How Much is Rome Worth To You?

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You seem to not understand that the Eastern Churches don’t see things like you do. We do not see the Pope as the sole authority. We see all Churches as equal and having an equal voice. We do not speak of Rome as the voice of the whole Church. Rome was simply wrong with its superiority complex. It is that simple. They now recognize that all Churches are equal and they have said so. Vatican II is just as authoritative as Trent and more so than Pius V. It specifically says all Churches are equal.
If we could endeavor to be just that much more precise in our use of some terms and arguments. On another forum their is a gentleman who expounds with great aplomb on the Eastern Christian perspective. This would all be well and good if it weren’t for the fact that the East is a huge place, and there are a lot of different ways a lot of different people think on various and sundry matters.

From there, certitude about ecclesial equality is a wonderful thing, if understood in the correct light. At this time there seems to be a good deal of difference in how we are speaking of this equality. If meant to assert that there is no qualitative difference in the sacraments that makes on approach superior to another, that is great. If that is to assert that the Pope of Rome is “just another patriarch at best”… We are going to run into some disagreement in the thinking of us “Easterners”.
 
Dear all,

First of all, I would like to ask for prayers because I am experiencing a lot of family and legal problems right now, which is why I have not been here for a while. I have not even come onto the internet until the past two days. My response (two posts back) was a “tail end” shot - i.e., I did not read the original question, but simply responded to the last issue brought up.

Now, I have had a chance to read through the thread and realize what a serious question this is, and despite my off-line obligations, I feel this merits a serious response from me.

Brother Holdencaulfield, you have certainly brought up a quandary for me, an Oriental Orthodox who has come into communion with Rome and cherishes his Oriental Orthodox roots. I have thought about it long and hard and here is my conclusion and how I came to the conclusion:

First of all, I am of the opinion, as some here have expressed, that such a thing could NEVER happen. It would go against his divine obligation as established by the First Vatican Council that the Pope must uphold the proper and immediate authority of his brother bishops. I suppose, one could say that a Pope who does this is not being a Pope, as defined by the First Vatican Council. Could I remain in a Church headed by such a man?

After a lot of thought and prayer (treating this question very seriously). I voted — “I would remain Roman Catholic.” Why? Several very important reasons (at least very important to me)
  1. I did not join the Catholic communion on a whim. After three long years of serious study and prayer, the Holy Spirit has instilled in me the belief that the office of the papacy is OF DIVINE INSTITUTION. I do not use this phrase “Divine institution” lightly in this context. By it, I am saying that Jesus Himself established it, and not just the Apostles or apostolic men.
It is like when HH Pope JP2 of thrice-blessed memory insisted that he did not have the authority to ordain women. In fact, no earthly authority can cancel the office of the papacy.
  1. Schism is a sin, no matter what reason a person (or group of persons) believes is the rationale for that schism. Since I believe the office of the papacy is of divine institution, and none of the other apostolic Churches claim it, then I cannot conscientiously align myself with those Churches. I must remain in the Church where the papacy exists. But why should I remain in a Church where the Pope is not even acting as the Pope according to what that selfsame Church teaches? That brings me to the third reason for my conclusion.
  2. Though I believe the office of the papacy is divine, I fully understand that those who hold the office are in the end only human. If they would commit such a sin as cancelling the Traditions of all the other Churches, THAT WOULD BE A REFLECTION ON THE MAN WHO HOLDS THE OFFICE, NOT THE OFFICE ITSELF, MUCH LESS THE CHURCH THAT POSSESSES THAT OFFICE.. Being that I understand that it is the man and not the office who is at fault, then I would pray that the next man who holds the office will cancel the wrong decision of his predecessor.
But can the next Pope undo such an action by his predecessor? The answer to that is my fourth reason, and it is a bit of a catch-22
  1. A Pope who cancels the Traditions of the other Churches is NOT making a DOGMATIC decision. He is making a CANONICAL decision. Thus, his successor can indeed cancel such an action. This answer has caused me not a little discomfort, for by it, I am admitting that my particular Traditions are not DIVINELY established in the same sense that the papacy is divinely established - i.e., they did not come from Jesus Himself. This is the first time I have ever had to face this question - this possibility, and I must painfully admit that my identity as a Coptic Christian in the end is not worth the sin of schism (when I say “identiy as a Coptic Christian,” I mean as the world perceives me; in my heart, I will always know and cherish my Coptic identity). .
  2. I would suffer a lot for remaining in such a Church, but, as an Oriental Christian, I am instilled with the belief that suffering is not wrong and that such suffering can have divine purpose if I offer it up to the Lord, which is what I would daily do. Surely, such offerings will be useful for the body of Christ, which is the Church.
In the end, the main consideration, I honestly, believe is this:

