples of John, saying: Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but thy disciples do not fast? And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast **
(Matt 9:14-15).**

“Here we should mention that fasting in the Orthodox Church has two aspects: physical and spiritual. The first one implies abstinence from rich food, such as dairy products, eggs and all kinds of meat. Spiritual fasting consists in abstinence from evil thoughts, desires, and deeds. The main purpose of fasting is to gain mastery over oneself and to conquer the passions of the flesh. It is to liberate oneself from dependence on the things of this world in order to concentrate on the things of the Kingdom of God. It is to give power to the soul so that it would not yield to temptation and sin” (Fr Milan).

 

[Nicea325]

I do not think so. You need to stop parroting everything you have been told and heard from bigoted people against the RCC. The Church of Rome did not separate herself by schism. Blame goes both ways and I suggest you read history. The Orthodox is NOT the only One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church because they too have major issues.

Not according to Catholic Answers. Besides, you are contradicting yourself if you say there is more than One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

In Christ,
Andrew

BTW we commemorated the Council of Nicaea this past Sunday in Orthodoxy.

On the contrary, this what Montalo stated:

*All the biblical passages are true, and the unity of Christ’s Church still exists today, and to that One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, otherwise known as the Orthodox Church *

Does it not convey of message that ONLY Orthodox meets those vitals?

 

[dzheremi]

The proof is most definitely in the pudding, Gurney.

I have been accused, and not just by RCs, of sometimes putting on rose-colored glasses when it comes to my learning about Orthodoxy. I do not see it that way, and to back that up I must disagree with the blanket statements I often hear from Orthodox (though I know the way they mean them, and find myself still in substantial agreement with them in terms of principle): The liturgies of the Orthodox churches are indeed very old and venerable and resistant to change, but I would not say that any given change is “off the table” but by the continued renewal and re-dedication of the people to their own orthodoxy. I know this seems like a silly and obvious thing to say, but I have noticed in the Coptic Orthodox circles in which I am traveling, such things cannot be taken for granted. The message from the bishops, the priests, and everyone in the position to carry any message is: Choose to be Orthodox every single day. I am sure this is a much needed message in the Diaspora, but it would work just as well for anyone who cares about the liturgical and theological consistency of their church (and everyone should; you don’t develop such things on your own). I would relate this back to Rawb’s truly excellent comment that he linked in his reply to this thread. You have to live what you say you believe. It’s not about just making a proclamation and then letting the chips fall where they may when it comes to the people receiving it. We can’t make our liturgical and theological lives into a game of “telephone”, which is unfortunately what has happened with the non-Orthodox churches.

The Roman Catholic Church and communion has changed so much in the past 50 years. But I can compare a Coptic Orthodox liturgy from the 1950s with a liturgy from a few months ago and find the only thing substantially improved is the recording quality. What else could be? It’s already perfect, as you say.

I know the Roman Pope wrote a book some time ago (that I read and enjoyed) about the Mass called “Sacred Then, Sacred Now”. It does not seem that the RCC lives by this principle. Lex orandi, lex credendi is invoked, but more as a salve for its own wounds than a statement of fact about its faith and practices. Very sad.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

And when you fast, be not as the hypocrites, sad. For they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Amen I say to you, they have received their reward. But thou, when thou fastest anoint thy head, and wash thy face; That thou appear not to men to fast, but to thy Father who is in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret, will repay thee (Matt 6:16-18).

And when he was come into the house, his disciples secretly asked him: Why could not we cast him out? And he said to them: This kind can go out by nothing, but by prayer and fasting (Mark 9:27-28).****

Then came to him the disciples of John, saying: Why do we and the Pharisees fast often, but thy disciples do not fast? And Jesus said to them: Can the children of the bridegroom mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then they shall fast
(Matt 9:14-15).****

“Here we should mention that fasting in the Orthodox Church has two aspects: physical and spiritual. The first one implies abstinence from rich food, such as dairy products, eggs and all kinds of meat. Spiritual fasting consists in abstinence from evil thoughts, desires, and deeds. The main purpose of fasting is to gain mastery over oneself and to conquer the passions of the flesh. It is to liberate oneself from dependence on the things of this world in order to concentrate on the things of the Kingdom of God. It is to give power to the soul so that it would not yield to temptation and sin” (Fr Milan).

