How Much is Rome Worth To You?

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Dear sister Byzgirl,
P.S.

Please don’t think that I hold to any thought that all Eastern rite Catholics should be assimilated or ‘latinized’, as I don’t. But it’s interesting to note that some eastern rite Catholics have an absolute aversion to the mere thought of ‘having to go to a Latin Rite Church’ --in the extremely unlikely event that they would, indeed, have to-- but that they would ‘rather’ go to an Orthodox Church (without any thought to what makes them Catholic besides 'being in union with the Pope). Perhaps the ‘ethnic’ divide answers the question as to ‘what else makes us Catholic’?
I applaud your sentiments. Eastern ecclesiology emphasizes Eucharistic communion as the basis for unity. If Eastern Catholics are consistent, all they would really think about if this impossible situation happens is “does the Latin Church still have a valid Eucharist at which I can obtain the medicine of immortality?” The answer of course would be “yes.” If Eastern Catholics make any other criterion their basis for uniting or leaving the Catholic Church if this impossible scenario occurs, then I guess this notion of Eucharistic unity is not really the true standard?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
"Nationalism plays a much larger role in Orthodox Churches than it does in the Western Church. In fact, I’ve that say an Orthodox person living in America won’t attend any Orthodox Church his own ethnic Church. For example a Slovenian Orthodox will forgo the sacraments rather than go to a Greek Orthodox Church or a Russian Orthodox Church, even thought these Churches are in Communion with another.
You know, the EP has been working hard under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to stem the tide of nationalism within Eastern Orthodoxy. I think he even stated that it is a heresy (someone correct me if I’m wrong). But many refuse to heed his teaching. The Syrian Orthodox also reject nationalism in the context of ecclesiology as a heresy. In Coptic Orthodox circles, it is not exactly considered a heresy, but HH Pope Shenoute has definitely spoken out against it.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Why are you Catholic, then? If the unity is based on the Chair of Peter, and the unity is broken, will you follow Peter or not? That’s the question. Not whether you ‘feel’ more Eastern than Latin. Besides, you don’t become ‘Latin’. What makes someone ‘Latin’? We’re Catholic. That’s our designation. If you aren’t talking about eastern smells and bells, then what else makes you Catholic?
I can only speak for myself, but I think the very nature of the question as originally posed is the main problem for the topic.

The more I think about it, the more I think that if such a situation were to occur it would be imperative for Eastern Catholics to remain Eastern and Catholic, whether the Catholic Church recognized it or not. 😛

By that I mean keeping the same policies and beliefs, and waiting for the Pope to come around again. Not leaving for the Orthodox (though worshiping in the Orthodox Churches, while remaining Catholic, wouldn’t be out of the question I think, though that would only be necessary where there wasn’t a substantial Eastern Catholic community), and not abandoning the Faith, but rather insisting that the Eastern Catholic Churches still exist and aren’t going anywhere. It wouldn’t be unlike the recent case of Mar Bawai Soro’s Assyrian diocese that confirmed itself as Catholic for years until the Catholic Church finally recognized it and “brought them in”. It’s hard to turn people away when they’re clamoring that they DO uphold the Catholic Faith and honor the Pope of Rome, thank you very much. I think that under such circumstances the Pope would have to come around.

As a Ukrainian priest said on another topic and forum, if the Eastern Catholic Churches didn’t exist, we’d have to create them. 😃

We’ll keep honoring the Petrine Ministry whether the Pope likes it or not! 👍

Peace and God bless!
 
Dear brother Ghosty,
The more I think about it, the more I think that if such a situation were to occur it would be imperative for Eastern Catholics to remain Eastern and Catholic, whether the Catholic Church recognized it or not. 😛
That is a wonderful solution. As I stated in my original answer in this thread a long time ago, even though I will be worshipping in a Latin Church, I will always remain Coptic in my heart.

