How Much Time Should She Serve?

[krissy343]

Anything can have undesirable consequences – and you are not doing your position any favors by implying that a pregnancy is an undesirable consequence of sex.

Obviously, if the woman is having an abortion the “consequence” defined as “Something that logically or naturally follows from an action or condition” it is undesirable to her. I was not stating that it was my opinion that pregnacy is a undesirable consequence of sex. I believe pregnancy is a beautiful thing that should happen between two people who are married to one another. But unfortunately, it doesn’t always work like that. A lot of these women feel that there is no other way and that is sooooooo selfish.

 

[Katie1723]

I think if abortion were a crime punishable with jail time, there might be a few less people on the forums here.

Kathy

 

[rpp]

You’re dodging the question: why should the woman be held more responsible for a conception? It was an act that – hopefully, but not always – required about equal participation. Why does the sperm donor get to run off scot-free while the woman has to go through pregnancy and childbirth?

Sorry, not an intentional dodge. I just had this idea that it is kind of hard (though not impossible! ) for a woman to pretend to not be pregnant. It struck me as funny so just whipped it out.

Personally, I do not think a woman is more - or less - responsible for the conception of a child (assuming sex was consensual).

But I will reiterate that responsibility does not matter. Once conception happens, we have a third person. An Innocent person. Nothing about how the conception occurred, no matter how consensual, forced or unnatural, can justify killing this innocent person.

However, the father cannot (legally) force or prevent a woman from choosing to kill this innocent life. Personally, I see some serious inequity there.

 

[Katie1723]

…However, the father cannot (legally) force or prevent a woman from choosing to kill this innocent life. Personally, I see some serious inequity there.

Wouldn’t it be interesting if a father could prevent that from happening? How many do you suppose would step up to the plate?
Kathy

 

[krissy343]

Wouldn’t it be interesting if a father could prevent that from happening? How many do you suppose would step up to the plate?
Kathy

Sadly, I fear, in today’s society, not many

 

[JimG]

It seems odd to see such penalties (up to and including the death penalty?) proposed for women having abortions; especially when one reflects upon the fact that a women who has had an abortion can go into a confessional, repent of the sin, and be forgiven. (And also considering that such penalties were never a part of abortion legislation before 1973.)
rachelsvineyard.org/

 

[mainusch]

Putting doctors in prison will only make abortions less safe.

The procedure already has greater than 50% mortality rate for the persons involved. In virtually every case, the “doctor” is dealing with at least two people, and one or more will be dead by the end of it.

The only medical procedure that is less “safe” would have to be lethal injection.

 

[Mirdath]

But I will reiterate that responsibility does not matter. Once conception happens, we have a third person. An Innocent person. Nothing about how the conception occurred, no matter how consensual, forced or unnatural, can justify killing this innocent person.

Okay. So what do you propose to do about the man who leaves the woman he’s impregnated in the lurch? What do you do with a woman who’s been raped and gotten with child? Let’s not even get into the matter of abortion just yet: could you, in good conscience, tell a victim of rape to her face to carry a reminder of her violation around every single instant for nine solid months?

mainusch:

The procedure already has greater than 50% mortality rate for the persons involved. In virtually every case, the “doctor” is dealing with at least two people, and one or more will be dead by the end of it.

So you’d prefer the mortality rate increase?

I don’t like abortion; I wish it were truly unnecessary. In a perfect world, all pregnancies would be desired, and there would be no such thing as complications in childbirth. Sadly, that isn’t the case, and I doubt it ever will entirely be so, no matter how good we get at medicine and contraception.

But still, why not work to reduce the number of abortions required, instead of forcing the whole shebang underground and into the back alley? Do you think that’s going to stop all unwanted pregnancies the minute Roe is overturned and anti-abortion legislation gets pushed through, like some kind of switch in the American female brain? Just how much good are you really doing?

 

[krissy343]

Okay. So what do you propose to do about the man who leaves the woman he’s impregnated in the lurch? What do you do with a woman who’s been raped and gotten with child? Let’s not even get into the matter of abortion just yet: could you, in good conscience, tell a victim of rape to her face to carry a reminder of her violation around every single instant for nine solid months?

The man should be held accountable but that would be in a perfect world, which ours surely isn’t. As for the woman who is impregnated, she is undoubtebly in a tough and heartbreaking situation but, that is no reason to take it out on the unborn child by refusing to let it live. There is always adoption. I might be biased because I was adopted and it’s a wonderful thing. Think about Christ’s suffering and death. If all this woman has to do is give birth to a child and possibly put it up for adoption, she is getting off easy! 9 mos really isn’t that long if you think about it and I bet she would be a stronger person from it!
As for the rape victim, that’s a tough one… But, Is it that unborn child’s fault that he/she is a product of rape? That child, if given a chance at life could become a great world leader, a priest, a nun, president! You just never know.
I guess I really don’t know since I have never been in that situation. If it were me, I might think differently. I would hope not though.

 

[Mirdath]

As for the woman who is impregnated, she is undoubtebly in a tough and heartbreaking situation but, that is no reason to take it out on the unborn child by refusing to let it live. There is always adoption. I might be biased because I was adopted and it’s a wonderful thing.

Adoption is great, you’ll have no argument from me there. You’re still asking a woman to go through morning sickness, hormonal swings, bizarre cravings, and eventually the pain and risk of danger or death of childbirth – for a result she never wanted. She’s not taking it out on the child; she’s looking out for #1.