I started fasting before I discovered Orthodoxy because I discovered in the Fathers that Christians fast. If there is one spiritual discipline that has changed my life, it is fasting. Christianity is no longer just a nice Sunday hobby.

When I discovered the extent to which the Orthodox fast, I felt challenged to explore Her more and learnt about theosis.

 

[elgar]

I started fasting before I discovered Orthodoxy because I discovered in the Fathers that Christians fast. If there is one spiritual discipline that has changed my life, it is fasting. Christianity is no longer just a nice Sunday hobby.

When I discovered the extent to which the Orthodox fast, I felt challenged to explore Her more and learnt about theosis.

I must say I admire those who can do this with consistency. There was a guy here in Iowa who went on a 46 day fast this past Lent and only drank ale for nourishment–NOTHING ELSE-- based on a medevial monastic custom. Made me think about a lot of things.

I remember the pre-V2 fasts of no meat on Fridays year long. I sure did learn to love fried fish, which by the way, is not giving anything up for seafood lovers. The other requirement was fasting after midnight on Saturday if one was planning on taking Communion the next morning. These are really whimpy compared to the Orthodox which the Catholic Church says in impaired relationship to them.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

The message from the bishops, the priests, and everyone in the position to carry any message is: Choose to be Orthodox every single day.

Great message. I think as long as our reference is the Fathers, we will not stray from the deposit of the faith.

My nemesis is progressive revelation, which both the RC and Protestant churches have embraced to a certain extent.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Being a vegetarian, I didn’t think twice about the Orthodox restrictions!

LOTS!

Left TEC in 2008 and will never look back. I’m a trained church musician (organist) so I take Liturgy and Theology very seriously. Started out RC and left mainly because of the horrible music and licenses taken by bishops, priests and laity to make it up as you go. Married in ELCA church but hopes were dashed quickly as liberal theology in Protestant churches is no different than liberal theology in Catholic churches in spite of dignified worship.

I’ve thought about Orthodox but believe their dietary laws are beyond the pale–I’d have a hard time giving up meat, oil, dairy for days on end. Happy in ACNA (Anglican) for now because we are taking “Evangelism” seriously—something the Orthodox churches are weak at.

 

[Bluegoat]

Being a vegetarian, I didn’t think twice about the Orthodox restrictions!

What I find most difficult about fasting is not so much the going without things I like, but the mental effort. Spending time having to plan and make room, and shop and so forth. Weekly it is not so bad but for Lent - I am really just tired by the end of it. And I really only fast from meat and alcohol, not dairy, eggs, or fish.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m not really a drinker. The last booze I had was knocking back a few San Miguel beers in the Philippines And since I’m a vegetarian, meat isn’t a problemo either.

What I find most difficult about fasting is not so much the going without things I like, but the mental effort. Spending time having to plan and make room, and shop and so forth. Weekly it is not so bad but for Lent - I am really just tired by the end of it. And I really only fast from meat and alcohol, not dairy, eggs, or fish.

 

[Mickey]

You have to live what you say you believe.

This is key…and not so easy.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m not really a drinker. The last booze I had was knocking back a few San Miguel beers in the Philippines And since I’m a vegetarian, meat isn’t a problemo either.

I wonder what you could fast from? Maybe baseball?

 

[Mickey]

I started fasting before I discovered Orthodoxy because I discovered in the Fathers that Christians fast. If there is one spiritual discipline that has changed my life, it is fasting. Christianity is no longer just a nice Sunday hobby.

When I discovered the extent to which the Orthodox fast, I felt challenged to explore Her more and learnt about theosis.

Oh yes my good friend. Holy Orthodoxy is an endless well of spiritual nourishment. The beautiful and ancient services; Vespers, Orthros, compline, royal hours, etc; The adherence to the fasting periods; The inner journey of The Great Fast (Lent) with the culmination of Holy week and Pascha; The feast day Liturgies (on the actual day–not moved to Sunday); The rich theology of apophaticism, hesychastic prayer, and theosis; The constant process of metanoia.

I could go on and on–but you get my drift. I sometimes find myself hoping for a very long life so that I can attempt to absorb more–but I know that 100 lifetimes would not be enough to absorb everything.