Far be it from me to heap sin upon sin. I cannot involve myself in the sin of schism when I believe a sin has been committed against me. I do not believe Christians today have a really deep appreciation of the seriousness of the sin of schism. The Lord says our unity ITSELF is to be a witness to the world that does not know Christ of the Truth that Christ has been sent by the Father. And Jesus has warned us that better that a man be thrown in the sea with a millstone around his neck rather than for one of us to mislead anyone away from the Lord because of our actions. I truly and sincerely believe the solution is to remain in that Church that possesses the divinely established office of the papacy, offer up your suffering (which will redound to many benefits for the Church), and pray that God (who is faithful) will restore things to order.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Dear all,

First of all, I would like to ask for prayers because I am experiencing a lot of family and legal problems right now, which is why I have not been here for a while. I have not even come onto the internet until the past two days. My response (two posts back) was a “tail end” shot - i.e., I did not read the original question, but simply responded to the last issue brought up.

Now, I have had a chance to read through the thread and realize what a serious question this is, and despite my off-line obligations, I feel this merits a serious response from me.

Brother Holdencaulfield, you have certainly brought up a quandary for me, an Oriental Orthodox who has come into communion with Rome and cherishes his Oriental Orthodox roots. I have thought about it long and hard and here is my conclusion and how I came to the conclusion:

First of all, I am of the opinion, as some here have expressed, that such a thing could NEVER happen. It would go against his divine obligation as established by the First Vatican Council that the Pope must uphold the proper and immediate authority of his brother bishops. I suppose, one could say that a Pope who does this is not being a Pope, as defined by the First Vatican Council. Could I remain in a Church headed by such a man?

After a lot of thought and prayer (treating this question very seriously). I voted — “I would remain Roman Catholic.” Why? Several very important reasons (at least very important to me)
  1. I did not join the Catholic communion on a whim. After three long years of serious study and prayer, the Holy Spirit has instilled in me the belief that the office of the papacy is OF DIVINE INSTITUTION. I do not use this phrase “Divine institution” lightly in this context. By it, I am saying that Jesus Himself established it, and not just the Apostles or apostolic men.
It is like when HH Pope JP2 of thrice-blessed memory insisted that he did not have the authority to ordain women. In fact, no earthly authority can cancel the office of the papacy.
  1. Schism is a sin, no matter what reason a person (or group of persons) believes is the rationale for that schism. Since I believe the office of the papacy is of divine institution, and none of the other apostolic Churches claim it, then I cannot conscientiously align myself with those Churches. I must remain in the Church where the papacy exists. But why should I remain in a Church where the Pope is not even acting as the Pope according to what that selfsame Church teaches? That brings me to the third reason for my conclusion.
  2. Though I believe the office of the papacy is divine, I fully understand that those who hold the office are in the end only human. If they would commit such a sin as cancelling the Traditions of all the other Churches, THAT WOULD BE A REFLECTION ON THE MAN WHO HOLDS THE OFFICE, NOT THE OFFICE ITSELF, MUCH LESS THE CHURCH THAT POSSESSES THAT OFFICE.. Being that I understand that it is the man and not the office who is at fault, then I would pray that the next man who holds the office will cancel the wrong decision of his predecessor.
But can the next Pope undo such an action by his predecessor? The answer to that is my fourth reason, and it is a bit of a catch-22
  1. A Pope who cancels the Traditions of the other Churches is NOT making a DOGMATIC decision. He is making a CANONICAL decision. Thus, his successor can indeed cancel such an action. This answer has caused me not a little discomfort, for by it, I am admitting that my particular Traditions are not DIVINELY established in the same sense that the papacy is divinely established - i.e., they did not come from Jesus Himself. This is the first time I have ever had to face this question - this possibility, and I must painfully admit that my identity as a Coptic Christian in the end is not worth the sin of schism (when I say “identiy as a Coptic Christian,” I mean as the world perceives me; in my heart, I will always know and cherish my Coptic identity). .
  2. I would suffer a lot for remaining in such a Church, but, as an Oriental Christian, I am instilled with the belief that suffering is not wrong and that such suffering can have divine purpose if I offer it up to the Lord, which is what I would daily do. Surely, such offerings will be useful for the body of Christ, which is the Church.
In the end, the main consideration, I honestly, believe is this:

Far be it from me to heap sin upon sin. I cannot involve myself in the sin of schism when I believe a sin has been committed against me. I do not believe Christians today have a really deep appreciation of the seriousness of the sin of schism. The Lord says our unity ITSELF is to be a witness to the world that does not know Christ of the Truth that Christ has been sent by the Father. And Jesus has warned us that better that a man be thrown in the sea with a millstone around his neck rather than for one of us to mislead anyone away from the Lord because of our actions. I truly and sincerely believe the solution is to remain in that Church that possesses the divinely established office of the papacy, offer up your suffering (which will redound to many benefits for the Church), and pray that God (who is faithful) will restore things to order.

Blessings,
Marduk
Your absense has been felt. May you have a speedy return. Prayers ascending for your intentions. Hope everything turns out okay for you.
 
Even though only 15 Eastern Catholics replied that they would join the Eastern Orthodox Church, it represents 34% of Eastern Catholics. I pray that this is not a true representation of the Eastern Catholic population. The liturgical rites are important, but they are not a reason to become apostate and join the Orthodox Church.

Have people gone mad? To leave the One, True, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, simply because your liturgical rite dissapears, is an abomination. Catholics need to recognize first that the Church is the only true Church founded by Christ, then realize that it is diverse, and that its liturgies are all equal in sacredness and importance. It is time to focus on our unity and the beauty of the universality of our Church. That is why we are called the Catholic Church, because it is universal. If you are going to leave out of your pride in your liturgical rite, then you have obviously failed to realize the most important and vital truths of the Church.

As for liturgy, the Catechism teaches:

1200 From the first community of Jerusalem until the parousia, it is the same Paschal mystery that the Churches of God, faithful to the apostolic faith, celebrate in every place. The mystery celebrated in the liturgy is one, but the forms of its celebration are diverse.

1202 The diverse liturgical traditions have arisen by very reason of the Church’s mission. Churches of the same geographical and cultural area came to celebrate the mystery of Christ through particular expressions characterized by the culture: in the tradition of the "deposit of faith,"67 in liturgical symbolism, in the organization of fraternal communion, in the theological understanding of the mysteries, and in various forms of holiness. Through the liturgical life of a local church, Christ, the light and salvation of all peoples, is made manifest to the particular people and culture to which that Church is sent and in which she is rooted. The Church is catholic, capable of integrating into her unity, while purifying them, all the authentic riches of cultures.68

1203 The liturgical traditions or rites presently in use in the Church are the Latin (principally the Roman rite, but also the rites of certain local churches, such as the Ambrosian rite, or those of certain religious orders) and the Byzantine, Alexandrian or Coptic, Syriac, Armenian, Maronite and Chaldean rites. In "faithful obedience to tradition, the sacred Council declares that Holy Mother Church holds all lawfully recognized rites to be of equal right and dignity, and that she wishes to preserve them in the future and to foster them in every way."69
 
To leave the One, True, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, simply because your liturgical rite dissapears, is an abomination.
We’re not talking simply about liturgical rites, however. We’re talking about Apostolic Churches, at least one of which has as much claim to being from Peter as Rome. Abolishing whole Apostolic Churches would be tantamount to denying the very Tradition of the Apostles themselves.

Rites have come and gone, or experienced significant changes; Apostolic Churches must not. This is just one of the problems with identifying entire Churches and Apostolic Traditions as “rites”, rather than giving them the dignity they deserve.

