How much Latin to use in the Liturgy?

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I think that the Mass should be said in English for these reasons:
  1. Those of us younger Catholics are accustomed to hearing the Mass in our own language.
  2. Evangelicals will be less likely to convert to the Church if the Mass was in 100% latin. (they bash us now for it).
However, I have no problem if there is one Mass per week done in Latin for those who prefer the old Mass.

Again, no problem if there is a Mass offered in Latin but I dont think it is a good idea for this to be forced on all Catholics.

Peace
 
Vatican II says Latin Rite Catholics should know basic prayers in Latin- most do not.

I think we should definitley have a vernacular mass everywhere. It is especially necessary for evangelization and catechesis- if it is done reverently with an atmosphere of silence. Non-Catholics and the young learn what the priest is doing, the prayers can be a guide for their own prayers.

However the Latin needs to be more widespread. It is the Language of the Church on whose half the priest intercedes. It will not loose its meaning. BECAUSE the people don’t understand the prayers they can more perfectly enter into what is happening. The prayers remain the prayers of the priest and the people can join their own prayers to the mass and enter into contemplation and adoration of Our Lord in the Eucharist. It is beautiful.

What bothers me is not facing east. Without that we forget that the mass is a sacrafice and we are offering ourselves to God.

Also the mis-translations in the English make me cringe. I caught myself the other day praying… "Lord I am not worthy that thou should come under my roof but only say the word and MY SOUL SHALL BE HEALED!
 
Before I became Catholic, I actually knew some of the Latin mass parts better than the English ones! But, that was because I was in choir and we sang a “mass” by Mozart or Haydn or someone else every year for our (public!) high school’s winter choir concert (the director got away with it a) because it was in Latin and b) because it was classical music).

Tongue-in-cheek: I suppose we should probably do the Kyrie in Latin too. . . :rolleyes:

At my parish, while the various prayers are done in English, we always do the Agnus Dei in Latin, the Amen in, um, “amen” language, the Memorial Acclamation in English, the Sanctus has both English and Latin settings, and the Gloria is generally done in English, but we use a seasonal setting in which the “Gloria” section is done in Latin and the rest in English.

Actually, as a musician, I would like do some work coming up with creative (and artistically excellent) ways to blend modern music with ancient, and this thread suggests to me that I should consider how I might blend Latin and English more.
 
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Prometheum_x:
Before I became Catholic, I actually knew some of the Latin mass parts better than the English ones! But, that was because I was in choir and we sang a “mass” by Mozart or Haydn or someone else every year for our (public!) high school’s winter choir concert (the director got away with it a) because it was in Latin and b) because it was classical music).

Tongue-in-cheek: I suppose we should probably do the Kyrie in Latin too. . . :rolleyes:

At my parish, while the various prayers are done in English, we always do the Agnus Dei in Latin, the Amen in, um, “amen” language, the Memorial Acclamation in English, the Sanctus has both English and Latin settings, and the Gloria is generally done in English, but we use a seasonal setting in which the “Gloria” section is done in Latin and the rest in English.

Actually, as a musician, I would like do some work coming up with creative (and artistically excellent) ways to blend modern music with ancient, and this thread suggests to me that I should consider how I might blend Latin and English more.
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You know, I have to disagree with you there. I don’t think it’s a virtue to blend latin and modern music. Actually, I’m one of the people who think the more latin the better. But, of course, that’s a personal preference.
 
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Michael038:
I think that the Mass should be said in English for these reasons:
  1. Those of us younger Catholics are accustomed to hearing the Mass in our own language.
  2. Evangelicals will be less likely to convert to the Church if the Mass was in 100% latin. (they bash us now for it).
However, I have no problem if there is one Mass per week done in Latin for those who prefer the old Mass.

Again, no problem if there is a Mass offered in Latin but I dont think it is a good idea for this to be forced on all Catholics.

Peace
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No problem with one mass a week? Current law allows any priest at will to offer the Mass in Latin. No priest ever has to use the vernacular…ever…

It sounds like you are suggesting that they change the law so that priests are not allowed to offer more than one mass a week in Latin.