Some people here think it not advisable for an Eastern/Oriental Christian to worship in the Latin Church for an overly long period of time (in the simply impossible and improbable situation that the OP presents). But I know God will not let my Tradition die. By the grace of the Holy Spirit, it will remain in my heart and mind, and in others’ as well, I’m certain, until that day that God will bring in a new head bishop that will renew the Traditions of East and Orient.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
As far as this Christian goes, I believe this concept of “rite” or particular “Church” in Heaven loses it meaning once we enter into the Beatific Vision. We will not hear the words “latinize”, “east”, “west”, etc.

I’m just happy to be part of the Church, even if I am suffering silently to all the abuses around me, or am surrounded by spiritually dead people.

That being said, as Mother Church encourages, we should all do our parts to maintain our traditions because we are all beautiful flowers in God’s Garden.

I am the Immaculate Conception - The Mother of God
 
For anyone interested, I thought I’d turn the tables and start a new poll on what Latin Catholics would do if the Pope decided to get rid of the Latin Tradition. It’s in the Apologetics Forum entitled “How Catholic are you?”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=252819

It should be an interesting read.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Hi Christy,

What you’re describing is reminiscent of the “dual communion” idea. (I say “reminiscent” because for it to actually be dual communion would mean that you were in full communion with your Patriarch, and he in full communion with the Pope, but without your being in full communion with the Pope.)
There is nothing wrong with the Western approach to Christianity as found in the Roman Church
I have a bit of difficulty reconciling this statement with the rest of what you been saying. In other words, I could understand if an EC said “The problem I have with the Latin Church is not so bad that I can’t be in full communion with her, but bad enough that I wouldn’t want to attend a Latin-rite mass (even if there were no EC liturgy available).” But you say that “There is nothing wrong with the Western approach to Christianity as found in the Roman Church”, so … :confused:
 
I am a Byzantine Rite Catholic, and love the Eastern rite (like it was made for me). **I was raised a Latin Rite Catholic, and have no ‘problem’ with it, precisely because I understand it to be the original Church. **
“the original Church”?

Um … okay, I’m not really sure what to say to that one.
 
Hi Christy,

What you’re describing is reminiscent of the “dual communion” idea. (I say “reminiscent” because for it to actually be dual communion would mean that you were in full communion with your Patriarch, and he in full communion with the Pope, but without your being in full communion with the Pope.)

I have a bit of difficulty reconciling this statement with the rest of what you been saying. In other words, I could understand if an EC said “The problem I have with the Latin Church is not so bad that I can’t be in full communion with her, but bad enough that I wouldn’t want to attend a Latin-rite mass (even if there were no EC liturgy available).” But you say that “There is nothing wrong with the Western approach to Christianity as found in the Roman Church”, so … :confused:
My Patriarch and the Roman Patriarch are in union with each other, since I am a member of my Patriarchate as a lay person, yes I am in union with Rome.
If I was alive about 600 years ago when the laypeople in the Melkite Church were not in union with Rome because our Patriarch was not in union with the Roman Patriarch.
And if I was alive 1200 years ago when the laypeople in the Melkite Church were in union with Rome because our Patriarch was in Union with Rome,
And if I was alive in 34 ad our Patriarch was not in union with Rome, because St. Peter and St. Paul had not gone there to establish it as a Patriarch yet.
My point is the Churches intercommunion with one another comes and goes on occasions for various reasons through history - that’s a matter to be dealt with between the Patriarchs, in the little picture of me and my salvation my focus needs to be overcoming my sins through the Mysteries of the Church: the reception of the Most Holy Eucharist, Confession, etc. and following the teachings of Christ: Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.
The Catholic Church recognizes the various approaches to Christianity: Melkite, Syrian, Roman, etc. who am I to say that one is “better” or “worse” than another, they are simply different. The Church has no problem with the differences, then why should I. There is no need to make a conflict when this is not one.
The Latin or Western approach is completely different than the Melkite or Eastern approach - our spirituality, liturgy, etc. Each approach was established by one of the Apostles - none of them are wrong and the Church is acknowledging the fact that the other approaches are wrong by the very fact that they are “in communion” with one another. The Latin/Western approach is a comfort or home to many, but not to me and not to many Eastern Catholics (although, I am sure that there are some Catholics who are “at home” in both).
Hope that helps to clarify.
Peace
 
Why are you Catholic, then? If the unity is based on the Chair of Peter, and the unity is broken, will you follow Peter or not? That’s the question. Not whether you ‘feel’ more Eastern than Latin. Besides, you don’t become ‘Latin’. What makes someone ‘Latin’? We’re Catholic. That’s our designation. If you aren’t talking about eastern smells and bells, then what else makes you Catholic?
Unity is not something the Roman Pope possess like a piece of property. We are all participants in the Body of Christ. As already said, it is certainly the case that Rome has a unique role, but it is not the whole Christ. We are happy to be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church, and if communion were broken between Rome and the Melkites it would be a sad and painful day.