I myself would likely be in quite a difficult place if this took place as the question says, because I wouldn’t feel I had anywhere to turn at all. If the Pope did such a thing he would either need to be deposed as being insane and unfit, or all the Apostolic Churches would have demonstrated their inability to exist in a truly Apostolic and unified manner, and the Gates of Hell would have prevailed.

I wouldn’t go Orthodox, but I wouldn’t stay Catholic either. I’m not sure what would happen. 🤷

Peace and God bless!
 
So, aside from mardukm, who I think gave a very clear answer, why do the other Eastern Catholics in this thread choose to be in communion with the Pope rather than with the other four Patriarchs of the ancient Pentarchy?
 
So, aside from mardukm, who I think gave a very clear answer, why do the other Eastern Catholics in this thread choose to be in communion with the Pope rather than with the other four Patriarchs of the ancient Pentarchy?
I’d be seriously tempted to follow the example of Mel Gibson should the Pope somehow declair the most beautiful thing upon earth to be of no value. I would wait him out. Any pope who would do such a thing would not be a true pope and unless there was no way to get him to retire, I would.

CDL
 
So, aside from mardukm, who I think gave a very clear answer, why do the other Eastern Catholics in this thread choose to be in communion with the Pope rather than with the other four Patriarchs of the ancient Pentarchy?
Ummm, I do not believe that is the case.

I, while being a Ruthenian Cahtolic, attend a Melkite parish when I am at home. I believe that they can and do claim that they are in communion with one of the other four Patriarchs as the head of their Church is the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.
 
This is a hypothetical question. This is only for Eastern Catholics. Lets say that all of a sudden for no reason the Pope dissolved all Eastern Catholic Churches and made them abide by the Roman Rite. What would you do? Would you stay in the Roman Catholic Church or leave?
This is a very bad thread and is completely lacking in Charity. You are only asking this to try to find a way to convince Eastern Catholics to leave the Catholic Church.
 
This is a hypothetical question. This is only for Eastern Catholics. Lets say that all of a sudden for no reason the Pope dissolved all Eastern Catholic Churches and made them abide by the Roman Rite. What would you do? Would you stay in the Roman Catholic Church or leave?
So you are inviting us to demonstrate our loyalty through hypotheticals?

If something that would never ever happen did you want us to give ammo to the polemicists who alternately would seize on either answer with derisive aplomb.

If someone were to say “We would stay in the Roman Rite” it just invites the derision of folks who would seize on it to say “see, you are not really committed Easterners”

If someone were to say “We would enter an Orthodox national church” it just invites the derision of folks who would seize on it to say “You aren’t that loyal and committed to being Catholic.”

What good were you thinking would come of such a pedantic and hypothetical question with no good answer about an improbably situation?

Are you wanting to feel out how “really” Catholic we are, or seeing how “really” Eastern we are?

Poor form.
 
So, aside from mardukm, who I think gave a very clear answer, why do the other Eastern Catholics in this thread choose to be in communion with the Pope rather than with the other four Patriarchs of the ancient Pentarchy?
First the Pentarchy, it is a glorious but untenable non-working institution. The idea that it was some gold standard of some “undivided church” is not founded in history, AT ALL. From the time of the Pauline Epistles to this very day, there have been parties in schism, there was NO time in the history of Christianity when all the baptized were united in faith. Most of the notable early heresies and the schismatic communities that adhered to them are in the dust. (There is a reason for that.)

Founded for political reasons the pentarchy was never a practical working reality. It was a creation of man indisputably, having no foundation in scripture or tradition. It is no more mandated than the college of cardinals or national patriarchates.

Recognizned in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, the sees that were included are:
  • Patriarch of Rome
  • Patriarch of Constantinople
  • Patriarch of Alexandria
  • Patriarch of Antioch
  • Patriarch of Jerusalem
But here is the deal, WHO decides WHICH claimant to an ancient patriarchal see is a Pentarch? Who determines which party is the legitimate claimant of a patriarchal (pentarchal) see?