Is that correct?
 
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Michael038:
I think that the Mass should be said in English for these reasons:
  1. Those of us younger Catholics are accustomed to hearing the Mass in our own language.
  2. Evangelicals will be less likely to convert to the Church if the Mass was in 100% latin. (they bash us now for it).
However, I have no problem if there is one Mass per week done in Latin for those who prefer the old Mass.

Again, no problem if there is a Mass offered in Latin but I dont think it is a good idea for this to be forced on all Catholics.

Peace
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No it is probably not a good idea. Look what happened when they forced the vernacular on us back in the 60’s. :eek: Who knows what would happen if the forced Latin back in?
 
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steve99:
But it has to do with being understandable… What’s wrong with offering" or “gift”? And I don’t see what is especially dignified about Latin.
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First of all, I would just like to say, Oat Soda, that the text in Latin reads “haec donna, haec munera, haec sancta sacrificia illibata” and while “sacrificia” may be transalated as “oblation” given the context, it is not fully correct as (a) Latin has a different word for oblation as is evident elsewhere in the old Roman Canon “Hanc igitur oblationem” “Quam oblationem”, etc. (b) Oblation and sacrifice, though similar have slightly different connotations. But don’t take this from me, I’m nowhere close an expert in Latin or English…

Anyway, steve99, to answer your question, there is nothing wrong with either gift or offering except that again Latin has different words for these and “oblation” is somewhat like a sacrifice being offered. So replacing a word that means and implies “sacrifice” with ‘offering’ or ‘gift’ is not exactly correct. “Oblation” is also closely connected with an atoning sacrifice which is most fitting for the Mass.
 
Speaking of universality, the other day I was quietly singing the Kyrie at the end of a prayer in class and my Egpytian friend heard it and leaned across with a shocked expression “You speak Coptic?” 😃
 
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Michael038:
I think that the Mass should be said in English for these reasons:
  1. Those of us younger Catholics are accustomed to hearing the Mass in our own language.
  2. Evangelicals will be less likely to convert to the Church if the Mass was in 100% latin. (they bash us now for it).
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Dear Michael,
  1. As a young Catholic (I’m only 23) I appreciate the use of Latin at Mass a great deal. I also know a large number of young Catholics who share that appreciation. Some have even joined a youth movement for the spreading of the Tridentine Mass (the “before our time” Mass, which my parents, and their parents, and their parents… all attended) called Juventutem.
  2. I have never heard one of the Evangelicals that I know say anything negative about the use of Latin in Catholic worship. In fact, those with whom I have discussed Latin’s use in the Liturgy (hey its great for the occasional illiteration too ;)) think that its beautiful. One friend even asked to be taught some prayers in Latin. I taught her the Pater Noster… then the Ave Maria. 😃
God bless,

Agricola
 
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Agricola:
Dear Michael,
  1. As a young Catholic (I’m only 23) I appreciate the use of Latin at Mass a great deal. I also know a large number of young Catholics who share that appreciation. Some have even joined a youth movement for the spreading of the Tridentine Mass (the “before our time” Mass, which my parents, and their parents, and their parents… all attended) called Juventutem.
  2. I have never heard one of the Evangelicals that I know say anything negative about the use of Latin in Catholic worship. In fact, those with whom I have discussed Latin’s use in the Liturgy (hey its great for the occasional illiteration too ;)) think that its beautiful. One friend even asked to be taught some prayers in Latin. I taught her the Pater Noster… then the Ave Maria. 😃
God bless,

Agricola
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I’m in Europe. Do you know how hard it is to only speak English and Latin when your in Europe???

When they used Latin the Mass was universal and everyone understood it. It wasn’t a barrier for people entering the Church either. Now I assist at Masses in which I hardly understand a word. Not cool.
 
I’ve skimmed these posts and I wonder about the responses.

I would think that the best reason for using Latin is that the Vulgate Bible was the gold standard for scripture, for centuries.

And, peripherally, around the world, everyone used a common dead language for the Mass, so it was an immutable language.

Those have to be the best reasons, no?

It seems that otherwise people just want Latin for nostalgia reasons.

