How much Latin to use in the Liturgy?

[Lux_et_veritas]

nianka:

Please, please, tell us where this parish is located!
nianka

Well, a little ways from you…it is in Metro Detroit. We are fortunate here that Cardinal Maida has allowed those Catholics who choose traditional liturgies and Latin to engage in them. There are several parishes in the Archdiocese of Detroit that offer this to varying degrees. Some offer a TLM, others offer the Novus Ordo with some Latin, and still others like mine, with lots of Latin. I don’t mind the Credo even being in Latin because I look over to the right on the opposite page and glance back and forth making word associations. It is so amazing how I’m starting to understand things I’m not looking at after doing this for 7 weeks daily now. Our 7:30 am Mass is offered in Latin too and it is one of three daily masses.

 

[kmktexas]

otm:

I have often said that if you want to hear a Mass in Latin and can’t find one nearby, go to one in Spanish, which is closer to Latin than English is. You probably can’t understand them in the sense of being able to speak either language.

and as for the practical standpoint of being able to understand it anywhere in the world in Latin, if you know and understand the parts of the Mass, and can recognize from the timing and position of the priest what part of the Mass he is saying, you can understand it in Swahili or Urdu just as well as you can understand it in Latin, since for almost all people, they cannot speak either Latin or the language (other than their own) in shich it is being said.

I agree, to a point. I spent 9 months in South America and was able to follow the Mass even though I don’t understand Spanish. The difference is that if everyone knew how to say the minimal prayers in Latin, we could not only follow along but we could also participate (in the new VII definition of that word) at Mass.

I think that the basic prayers everyone should know should also include the Confetior and the Credo in addtion to those listed in the poll.

Our parish “does” Latin every Lent. We say the Kyrie (Greek) Agnus Dei, O Lord I am not Worthy and the Memorial Acclimation in Latin. Being Lent, we don’t get to do the Gloria. Sometimes we do the Pater Noster as well and Father says the “through Him, with Him and in Him …” in Latin too. When Father started this, about 4 years ago, there was a large group of very angry parishioners and our music leader does everything she can to keep people confused so they can’t participate but there are more and more people who know the prayers.

The kids love it and love being able to sing the Latin verses of some of the hymns as well. (Adeste Fidelis and Panis Angelicum).

 

[otm]

kmktexas:

I agree, to a point. I spent 9 months in South America and was able to follow the Mass even though I don’t understand Spanish. The difference is that if everyone knew how to say the minimal prayers in Latin, we could not only follow along but we could also participate (in the new VII definition of that word) at Mass.

I think that the basic prayers everyone should know should also include the Confetior and the Credo in addtion to those listed in the poll.

Our parish “does” Latin every Lent. We say the Kyrie (Greek) Agnus Dei, O Lord I am not Worthy and the Memorial Acclimation in Latin. Being Lent, we don’t get to do the Gloria. Sometimes we do the Pater Noster as well and Father says the “through Him, with Him and in Him …” in Latin too. When Father started this, about 4 years ago, there was a large group of very angry parishioners and our music leader does everything she can to keep people confused so they can’t participate but there are more and more people who know the prayers.

The kids love it and love being able to sing the Latin verses of some of the hymns as well. (Adeste Fidelis and Panis Angelicum).

I really am not trying to beat a dead horse, but if one can “understand” the Latin and “learn” it, then one can also do the same for Spanish.

 

[kmktexas]

otm:

I really am not trying to beat a dead horse, but if one can “understand” the Latin and “learn” it, then one can also do the same for Spanish.

And in how many languages do we need to learn the Mass before we can travel and participate? The world isn’t just Spanish and English. Even in Houston, I think we have Mass said in at least a dozen languages. The point isn’t whether we could adapt to the Mass being said in another vernacular address. Rather, that is Catholics knew that minimum few prayers in the common language, the Official language of the Church, adapting would be much quicker where every one happens to be.

This is, by the way, one of the reasons given in the VII documents for keeping Latin usage and for the Bishops ensuring that Catholics know those common Mass prayers.

 

[Petertherock]

Although I chose no Latin I would say that I have no problem with at least one weekend mass being Latin. I think it’s important for the congregation to be paying attention during the Mass and having Mass in a language no one understands is pointless. As someone said, I don’t want to go back to the days of people praying the rosary during the Mass.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Petertherock:

Although I chose no Latin I would say that I have no problem with at least one weekend mass being Latin. I think it’s important for the congregation to be paying attention during the Mass and having Mass in a language no one understands is pointless. As someone said, I don’t want to go back to the days of people praying the rosary during the Mass.

Actually, when the text is across on the other side, there is no reason one wouldn’t know what is being said. That is how I’ve been picking up Latin and now recognize certain word combinations.