But what makes us Catholic is that we are a Universal, Apostolic Church in which Christ is present in the Eucharist. What makes us different from Latin Christianity is that we have a history of our own, with its own theological development that is separate from that of the Latins. There is overlap at times, of course, but this is not identity.

Marduk points out that nationalism is a heresy and this is quite right. The EP has been especially vigorous in his attacks on this heresy and we are all grateful to him for it. [btw, Marduk has the most thoughtful and articulate response on this thread, I thought. No matter how much I disagree with it, I respect it greatly.] The issue here is not one of ethnos, but of nthos. It is one’s history and practices that makes one who one is. The Roman nthos is foreign.

Continuing that thought, Liturgy is first theology. Different Liturgy represents different theological traditions. Again, this does not mean there cannot be communion between two different Churches with different liturgical practices, but that is a matter of being able to recognize oneself, to a degree, in translation so to speak. Rome recognizes in the Melkites an adequate translation of its theological concerns and we recognize in Rome an adequate translation of our own. It is, nonetheless another language. (There are persons who are, to continue the analogy, bilingual and are equally at home in either language, but I think those persons are exceptional. From my brief impressions, maybe Ghosty and Marduk are such persons).

BUT, if communion were for some reason broken between Rome and the Melkite Church (and I think this is much less hypothetical than others appear to…Churches drift in and out of communion with one another all the time), I, to repeat, find it hard to imagine that we are suddenly going to all pack up and become Latins. In fact, even though we are out of communion at the moment with them, there is a large group who also share our history and practices, who speak the same theological-language we do and with whom we in point of fact share much more in common theologically. To practice the same Liturgy is to share a common First Theology. Melkites share a nearly identical First Theology with the Antiochene Orthodox Church, and beyond that a common history of theological reflection.

Lastly, to address Ghosty’s statement that Eastern Catholics, even if communion were broken, ought to remain Eastern Catholics contra la’lettre, so to speak: This is, in my opinion, almost precisely the position we are already in. All that would change is our orientation, but not our real situation. We are now a Church that insists that we are Antiochene and Orthodox, even if our Church is in communion with the Church of Rome. If communion were somehow tragically lost with Rome and we were to return to communion with the rest of Antiochene Orthodox, we would be the group that would be insisting that we are Catholic.

This is the role we find ourselves playing, is it not. We in the Eastern Catholic Churches are continually a reminder that the Body of Christ is painfully and scandalously broken. We are a liminal Church.

salaam.
 
My Patriarch and the Roman Patriarch are in union with each other, since I am a member of my Patriarchate as a lay person, yes I am in union with Rome.
If I was alive about 600 years ago when the laypeople in the Melkite Church were not in union with Rome because our Patriarch was not in union with the Roman Patriarch.
And if I was alive 1200 years ago when the laypeople in the Melkite Church were in union with Rome because our Patriarch was in Union with Rome,
And if I was alive in 34 ad our Patriarch was not in union with Rome, because St. Peter and St. Paul had not gone there to establish it as a Patriarch yet.
My point is the Churches intercommunion with one another comes and goes on occasions for various reasons through history - that’s a matter to be dealt with between the Patriarchs, in the little picture of me and my salvation my focus needs to be overcoming my sins through the Mysteries of the Church: the reception of the Most Holy Eucharist, Confession, etc. and following the teachings of Christ: Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.
The Catholic Church recognizes the various approaches to Christianity: Melkite, Syrian, Roman, etc. who am I to say that one is “better” or “worse” than another, they are simply different. The Church has no problem with the differences, then why should I. There is no need to make a conflict when this is not one.
The Latin or Western approach is completely different than the Melkite or Eastern approach - our spirituality, liturgy, etc. Each approach was established by one of the Apostles - none of them are **not **wrong and the Church is acknowledging the fact that the other approaches are wrong by the very fact that they are “in communion” with one another. The Latin/Western approach is a comfort or home to many, but not to me and not to many Eastern Catholics (although, I am sure that there are some Catholics who are “at home” in both).
Hope that helps to clarify.
Peace
 