English is spoken far and wide around the world. The poor quality of the texts and rubrics shows how it doesn’t match Latin for universal appeal. English should be the universal language, but not for xenophobic reasons.

Perhaps the United Nations precedent should apply, and there should be five main language options for the Mass. I don’t know if the experiment in the vernacular started with Vatican II has resulted in five such high quality translations.
 
Dear RickL,
And, peripherally, around the world, everyone used a common dead language for the Mass, so it was an immutable language.
Those have to be the best reasons, no?
It seems that otherwise people just want Latin for nostalgia reasons.
English is spoken far and wide around the world.
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I sometimes wonder whether to pin it on Christopher Columbus who found the new world in 1492. With zillions of immigrants flocking to the U.S. from all over the world, all speaking in their native tongue, it became necessary to find a common tongue that all could understand — English, not latin.

Yet we kept the latin in our church, when everyone was adopting english as the standard, so it seems to me the Church was years behind in renewal. It was long in coming, IMO. Not only do we in America have the mass in our vernacular, but other countries are also conscious that their people need to understand in their native tongue. When I visit in Florida, they celebrate a special evening mass for the Spanish community. I support that, for these people would understand neither latin nor english.

It is so widespread that whenever we dial a company, their phone answers: press 1 for english, 2 for spanish. I am also finding it on my ATM machines now whenever I bank. Some day, we Americans may be a minority, and the official language in America may change to spanish. :eek:

Just a thought,
Carole
 
Gee, I still don’t know what “begotten, not made” or “who proceeds from the Father and the Son” means, even though I’ve heard it in English thousands of times. But that’s just me.

I’ve never considered the Balkanization of America or, indeed, the Church to be a good thing. But perhaps I’m missing the positives of turning our liturgical worship into a Tower of Babel. Perhaps the “Spirit” is instigating those thousands of acrimonious disputes around the globe about translations into the vulgar tongue.

Catholic used to mean universal, but nowadays maybe something’s been lost in the translation. :nope:
 
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Kielbasi:
The people are now accustomed to hearing mass in their own languages.

I don’t think it would be practical to change back to all latin, or even a lot of latin at this point in time. Maybe when the church gets significantly inspirational leadership, it might be possible to latinize, and it might be a good idea, but its premature to go for it at this point in time.
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Of course, you could also argue that the people were once all accustomed to hearing Mass in Latin …

And in a world that is increasingly multi-lingual, I’m not convinced that English-onlyism has a place in the Latin Rite.
 
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SFH:
Of course, you could also argue that the people were once all accustomed to hearing Mass in Latin …
.
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That is of course true, but the change from Latin to the vernacular was fairly traumatic to a large number of the faithful, for various reasons.

A switch back would be just as equally traumatic, it would take really inspirational leadership to pull it off successfully.

People just don’t like change, especially in the area of religion.
 
I started attending a Traditional Latin Mass a couple of years ago, almost by accident. We missed the usual early NO Mass we habitually attended, for various reasons, and went to a later Mass in another parish where the largely unknown hymns/songs of praise had a distinctly country flavour.

There was even drums. I found this distracting, especially during and after communion, so the next time we could not make the early mass we went to the TLM our priest celebrates every Sunday. It was not our first choice, but we found it preferable to the alternative.

After the 3rd or 4th time something happened… I felt a deeper sense of worship, of awe, of being present at Calvary. I rediscovered the ‘sacred silence’ following Communion. With Latin/English Mass books we could follow easily (and without reciting prayers by rote).

It didn’t take long before I was following the common prayers in Latin and understanding what the words meant. I would take a sentence at a time and repeat it over until I understood it. I don’t have to learn Latin as a language, just Church Latin.

We sing the Kyrie Eleison, the Gloria, the Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei and the priest sings the Pater Nosta. We use the Gregorian Missa de Angelis, and Credo III. I have them on a tape which I play in my car. This has helped me learn the chant easily.

The Epistle, the Gospel and the Homily are in English.

Since I began attending we have been joined by several young single people and young married couples in their 20s.