 

[otm]

kmktexas:

And in how many languages do we need to learn the Mass before we can travel and participate? The world isn’t just Spanish and English. Even in Houston, I think we have Mass said in at least a dozen languages. The point isn’t whether we could adapt to the Mass being said in another vernacular address. Rather, that is Catholics knew that minimum few prayers in the common language, the Official language of the Church, adapting would be much quicker where every one happens to be.

This is, by the way, one of the reasons given in the VII documents for keeping Latin usage and for the Bishops ensuring that Catholics know those common Mass prayers.

I can participate in a Mass in any language, although, I would submit, I can participate more fully in a language which I can speak.

It just so happens, I can only speak one language, and that is English.

I consider participation to be more than simply reciting a prayer such as the Sanctus, or the Creed, or the Lamb of God in Latin. I will agree that should I attend a Mass in Vietnamese, and they said one or more of those prayers in Latin, I could join in the recitation, and that would be more participation than I would have if it was all in Vietnamese, saving for the use of a missal. And had I a missal with me in English, I could participate more fully even though I understand no Vietnamese, as the prayers of, say, the Epiclesus are the same prayers whether they are in English, or Vietnamese, or Spanish, or Latin.

Thus I don’t agree that adaption would be quicker; I think that there would be minimal adaption at best.

 

[otm]

Lux_et_veritas:

Actually, when the text is across on the other side, there is no reason one wouldn’t know what is being said. That is how I’ve been picking up Latin and now recognize certain word combinations.

I agree that there is no reason one would not be able to know what is going on with a side-by-side translation.

However, if one is going to read all of what is being said, one has one’s nose in a book during the whole Mass. IMHO, it is much better to actually listen and immediately understand what is being said, and requires only one activity at a time - listening - rather than two activities at the same time - listening with “one ear” while reading at the same time.

Studies have been done which show that multi tasking produces lower overall results than does paying attention to one task at a time; one’s attention is not split.

And given that people generally can understand and comprehend much faster to the spoken word than the written word, particularly poor readers, there is much less frustration associated with falling behind if one hears it in a language one comprehends.

 

[steve99]

40% want it all in Latin at the time of posting. And people complain about charismatics praying in tongues!

Why do you all want to listen to gobbledegook?

Why do people want to go to Mass and not be able to understand the prayers that the priest says? They are wondeful to listen to. Sometimes our priest will stop after an sentence (say in the preface) and ask us to listen to that again.

 

[Livnlove55]

Yippee! I got the “right” answer! I picked the Gloria, Sanctus, Pater Noster and Agnus Dei and so far that is the leading response. The funny thing is I just told my pastor the other day that I hated it when our cantor sang the Gloria in Latin at our daily mass. I told him that the Gloria happens to be one of my favorite parts of the Mass and since I do not know it in Latin, I don’t like it when I can’t sing along. He asked me “You do know where it is in the missalette, don’t you? I bet you could learn it easily if you wanted to.”

And I knew he was right… It’s really just laziness on my part since I have already learned the much shorter and easier Sanctus and Agnus Dei and actually enjoy singing them in Latin. Makes this new convert feel more like a “real” traditional Catholic. But my excuse is that the Gloria and the Pater Noster are “way too long and complicated” and I can’t be bothered to learn them.

Even so, I picked that they should be sung in Latin since I think tradition is a good thing and hanging on to at least that much Latin would combine the best of the new and the old.

Actually, now that I’m thinking about it more, I think it should vary. Sometimes they should be in English, sometimes in Latin. And everyone should know both. Yep, that’s my “final answer.” :yup:
In His love,
Rhonda

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I voted for the Gloria, et al, simply to be obedient to the true teachings of the Council. I hope there is no return to a big part of the Mass being in Latin, as I think it is more important for the people to be able to understand than anything else. That said, I will admit we need better translations.

 

[steve99]

Livnlove55:

Yippee! I got the “right” answer! I picked the Gloria, Sanctus, Pater Noster and Agnus Dei and so far that is the leading response. The funny thing is I just told my pastor the other day that I hated it when our cantor sang the Gloria in Latin at our daily mass. I told him that the Gloria happens to be one of my favorite parts of the Mass and since I do not know it in Latin, I don’t like it when I can’t sing along. He asked me “You do know where it is in the missalette, don’t you? I bet you could learn it easily if you wanted to.”

And I knew he was right… It’s really just laziness on my part since I have already learned the much shorter and easier Sanctus and Agnus Dei and actually enjoy singing them in Latin. Makes this new convert feel more like a “real” traditional Catholic. But my excuse is that the Gloria and the Pater Noster are “way too long and complicated” and I can’t be bothered to learn them.