I think she basically means St. Peter.
St. Peter established the Church in Antioch long before establishing the Church in Rome. So in reality (& historically speaking) there are two “Chairs of St. Peter” If unity is based on St. Peter’s Chair (never heard that terminology before) then it is based on both the Patriarchate of Antioch and the Patriarchate of Rome.

Just to complicate matters, at this very moment in time, there are two Patriarchates of Antioch, one which is in union with Rome and one that is in union with Constantinople and Alexandria.

Just a suggestion: Let’s leave the Church Politics to the Church Leaders so we can focus on our own Salvation - which is what will be the only thing that will matter once we each individually enter into eternity.
Peace
 
As a Ukrainian priest said on another topic and forum, if the Eastern Catholic Churches didn’t exist, we’d have to create them. 😃

We’ll keep honoring the Petrine Ministry whether the Pope likes it or not! 👍

Peace and God bless!
Not to get off on a tangent, but I am quite curious: does the priest you mentioned believe that the Union of Brest was a good idea?
 
I can only speak for myself, but I think the very nature of the question as originally posed is the main problem for the topic.

The more I think about it, the more I think that if such a situation were to occur it would be imperative for Eastern Catholics to remain Eastern and Catholic, whether the Catholic Church recognized it or not. 😛

By that I mean keeping the same policies and beliefs, and waiting for the Pope to come around again. Not leaving for the Orthodox (though worshiping in the Orthodox Churches, while remaining Catholic, wouldn’t be out of the question I think, though that would only be necessary where there wasn’t a substantial Eastern Catholic community), and not abandoning the Faith, but rather insisting that the Eastern Catholic Churches still exist and aren’t going anywhere. It wouldn’t be unlike the recent case of Mar Bawai Soro’s Assyrian diocese that confirmed itself as Catholic for years until the Catholic Church finally recognized it and “brought them in”. It’s hard to turn people away when they’re clamoring that they DO uphold the Catholic Faith and honor the Pope of Rome, thank you very much. I think that under such circumstances the Pope would have to come around.

As a Ukrainian priest said on another topic and forum, if the Eastern Catholic Churches didn’t exist, we’d have to create them. 😃

We’ll keep honoring the Petrine Ministry whether the Pope likes it or not! 👍

Peace and God bless!
Perhaps a quote from Saint Cyprian would suffice here. “You can’t have your cake and eat it too”. It’s not as if you simply ‘state that you are in union with the Pope and the Petrine Ministry’, but that you accept the authority of that Chair.
It’s not optional, (see the text from the Church’s canon law) to worship in an Orthodox Church, unless there is NO possible way to worship in a Catholic one.

The authority is the issue. And Catholics believe that the keys of the kingdom were given, in particular, to Peter (and found in the Catholic Church which continues Peter’s unique authority. this authority was not meant to “rule” over but rather “serve”. It is really not about power at all. You know what Jesus said with respect to that (last, first, etc), and how often Pope’s have failed at that admonition. That being said, our current Pope knows what it means to be the “servant of the servants of God” and is really trying to open up this discussion. We can do our part when we understand some of these issues better and can have an intelligent discussion in charity with others.

From Saint Cyprian…

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” ???

St. Cyprian, AD 251 The Unity of the Catholic Church

That is why I would not go, as a Byzantine Catholic, to an Orthodox Church, if a Latin Rite one were available.
 
Dear sister byzgirl,
From Saint Cyprian…

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ He says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven.’ And again He says to him after His resurrection: ‘Feed my sheep.’ On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” ???

