How much Latin to use in the Liturgy?

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So why not say offering (or gift)? I think everyone can understand that word. Are we trying to be clear or to obscure meaning? Or are we just trying to be elitist?
No I don’t want to hold everyone to the lowest common denominator. But I do want language that most people can readily understand, that isn’t archaic, and that has a rythmn.
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then why say “amen” and not “the truth” or “allelulia” or “hosana”? are these common words we use day to day? if you consider oblation as archaic, then why not these old hebrew words? why say kyrie and not only lord?

it’s not about what you want. the world doesn’t revolve around what steve99 from liverpool wants or oat soda in his translation. icel didn’t authentically translate the mass. if they did, JP2 wouldn’t have issued litaurgiam authenticam. that’s why they’re revising right now!
Nevertheless, it has been noted that translations of liturgical texts in various localities stand in need of improvement through correction or through a new draft.11

The omissions or errors which affect certain existing vernacular translations especially in the case of certain languages have impeded the progress of the inculturation that actually should have taken place. Consequently, the Church has been prevented from laying the foundation for a fuller, healthier and more authentic renewal.
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the icel confiteor ommited the three mea culpas from the latin text.
I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do; and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God**.**
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oat soda:
then why say “amen” and not “the truth” or “allelulia” or “hosana”? are these common words we use day to day? if you consider oblation as archaic, then why not these old hebrew words? why say kyrie and not only lord?

it’s not about what you want. the world doesn’t revolve around what steve99 from liverpool wants or oat soda in his translation. icel didn’t authentically translate the mass. if they did, JP2 wouldn’t have issued litaurgiam authenticam. that’s why they’re revising right now! the icel confiteor ommited the three mea culpas from the latin text.
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This thread started about use of Latin in the Mass, not about how accurate the current translation is. I couldn’t comment on that as I don’t speak Latin. I am however entitled to comment on the quality of the English. I’ve seen a draft an early attempt at a new translation (it was leaked over here) and some of it was a retrograde step in terms of “user friendly” English.

As regards “amen” and “alleluia” etc. these words have become part of the English language just as many other foreign words have. As you say they are common words we use day to day - oblation is not.
 
This thread started about use of Latin in the Mass, not about how accurate the current translation is.
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but this is why some element of latin is advantageous. anytime you translate a language you can loose some of the meaning, especially if done poorly like the icel has done.
As regards “amen” and “alleluia” etc. these words have become part of the English language just as many other foreign words have.
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the reason they are part of our language is because they have been used in the liturgy. oblation would be more recognizable if it was still in the liturgy as would beseech or deign. i believe that we owe our best in the liturgy, weather the clothing we wear, or the words we use.

latin has a certain dignity about it but when it is advantageous to use english, we shouldn’t dumb it down. i think the center and summit of our christian life deserves our very best, including our rich english language. it should take us out of our every day banal world and foster a sense of sacredness. this has nothing to do about being elitist.
 
oat soda:
but this is why some element of latin is advantageous. anytime you translate a language you can loose some of the meaning, especially if done poorly like the icel has done.
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But it HAS to be translated unless you are a Latin expert. If you tell me that a certain phrase means xyz you have just translated it. If you don’t tell me that then it is meaningless gibberish.
oat soda:
latin has a certain dignity about it but when it is advantageous to use english, we shouldn’t dumb it down. i think the center and summit of our christian life deserves our very best, including our rich english language. it should take us out of our every day banal world and foster a sense of sacredness. this has nothing to do about being elitist.
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But it has to do with being understandable… What’s wrong with offering" or “gift”? And I don’t see what is especially dignified about Latin.
 
And I don’t see what is especially dignified about Latin.
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  1. it was one of the languages written above the cross
  2. it has been the language of academia and the sciences -look at old diplomas, or the dollar bill for that matter
  3. it has been the offical language of the roman church since the third century or so
  4. languages in western and eastern europe are derived from it
  5. latin doesn’t change like in modern laguages, it is nearly fixed.
  6. most importantly,
36. § 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
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and
The use of the vernacular has certainly opened up the treasures of the liturgy to all who take part, but this does not mean that the Latin language, and especially the chants which are so superbly adapted to the genius of the Roman Rite, should be wholly abandoned.
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does this mean vernacular is bad? -no way. only that some element of latin in the liturgy may be benefical to the laity as it expresses the universality of the church and esp. the roman rite.
 
And I don’t see what is especially dignified about Latin.
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  1. it was one of the languages written above the cross
  2. it has been the language of academia and the sciences -look at old diplomas, or the dollar bill for that matter
  3. it has been the official language of the roman church since the third century or so
  4. languages in western and eastern europe are derived from it
  5. latin doesn’t change like in modern languages, it is nearly fixed.
  6. most importantly,
36.
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§ 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites. and
The use of the vernacular has certainly opened up the treasures of the liturgy to all who take part, but **this does not mean that the **
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Latin language, and especially the chants which are so superbly adapted to the genius of the Roman Rite, should be wholly abandoned. does this mean vernacular is bad? -no way. only that some element of latin in the liturgy may be beneficial to the laity as it expresses the universality of the church and esp. the roman rite.
 