Even so, I picked that they should be sung in Latin since I think tradition is a good thing and hanging on to at least that much Latin would combine the best of the new and the old.

Actually, now that I’m thinking about it more, I think it should vary. Sometimes they should be in English, sometimes in Latin. And everyone should know both. Yep, that’s my “final answer.” :yup:
In His love,
Rhonda

You may learn it in Latin, but are you understanding what you are singing. You could learn to say prayers parrot fashion in Latin, French, Swahili or whatever, but what profit is that unless you understand what you are saying or singing. I can sing Salve Regina after night prayer but it I might as well be singing a limerick. I can’t pray it because I don’t know what it means. Yes I do know it’s Hail Holy Queen - now if I say that I can pray the words as I say it. Same with Angnus Dei etc.
I don’t understand this obsession with Latin, but I guess that’s me. I seem to be in a minority here.

 

[Livnlove55]

steve99:

You may learn it in Latin, but are you understanding what you are singing. You could learn to say prayers parrot fashion in Latin, French, Swahili or whatever, but what profit is that unless you understand what you are saying or singing. I can sing Salve Regina after night prayer but it I might as well be singing a limerick. I can’t pray it because I don’t know what it means. Yes I do know it’s Hail Holy Queen - now if I say that I can pray the words as I say it. Same with Angnus Dei etc.
I don’t understand this obsession with Latin, but I guess that’s me. I seem to be in a minority here.

Have you never learned another language? Or at least phrases or words of another language? I don’t quite understand why you think I wouldn’t understand what I was singing, assuming I was able to learn it in Latin. Literal translations of the Latin are easily available on the Internet. For example, here:

shrinesf.org/mass.htm

And once you have the translation, it is honestly not that difficult to figure out what the individual Latin words mean. I would not be “parroting” meaningless words. I know this for a fact since I do already know the Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin and I most definitely know what I am singing when I sing those. “Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus” = “Holy, Holy, Holy” “Agnus Dei” = “Lamb of God”, etc. etc.

Now I don’t deny that there may be many who wouldn’t bother to do that and who would just “parrot” the words (assuming they sang them at all…) But my guess is those are the same people who already “parrot” the English responses without paying much attention to their meaning.

BTW, just so you know, I personally have absolutely no “obsession” with Latin. Just because I think that it wouldn’t hurt to have a few parts of the Mass in Latin once in a while doesn’t mean I am obsessed

I am curious about your adversion to Latin, though… Are you aware of the reasons why the Church even has an official language and why that language is Latin? It might help you get over your objections if you took the time to investigate those reasons.
In His love,
Rhonda

 

[oat_soda]

the best thing about latin is that it is offical. when you translate the officially promulgated latin text laid down by the church it may under go a subjective interpretation of the words. icel has done a horrible job bordering on the satanic on translating the mass. look at what they did to the confiteor or the canon. it is a real shame to not hear the full beauty of the words.

icel translation

We come to your, Father, with praise and thanksgiving, through Jesus Christ your Son. Through him we ask you to accept and bless these gifts we offer you in sacrifice. We offer them for your holy catholic Church, watch over it, Lord, and guide it; grant it peace and unity throughout the world. We offer them for {Benedict} our Pope, for {name of Bishop in your diocese} our bishop, and for all who hold and teach the catholic faith that comes to us from the apostles.

more literal translation

Therefore, most gracious Father, we humbly beg of You and entreat You through Jesus Christ Your Son, Our Lord. Hold acceptable and bless** **these gifts, these offerings, these holy and unspotted oblations which, in the first place, we offer You for your Holy Catholic Church. Grant her peace and protection, unity and guidance throughout the worlds, together with Your servant (name), our Pope, and (name), our Bishop; and all Orthodox believers who cherish the Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

 

[steve99]

oat soda:

the best thing about latin is that it is offical. when you translate the officially promulgated latin text laid down by the church it may under go a subjective interpretation of the words. icel has done a horrible job bordering on the satanic on translating the mass. look at what they did to the confiteor or the canon. it is a real shame to not hear the full beauty of the words.

Good grief. I thought you are right it is horrible - then I realised that the horrible one is the literal translation. It’s not even proper English, and what’s these oblations?
I don’t know which is more accurate to the Latin original, but I know which flows and is understandable (the ICET one in case you are not sure to which I am referring).

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - or in the ear of the beholder in this case.

 

[Pug]

While I’m at it, I wish the credo, gloria, etc were in Latin and sung. There is so much lovely music written by Mozart, Schubert, etc. for those. I still sing them in my head at times…

 

[totustuusmaria]

I think that there should be limited use of the vernacular. This can vary, but certin parts should always be in latin in order to show the universality of the Church. The kyrie should always be in Greek too.