Have you ever experienced the full service of the Mystery of Holy Unction? Amazing!!!

Peace and prayers to you on your journey.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

 

[Mickey]

I must say I admire those who can do this with consistency.

The fasting discipline is something that must be eased into over time

There was a guy here in Iowa who went on a 46 day fast this past Lent and only drank ale for nourishment–NOTHING ELSE-- based on a medevial monastic custom.

Dangerous. This is why we must having a discerning spiritual father to guide us.

 

[Mickey]

Being a vegetarian, I didn’t think twice about the Orthodox restrictions!

Ah, but then you will have work on the other aspects of fasting–sometimes more difficult.

Are you vegan?

 

[Mickey]

And I really only fast from meat and alcohol, not dairy, eggs, or fish.

For whatever reason, dairy seems to be the most difficult for me. I love cheese!

 

[Mickey]

I wonder what you could fast from? Maybe baseball?

LOL! That might kill him!

 

[vsedriver]

I’m not necessarily saying scholasticism is evil or always bad. Personally terms like “transubstantiation” are fine with me. But it’s the excessive categorization and need to explain mysteries and make everything fit in the right slot that I don’t like. I don’t think it was necessarily a needed thing. The fact that Christians functioned for a millenium without it shows it isn’t a big woop really.

It became a necessary thing when the Church had to counter heresy. As for me… I’ll go with the guy Jesus gave the keys to. His chief steward on earth, Peter and Peter’s successor. I have great respect for the orthodox but Peter was singled out for more than honor by Christ Himself.

 

[lax16]

Looking at how much the Catholic Church has changed in liturgy with changing language, the priest oriented toward the people, incense disappearing by and large, female altar servers, eucharistic ministers, hand-holding during the Our Father, and all the liturgical abuses that take place across the world along with liturgical “dancers,” the Catholic Church has changed a lot. Theologically there has been great innovation as well with indulgences, purgatory, scholasticism, infallibility being proclaimed in the 1800’s, Marian dogmas developed etc.

The Anglican Church worldwide has gone into theological chaos with vast and varying beliefs on just about everything from human sexuality to female clergy to theological spiritual disagreements that make Anglicanism almost appear to have multiple religions within itself.

The same goes with Lutheranism and other Protestant groups…

The only group that has not gone into theological errors and in-fighting, speculation, liberalism, and liturgical abuse is the Orthodox Church.

I personally find the Orthodox way compelling because of the unspoiled nature of it despite the challenges of Communism and Islam that have surrounded it.

With Orthodoxy female altar servers aren’t even on the table and won’t be. There is no need to re-word anything like in Catholicism or re-work things. There is no need to reform the liturgy as it’s perfect and has always been so. There is no speculation that there might be female clergy or debates about the nature of sexuality and Christ Himself.

My question is, how much does “the proof is in the pudding” matter to each of you when choosing a church, which one is THE Church? Orthodoxy is so consistent. What say you all? Why not choose Orthodoxy when its liturgy and theology have such rock solid consistency and things are so firm and unchanging there? Why choose anything else? Is the proof in the pudding?

Hi gurney - These are great questions.

When you say orthodox - exactly what do you mean?

I know quite a few “orthodox” Catholics who are members of Opus Dei or some who attend Latin mass and one family really prefers the Byzantine Rite.

I am assuming you are meaning not “orthodox” Catholic but other?

If that is the case, I have a question re: Orthodox churches - was Peter their first pope and do they have one today? I have always wondered about this.

When I better understand what you mean by orthodoxy I will respond to the other parts of your post!

Great questions!

 

[JohnnyReb]

What I find most difficult about fasting is not so much the going without things I like, but the mental effort. Spending time having to plan and make room, and shop and so forth. Weekly it is not so bad but for Lent - I am really just tired by the end of it. And I really only fast from meat and alcohol, not dairy, eggs, or fish.

For me the difficulty does not lie with me, but with others in my family especially around the holidays and such, meal planning for me, and meal planning for them. Fasting is a wonderful discipline and its one I need to take up more. Its very biblical and grounded in tradition. I didn’t do well fasting in Lent this year either.

However in December I gave up smoking and that was a battle I fought for all during Lent, so I guess was doing something of benefit for good reasons-my health and to purify my body.