And I don’t see what is especially dignified about Latin.
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  1. it was one of the languages written above the cross
  2. it has been the language of academia and the sciences -look at old diplomas, or the dollar bill for that matter
  3. it has been the official language of the roman church since the third century or so
  4. languages in western and eastern europe are derived from it
  5. latin doesn’t change like in modern languages, it is nearly fixed.
  6. most importantly,
36.
Click to expand...
§ 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites. and
The use of the vernacular has certainly opened up the treasures of the liturgy to all who take part, but **this does not mean that the **
Click to expand...
Latin language, and especially the chants which are so superbly adapted to the genius of the Roman Rite, should be wholly abandoned. does this mean vernacular is bad? -no way. only that some element of latin in the liturgy may be beneficial to the laity as it expresses the universality of the church esp. the roman rite.
 
Latin is not just an ordinary language. It has been the language of the Roman Catholic Church for ages. Latin prayers will unite all the catholics in worshipping and praising GOD.
 
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EJ79:
Pope Paul VI echoed this with his motu propio, going as far as to present a “Jubilate Deo” gregorian Mass as a last-ditch plea to preserve a bare-minimum of what every Roman Catholic should be able to sing and know of liturgical Latin.
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The problem with the Jubilate Deo is that, other than the Gloria and Credo, it’s for Requiem Masses! I don’t know how many heads I saw shake and eyes roll when they used it on- of all days- Easter Sunday. I was born long after Vatican II- and converted even longer, but I know enough to know the Jubilate Deo sounds depressing. For people who were around before Vatican II, they’ll probably know exactly what it’s *supposed *to be for, and will rightfully consider it out of place at any other time.
 
I think that everything except the readings should be in Latin. The Novus Ordo Mass is a very abbreviated from of the Mass and the amount of Latin required is not much at all. There is something very dignified and reverent about hearing this language spoken. I believe that it provides a link to our past particulary to the Passion of Christ. I have heard all the arguments about which language Jesus spoke in his ministry and life, Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin etc but one thing I believe is certain. The trrial and dialogue with Pontious Pilate was in Latin. The Romans were not noted for being politically correct and I cannot believe a Roman Governor would conduct any government business whatsoever in any language other than Latin.

Besides that, the prayers and ceremonies of Judaism are conducted in Hebrew, which all learn to a extent, and the prayers and ceremonies of Islam are in Arabic, which all learn to an extent. For us to learn enough Latin to participate in the prayers and ceremonies of the Church doesn’t seem that difficult a thing to do.
 
I believe the propers of the Mass (including the readings) should be in the vernacular and the ordinary in Latin. Since part of the role of the propers is instruction and the fact that they change makes it expedient for them to be in the vernacular. Now, the unchangeable Ordinary is another story, and I cannot think of any reason to not have it in Latin.

Vatican II’s *Sacrosanctum Concilium * says,

"*In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them*" (SC, 54).

I think this paragraph makes it clear that the readings, prayer of the faithful, and proper prayers could be allowed in the vernacular, but that the Ordinary should remain in Latin.

Of course, the faithful should be taught the Latin and what it means as SC says. 🙂

In Christ,

Adam
 
We have a missionary helping out in our parish for the summer and yesterday at daily mass, which is the Novus Ordo mass…he did the entire liturgical prayer in Latin. It was a new experience and it didn’t distract from the celebration. Everything else was done in English though. So after mass, when I was helping clean the church, I opened the sacramentary( the book used at the altar with the priest) and found that the entire Novus Ordo mass can be said in Latin at the discretion of the celebrant but it usually offered in the vernacular of the parish. Very interesting experience!
 
I liked how Fr Mitchell treats latin at my parish.

we do the kyrie in greek, the sanctus, sometimes the myterium fide, and the agnus dei in latin and sing more latin hymns but only during advent and lent. this IMHO makes the used of such a pretty language extra special. i eagerly await those seasons just to hear the mass parts in latin
 
The use of Latin in the Mass has a long tradition in the Church. If anything, the Church is a thing of tradition. I am all for the homily and reading being in a common language. The layity does need to understand the message being presented to them.

However, our long and deeply moving traditions should not suffer for it. When I sing the Kyrie it moves me to tears and has a deep impact on me.

Bruce
 
there is absolutely no reason why the ordinary parts of the mass cannot be said in latin – this leaves the Readings, homily and Prayers of the Faithful to said in the language of the people… this was the intention of the Council Fathers, but we have only been swept by the “spirit of VII”
 
I could go with the Kyrie in Greek, the Sanctus, Agnus Dei , and some of the shorter responsorial prayers in Latin. But on the other hand we first used Latin because it was the language of the Roman world. Today the universal business language through much of the world is English. Perhaps it is time for the universal Church to forget about Spanish, Japanese, and German etc. and switch to English. We could have prayer books in English with a translation to the national language alongside. It wouldn’t be too long before many people would be able to follow in English. 😉
 
The Kyrie in Greek and the rest including the readings in Latin. Only the homily should be in the vernacular. :clapping:

Kathie :bowdown:
 
I prefer English for the entire Mass as I can then focus on what is being said without the distraction of having to translate. I don’t mind some latin for the Sanctus or Agnus Dei, which actually end up as hymns then, but I grew up with sleepy time latin masses where the kids had no clue and the adults all did their rosaries or other private devotions and I never really could get myself involved in it.
 
I grew up with the English only Mass and kids like me were bored stiff because we had no clue what was going on and the adults responded in an uninspired, rote manner. But, hey, at least they were “participating!”

Just because a Mass is in English is no guarantee that it is “understood” better than Latin. If proper catechesis is lacking, as it has been in the US Church throughout most of the past 30 years, it doesn’t matter what language is used.

I prefer Latin for the entire Mass as I can then concentrate on the meaning of the words without being distracted by a puerile English “translation.”

If I was never able to attend another English language Mass for the rest of my life, I would shed no tears.
 
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