St. Cyprian, AD 251 The Unity of the Catholic Church

That is why I would not go, as a Byzantine Catholic, to an Orthodox Church, if a Latin Rite one were available.
Well said. I just wanted to point out that St. Cyprian wrote two versions of this treatise. This one, which clearly upholds the Catholic understanding of the uniqueness of the chair of Peter, and another one, which downplays it, written after he had his disagreement with Pope St. Stephen. Interesting how the First Ecumenical Council sided with Pope St. Stephen on the issue. I’m sure St. Cyprian would have submitted himself to the decisions of an Ecumenical Council, and would have retracted his second version when he realized he was wrong.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
You know, the EP has been working hard under the guidance of the Holy Spirit to stem the tide of nationalism within Eastern Orthodoxy. I think he even stated that it is a heresy (someone correct me if I’m wrong). But many refuse to heed his teaching. The Syrian Orthodox also reject nationalism in the context of ecclesiology as a heresy. In Coptic Orthodox circles, it is not exactly considered a heresy, but HH Pope Shenoute has definitely spoken out against it.

Blessings,
Marduk
I’m a little confused. When you said that we just need greater mutual understanding, were you being facetious?
 
St. Peter established the Church in Antioch long before establishing the Church in Rome. So in reality (& historically speaking) there are two “Chairs of St. Peter” If unity is based on St. Peter’s Chair (never heard that terminology before) then it is based on both the Patriarchate of Antioch and the Patriarchate of Rome.

Just to complicate matters, at this very moment in time, there are two Patriarchates of Antioch, one which is in union with Rome and one that is in union with Constantinople and Alexandria.

Just a suggestion: Let’s leave the Church Politics to the Church Leaders so we can focus on our own Salvation - which is what will be the only thing that will matter once we each individually enter into eternity.
Peace
This is not Church politics, its obedience to authority…that given to Peter. There is only one Seat (Chair of Peter) as there was only one Seat (Chair of Moses). These are not bound by ‘geography’.

This two seats complication sounds like a very big side stepping, in order to explain away that unique authority and ignore some of its implications (“I want to be in union, in word only, and still maintain my right to do whatever I want, regardless of what “Rome” says”)…

excerpts from: bringyou.to/apologetics/num12.htm

There is no doubt that an objective study of the evidence yields the conclusion that the Catholic Church believed in Universal Primacy, had an Ecumenical center of unity and agreement in Rome, and the unanimous testimony of the Fathers and Councils demonstrates this – and to deny this is based purely on “anti-Roman prejudice” **
"Finally we come to the highest and ultimate form of primacy: universal primacy. An age-long anti-Roman prejudice has led some Orthodox canonists simply to deny the existence of such primacy in the past or the need for it in the present. But an objective study of the canonical tradition cannot fail to establish beyond any doubt that, along with local ‘centers of agreement’ or primacies,
the Church has also known a universal primacy**…

"It is impossible to deny that, even before the appearance of local primacies, the Church from the first days of her existence possessed an ecumenical center of unity and agreement. In the apostolic and the Judaeo-Christian period, it was the Church of Jerusalem, and later the Church of Rome – ‘presiding in agape,’ according to St. Ignatius of Antioch. This formula and the definition of the universal primacy contained in it have been aptly analyzed by Fr. Afanassieff and we need not repeat his argument here. Neither can we quote here all the testimonies of the Fathers and the Councils unanimously acknowledging Rome as the senior church and the center of ecumenical agreement.

“It is only for the sake of biased polemics that one can ignore these testimonies, their consensus and significance. It has happened, however, that if Roman historians and theologians have always interpreted this evidence in juridical terms, thus falsifying its real meaning, their Orthodox opponents have systematically belittled the evidence itself. Orthodox theology is still awaiting a truly Orthodox evaluation of universal primacy in the first millennium of church history – an evaluation free from polemical or apologetic exaggerations.” (Schmemann, page 163-164)

see also:
catholic.com/library/authority_of_the_pope_part_2.asp
"In this tract, we will see that the later popes and Church Fathers retained a similar understanding of the Petrine office. "
 
in the end, if you come to understand the full significance of the Seat of Peter you will come to see the answer to the dilemma that separates all Christians.
 
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