Long before the Latins created a “Latin Patriarch of Constantinople” (now abolished) or a “Coptic Catholic Patriarchate of Alexandria” or the “Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem,” the pro-Chalcedonian bishops of the Hellenic colonies in, Antioch, and Alexandria, had taken patriarchal dignities for themselves. No ecumenical council had confirmed this. Today, in the 21st century, the Greek Orthodox Alexandrian Patriarchate is enjoying an all-time high of adherents at around 300,000. The Coptic patriarch counts some 6M+ souls. Both claim to be rightful heirs of the Patriarchal See of Alexandria, the throne of St. Mark. In Jersualem there are at least FOUR patriarchs today claiming the see: Armenian, Greek & Latin! (The deposed Greek patriarch still claims he is the rightful patriarch so there are two claimants today to this Greek see.)

By the time of the Pentarchy’s creation, the Assyrian Church of the East in the Persian Empire and the Oriental Orthodox (Copts & Syrians) were out the door. Who was left in those Oriental sees save the Greek bishops who were then fancied to be the Patriarchs there…

The Pentarchy, like the College of Cardinals, was a creation of the church, not something handed down by Christ Himself.

By the time of 1054, the members of the Pentarchy cited by the EO were in fact the Greek Patriarch in Constantinople, and his the bishops of the Hellenic communities (mostly trading colonies) in Alexandria & and Antioch set up to rival the non-Chalcedonian bodies.

My point? Well to be fair and compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges, is it fair or accurate to paint a picture of a solitary Roman patriarch breaking communion with 4 undivided historic Eastern sees? In my view or history it is more accurate to say that when the Constanipolitan and the Roman patriarchs (once again) suffered the indignity of schism in 1054 (*), it was between those TWO sees and the Hellenic bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria & Antioch sided rather naturally with the Byzantine elder brother – the patriarch of the imperial city of the Greek empire. Not exactly four neutral and equally powerful parties there.

From Wikipedias entry on the Pentarchy (emphasis mine):
…See of Alexandria is the principal see of Oriental Orthodoxy. Each of the Eastern sees is the seat of patriarchs from more than one of the ***Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox ***and Catholic churches.
Three patriarchs now claim to hold this office as Saint Mark’s successor: the Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Alexandria, and the Coptic Catholic Patriarch of Alexandria.
Two claim the title of Patriarch of Constantinople: the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople and the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople.
For the five claimants to the patriarchate of Antioch… ***Syriac Orthodox Church, which is part of the Oriental Orthodox ***communion… and Ignatius IV is the leader of the Antiochian Orthodox Church,
My allegiance to the Pope of Rome isn’t based on his see having made the list in 451 of sees that Chalcedone opted to call “the Pentarchy”. That is a later construction and an expedience.
 
Ummm, I do not believe that is the case.

I, while being a Ruthenian Cahtolic, attend a Melkite parish when I am at home. I believe that they can and do claim that they are in communion with one of the other four Patriarchs as the head of their Church is the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East.
I suppose this becomes a question of which claimant to a patriarchal seat one is going to recognize.
First the Pentarchy, it is a glorious but untenable non-working institution. The idea that it was some gold standard of some “undivided church” is not founded in history, AT ALL. From the time of the Pauline Epistles to this very day, there have been parties in schism, there was NO time in the history of Christianity when all the baptized were united in faith. Most of the notable early heresies and the schismatic communities that adhered to them are in the dust. (There is a reason for that.)

Founded for political reasons the pentarchy was never a practical working reality. It was a creation of man indisputably, having no foundation in scripture or tradition. It is no more mandated than the college of cardinals or national patriarchates.

Recognizned in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon, the sees that were included are:
  • Patriarch of Rome
  • Patriarch of Constantinople
  • Patriarch of Alexandria
  • Patriarch of Antioch
  • Patriarch of Jerusalem
But here is the deal, WHO decides WHICH claimant to an ancient patriarchal see is a Pentarch? Who determines which party is the legitimate claimant of a patriarchal (pentarchal) see?