 

[steve99]

Livnlove55:

Have you never learned another language? Or at least phrases or words of another language? I don’t quite understand why you think I wouldn’t understand what I was singing, assuming I was able to learn it in Latin. Literal translations of the Latin are easily available on the Internet. For example, here:

shrinesf.org/mass.htm

And once you have the translation, it is honestly not that difficult to figure out what the individual Latin words mean. I would not be “parroting” meaningless words. I know this for a fact since I do already know the Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin and I most definitely know what I am singing when I sing those. “Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus” = “Holy, Holy, Holy” “Agnus Dei” = “Lamb of God”, etc. etc.

Now I don’t deny that there may be many who wouldn’t bother to do that and who would just “parrot” the words (assuming they sang them at all…) But my guess is those are the same people who already “parrot” the English responses without paying much attention to their meaning.

BTW, just so you know, I personally have absolutely no “obsession” with Latin. Just because I think that it wouldn’t hurt to have a few parts of the Mass in Latin once in a while doesn’t mean I am obsessed

I am curious about your adversion to Latin, though… Are you aware of the reasons why the Church even has an official language and why that language is Latin? It might help you get over your objections if you took the time to investigate those reasons.
In His love,
Rhonda

I’m not against Latin as such. As a language for original church documents it is probably the best there is. Not because of anything inherent in the language but because it is dead, and therefore less likely to change the meanings of words over time then any other.

But how many people can speak fluently in Latin, think in Latin, i.e. bilingual? Probably only a small percentage of the clergy even (mainly concentrated in Rome). I know a priest who is 87 and did all his seminary training in Latin. He says he can only read Thomas Aquinas in Latin. But the vast majority of the world’s 1 billion catholics are not like that.

Sure, given enough effort on my part I could learn the translation of some common prayers into English, but that’s all it would be. To get anything out of such prayers I would have to be conducting a simulaeneous translation in my head whilst trying to take in the meaning of the words I have translated from the Latin. I think this is an impossible task - and quite pointless.

Every time I go to Mass I am reminded of many things. When (for example) we say the “Our Father” I am reminded that I need to forgive others in order to receive forgiveness myself. It just wouldn’t be possible to do this whilst trying to translate from the Latin into English before I could understand the words.
If the priest is saying a prayer in Latin (say the preface) I could read the English version in an English missal. But then I have detached myself from what is going on in the Mass and gone into private reading. Its not much better in my opinion than saying the rosary during Mass.

If people want to say private prayers in Latin (or in any language) that is up to them. But why exclude the vast majority from taking part in some parts of the Mass and from understanding the words that are being said?

 

[oat_soda]

Good grief. I thought you are right it is horrible - then I realised that the horrible one is the literal translation. It’s not even proper English, and what’s these oblations?
I don’t know which is more accurate to the Latin original, but I know which flows and is understandable (the ICET one in case you are not sure to which I am referring).

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - or in the ear of the beholder in this case.

this isn’t a subjective argument. it’s not icel job to interpret the latin, but to translate it faithfully. if you don’t know what an oblation is why don’t you look it up in a dictionary? or would you rather hold everyone down to the lowest denominator?

it is not just me saying this but the vatican

20… In order that such a rich patrimony may be preserved and passed on through the centuries, it is to be kept in mind from the beginning that the translation of the liturgical texts of the Roman Liturgy is not so much a work of creative innovation as it is of rendering the original texts faithfully and accurately into the vernacular language. While it is permissible to arrange the wording, the syntax and the style in such a way as to prepare a flowing vernacular text suitable to the rhythm of popular prayer, the original text, insofar as possible, must be translated integrally and in the most exact manner, without omissions or additions in terms of their content, and without paraphrases or glosses. Any adaptation to the characteristics or the nature of the various vernacular languages is to be sober and discreet.20

 

[steve99]

I would highlight the bit you didn’t:-

“While it is permissible to arrange the wording, the syntax and the style in such a way as to prepare a flowing vernacular text suitable to the rhythm of popular prayer, the original text,…”

The example given did not flow. As to oblations, why use an archaic word like this. We don’t all take our dictionaries to Mass. But looking it up it says its an offering. So why not say offering (or gift)? I think everyone can understand that word. Are we trying to be clear or to obscure meaning? Or are we just trying to be elitist?
No I don’t want to hold everyone to the lowest common denominator. But I do want language that most people can readily understand, that isn’t archaic, and that has a rythmn.

And what is faithful translation? Latin is not English, or German, or French. Each language has its own structure, grammar and style. Often there is no equivalent word that matches the meaning. Then again ICEL had to translate not just for Americans but many English speaking cultures, with many different levels of vocabulary and even meanings of the same word.