The last couple of Sundays my husband and I attended Mass in two other parishes and I am homesick for the TLM. That’s a yearning, not nostalgia.

Personally, I don’t see why we can’t have a special language, especially for God, when it comes to worship, apart from the vernacular of our everyday prayers.
 
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Joysong:
Dear RickL,

I sometimes wonder whether to pin it on Christopher Columbus who found the new world in 1492. With zillions of immigrants flocking to the U.S. from all over the world, all speaking in their native tongue, it became necessary to find a common tongue that all could understand — English, not latin.

Yet we kept the latin in our church, when everyone was adopting english as the standard, so it seems to me the Church was years behind in renewal. It was long in coming, IMO. Not only do we in America have the mass in our vernacular, but other countries are also conscious that their people need to understand in their native tongue. When I visit in Florida, they celebrate a special evening mass for the Spanish community. I support that, for these people would understand neither latin nor english.

It is so widespread that whenever we dial a company, their phone answers: press 1 for english, 2 for spanish. I am also finding it on my ATM machines now whenever I bank. Some day, we Americans may be a minority, and the official language in America may change to spanish. :eek:

Just a thought,
Carole
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But, Carole, I’m not in the United States: I’m in Austria. Furthermore people would understand the Latin Mass if it was still normanitive. In addition in many places the official universal language is French. You’d be shocked how many people here only speak their native language and French.

I’ll grant you English is the most spoken language in the world and the United States made so many technoligical advances that, of course, it ipso facto became the “universal” language–but for how long? I don’t see everyone speaking English in half a century from the trends I’m seeing around me. But, you know what, in 50 years when Germans are no longer taught English in school, I’ll still be able to understand the Latin Mass. That’s the beauty of universality. Latin is a discipline, it isn’t necessary; but it’s a lovely discipline.
 
Eileen T:
I started attending a Traditional Latin Mass a couple of years ago, almost by accident. We missed the usual early NO Mass we habitually attended, for various reasons, and went to a later Mass in another parish where the largely unknown hymns/songs of praise had a distinctly country flavour.

There was even drums. I found this distracting, especially during and after communion, so the next time we could not make the early mass we went to the TLM our priest celebrates every Sunday. It was not our first choice, but we found it preferable to the alternative.

After the 3rd or 4th time something happened… I felt a deeper sense of worship, of awe, of being present at Calvary. I rediscovered the ‘sacred silence’ following Communion. With Latin/English Mass books we could follow easily (and without reciting prayers by rote).

It didn’t take long before I was following the common prayers in Latin and understanding what the words meant. I would take a sentence at a time and repeat it over until I understood it. I don’t have to learn Latin as a language, just Church Latin.

We sing the Kyrie Eleison, the Gloria, the Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei and the priest sings the Pater Nosta. We use the Gregorian Missa de Angelis, and Credo III. I have them on a tape which I play in my car. This has helped me learn the chant easily.

The Epistle, the Gospel and the Homily are in English.

Since I began attending we have been joined by several young single people and young married couples in their 20s.

The last couple of Sundays my husband and I attended Mass in two other parishes and I am homesick for the TLM. That’s a yearning, not nostalgia.

Personally, I don’t see why we can’t have a special language, especially for God, when it comes to worship, apart from the vernacular of our everyday prayers.
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Beautiful story and excellent point!

Remember that Hebrew was only a liturgical language at the time of Christ. All the Jews either spoke Aramaic or Greek or both (depending on location). This isn’t a very strong arguement, but, Our Lord used a liturgical language in his liturgical prayers. Latin isn’t sued for anything else, so why not hold that the mysteries we celebrate are so sacred that it is better to not profain them with the vulgar (vulgative?) language. Granted there is precident for the vernacular, and the Church did nothing wrong in permitting the vernacular, and I don’t propose that the Church turn around and say “tomorrow it’s banned,” but there were reasons why they had the discpline, and I think they’re good! The Catholic Encyclopedia (the old one) when discussing this says that it is only a discipline and it is subject to change and there are reasons to change it: but the consequences would probably be more than the benefits. I think history has proven that prophesy correct.
 
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