Long before the Latins created a “Latin Patriarch of Constantinople” (now abolished) or a “Coptic Catholic Patriarchate of Alexandria” or the “Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem,” the pro-Chalcedonian bishops of the Hellenic colonies in, Antioch, and Alexandria, had taken patriarchal dignities for themselves. No ecumenical council had confirmed this. Today, in the 21st century, the Greek Orthodox Alexandrian Patriarchate is enjoying an all-time high of adherents at around 300,000. The Coptic patriarch counts some 6M+ souls. Both claim to be rightful heirs of the Patriarchal See of Alexandria, the throne of St. Mark. In Jersualem there are at least FOUR patriarchs today claiming the see: Armenian, Greek & Latin! (The deposed Greek patriarch still claims he is the rightful patriarch so there are two claimants today to this Greek see.)

By the time of the Pentarchy’s creation, the Assyrian Church of the East in the Persian Empire and the Oriental Orthodox (Copts & Syrians) were out the door. Who was left in those Oriental sees save the Greek bishops who were then fancied to be the Patriarchs there…

The Pentarchy, like the College of Cardinals, was a creation of the church, not something handed down by Christ Himself.

By the time of 1054, the members of the Pentarchy cited by the EO were in fact the Greek Patriarch in Constantinople, and his the bishops of the Hellenic communities (mostly trading colonies) in Alexandria & and Antioch set up to rival the non-Chalcedonian bodies.

My point? Well to be fair and compare apples to apples, oranges to oranges, is it fair or accurate to paint a picture of a solitary Roman patriarch breaking communion with 4 undivided historic Eastern sees? In my view or history it is more accurate to say that when the Constanipolitan and the Roman patriarchs (once again) suffered the indignity of schism in 1054 (*), it was between those TWO sees and the Hellenic bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria & Antioch sided rather naturally with the Byzantine elder brother – the patriarch of the imperial city of the Greek empire. Not exactly four neutral and equally powerful parties there.
Great post. I quite agree.
My allegiance to the Pope of Rome isn’t based on his see having made the list in 451 of sees that Chalcedone opted to call “the Pentarchy”. That is a later construction and an expedience.
So, the Pope of Rome does have an important role in the Church, perhaps based on that whole “Though art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church” and all that?

What interests me is that some Eastern Catholics seem to choose allegiance to the Pope, even though they believe he is teaching all sorts of heresies, while they do not choose allegiance to the Orthodox Patriarchs, whom they believe to be teaching the pure, undefiled Christian faith. It just seems odd to an outside observer, that is all.

God bless!
 
some Eastern Catholics seem to choose allegiance to the Pope, even though they believe he is teaching all sorts of heresies
:rolleyes: OK let’s get it straight:

Who, if anyone, among Greek Catholics believe that the Pope “is teaching all sorts of heresies”? Please identify the heresies.
… It just seems odd to an outside observer, that is all.
That is all - or is there more elsewhere?

djs
 
So, the Pope of Rome does have an important role in the Church, perhaps based on that whole “Though art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church” and all that?
BINGO!

You said in one sentence what I took 25 to say.

All well and good that the successor to Saint Peter is styled a Patriarch or joins in a “Pentarchy” or whichever… My loyalty is based on the Petrine nature, not patriarchal nature, of the bishop of Rome.
 
What interests me is that some Eastern Catholics seem to choose allegiance to the Pope, even though they believe he is teaching all sorts of heresies, while they do not choose allegiance to the Orthodox Patriarchs, whom they believe to be teaching the pure, undefiled Christian faith. It just seems odd to an outside observer, that is all.
It seems as odd to a Roman as the situation in some Roman parishes seem to your average Greek Catholic. That is to say - being that our very existence (which is complicated to begin with) - is predicated on a high view of Rome and the papacy… We see some of these cafeteria Catholics in Roman parishes not appreciate the papacy, its role, its authority and we think to ourself “What is going on?” Most of our Martyrs would have done far better in this vale of tears had they renounced Rome, our path in the US might have been easier for a time, our situations would be all together different if we didn’t - by and large - affirm the high view of the papacy. And yet here we see Romans that want to be Episcopalians and often we are stuck somewhere between shocked, insulted and aghast. If it meant as some of them would like to say, boy is our face red for sticking it out!

Conversely the squeaky wheels get the grease - or get replaced! And the provacative Greek Catholics who want to adopt modern contrarian “anti-Western” schools of thought will always get noticed more and their POV will be discussed. But (1) how tenable is their position and (2) how representitive are they?

My cantor is a convert from Judaism, can chant in English, Slavonic, Greek and Hebrew. She cantors weddings for Greek Orthodox. Pray you never face her in a “chant off”, you will go down. HARD.

My priest is a gentleman and a scholar. He is much respected and admired by Latin & Byzantine Catholics as well as personal friends with a good number of Orthodox clergy. He paints beautiful icons, he has forgotten more than I can remember.

My deacon is a convert from Methodism, a Greek Catholic by choice he loves our Church and serves it well.

What two things do these three all have in common? The support and affirm the papacy, and they refuse to waste any time in online forums because they see everything they have experienced as contentious and opportunity for sin and despair. The best of us have left the net to the rest of us. (And I write this self-reflectively… I have come close to giving up forums for fear of having to answer on Judgement day for lack of charity and futility of effort better spent elsewhere.)

Long point short? The contrarians make the headlines, the faithful Catholics are too busy just keeping parishes going and trying to pass on the faith.

Don’t go thinking the folks making the most outrageous claims are typical.
 
It’s really not a possibility. But if it were I would assume that the RC had fallen into heresy and the only option would be to Dox.

CDL
Because such a decree woud render null and void many of the papal proclimations on the matter, I would presume the pope in question had gone mad, and was leading the church down the heretic path.

I would also hope the Cardinals would do something about said pseudo-pope. If they didn’t, I would go outside the church. Possibly ACROD, Possibly OO, possibly OCA, possibly ACE.

Then again, I suspect many hierarchs would go, as well, and if mine did, I would go with.
 
I am always Catholic first. The only possible way that I’d be anything, but Catholic, is if the Church, itself, dissolved (which can never happen). In that implausible scenario, I would have to be Orthodox (before I’d *ever *consider any denomination of Protestantism).

And while, of course, I view the Orthodox Church (as the Catholic Church does) in validity and apostolicity, I would **never **consider leaving the Papacy of Peter and its authority and continuity–as, I firmly believe that the chair of Peter was created by Jesus Himself, without doubt…and intended for the Church.

I am a Byzantine Rite Catholic (raised Latin Rite, but my brother is a byz Cath priest)…and I fell in love with the rite, and feel perfectly at home, as if it were meant for me.

But, if (hypothetically) all Eatern rites were dissolved, I would have to stay with the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. That’s a given.
 
This is a hypothetical question. This is only for Eastern Catholics. Lets say that all of a sudden for no reason the Pope dissolved all Eastern Catholic Churches and made them abide by the Roman Rite. What would you do? Would you stay in the Roman Catholic Church or leave?
I have been advised by my Spiritual Father that if I were to move to another area which did not have a Melkite Catholic Church that I could get to and there were no other Eastern Catholic Churches, I should go to an Eastern Orthodox Church rather than ever go to a Roman Catholic Church.

The reason is simple. Our Faith and our Traditions are Orthodox not Roman.

Our Patriarch is currently in union with Rome and so we are too. This could change, as it has in past, at some point. We must hold on to our Faith regardless of what the People at the Top are doing.
 
This is a hypothetical question. This is only for Eastern Catholics. Lets say that all of a sudden for no reason the Pope dissolved all Eastern Catholic Churches and made them abide by the Roman Rite. What would you do? Would you stay in the Roman Catholic Church or leave?
I don’t believe he coul even do this…it would go against sacred tradition I beleive. If that happened, I’d be tempted to go from the Latin Rite to the Orthodox Church. I’m just glad I haven’t been challenged to that yet. I’ve already jumped ship once thinking I’d burn in hell if I remained Catholic. I won’t leave again unless I freely decide to participate in the Divine Liturgy over Mass. Then I woould transfer my rite from Latin to Byzantine Catholic.
 
That is a good point. The Eastern Churches have always existed, so they must always exist, this is Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church. To destroy them would mean that the Pope has fallen into heresy and lost the Catholic faith. Although they are much smaller then they used to be, they still exist nonetheless.
I didn’t read through until just now…this is what I was pointing out. The Pope would have to be declared a heretic and “thrown out” so to speak.
 
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