It’s an ugly situation however you look at it, and the only true solution is something I’m sure the Church would find incredibly repulsive: move the entire process of gestation in vitro. Operate on every single person, get sperm/eggs to fertilize artificially, and sterilize everybody. I don’t see the Vatican going for that!

Think about Christ’s suffering and death. If all this woman has to do is give birth to a child and possibly put it up for adoption, she is getting off easy! 9 mos really isn’t that long if you think about it and I bet she would be a stronger person from it!

‘Think about Jesus!’ generally isn’t the most convincing argument to an agnostic

As to the rest, maybe. Very Nietzschean of you: that which does not kill me (and childbirth can, oh it can – the maternal mortality rate in the US is sickeningly high for a supposed first-world nation pdf link]) makes me stronger?

Human suffering is never a good thing! Christians seem to place an inordinate value on it, as if it makes one closer to God and to the suffering of the Christ – but wasn’t the point of the crucifixion to pay for all the sins for which we suffer today? Why introduce more pain into the world, or work against its reduction? It’s like saying ‘that’s nice, Jesus, but it wasn’t quite enough’!

As for the rape victim, that’s a tough one… But, Is it that unborn child’s fault that he/she is a product of rape? That child, if given a chance at life could become a great world leader, a priest, a nun, president! You just never know.
I guess I really don’t know since I have never been in that situation. If it were me, I might think differently. I would hope not though.

It’s a very tough question. But it’s one to which, if you’re going to campaign to make abortion illegal, you absolutely must have an answer. It will come up, and if you can’t respond, everyone will remember that you campaigned for the babies and forgot about the mothers. And they’ll be right.

 

[krissy343]

Adoption is great, you’ll have no argument from me there. You’re still asking a woman to go through morning sickness, hormonal swings, bizarre cravings, and eventually the pain and risk of danger or death of childbirth – for a result she never wanted. She’s not taking it out on the child; she’s looking out for #1.

Lol not wanting to suffer from morning sickness, hormonal swings, cravings and the pain of childbirth are not a reason to abort a child! At least not in my opinion which I’m sure is shared by many. As for the risk of death and due to childbirth, that woman could get her abortion, walk out of the clinic and get hit by a car and die! Whenever it’s your time to go it’s your time to go. Now, mind you, I’m speaking of a woman who consentually (sp) had sex knowing that there was a chance that she could get pregnant (that is what sex is ultimately meant for) but chose to do it anyway. IMO if you are mature enough to have sex you should be mature enough to take on the responsibilities of what could come out of that sex act. It’s like STD’s. We all know they are out there but if we have sex with someone, say a one night stand and end up contracting a disease, we aren’t going to say “wow! how did that happen?”

It’s an ugly situation however you look at it, and the only true solution is something I’m sure the Church would find incredibly repulsive: move the entire process of gestation in vitro. Operate on every single person, get sperm/eggs to fertilize artificially, and sterilize everybody. I don’t see the Vatican going for that!

It is a very ugly situation, I agree with you on that. Changing everything to in vitro fertilization is absurd! The one thing that would stop the problem (except for in cases of rape) would be for people to get a clue that sex can cause pregnancy and if they aren’t ready for that don’t have sex! It will never happen but that sure would solve the problem, wouldn’t it?

‘Think about Jesus!’ generally isn’t the most convincing argument to an agnostic

As to the rest, maybe. Very Nietzschean of you: that which does not kill me (and childbirth can, oh it can – the maternal mortality rate in the US is sickeningly high for a supposed first-world nation pdf link]) makes me stronger?

Human suffering is never a good thing! Christians seem to place an inordinate value on it, as if it makes one closer to God and to the suffering of the Christ – but wasn’t the point of the crucifixion to pay for all the sins for which we suffer today? Why introduce more pain into the world, or work against its reduction? It’s like saying ‘that’s nice, Jesus, but it wasn’t quite enough’!

I apologize for not realizing that you were Agnostic but my stance still remains the same regardless. As for your comment about the Crucifixion paying for all the sins we commit today. Since He did that, it’s OK to go around aborting HIS children? I think not. But I can respect your opinion. I dont’ think we should add more pain and suffering into the world either but I don’t think we should add more murder of unborn babies either. Because, whether you see it this way or not, it IS murder plain and simple.
Sorry if I didn’t respond to everything but it’s getting quite late. Have a good night and thanks for sharing your opinions! It’s nice to know how others feel about subjects like these.

 

[blessedtoo]

You’re dodging the question: why should the woman be held more responsible for a conception?

You are twisting the issue.
They are both responsible for the conception.
SHE is responsible for the murder.

 

[blessedtoo]

Putting doctors in prison will only make abortions less safe. It’s not going to stop anyone drinking poison to induce a miscarriage, it’s not going to stop punches to the stomach or pushes at the top of staircases, it’s not going to stop amateurs with coathangers.

Have you actually done any honest research on the number and types of abortions that occurred pre-Roe v. Wade? My heaven’s, Mirdath, you sound like you are still sitting at the foot of Betty Friedan’s chair. Move away, my friend. You have been hoodwinked!

 

[blessedtoo]

It seems odd to see such penalties (up to and including the death penalty?) proposed for women having abortions; especially when one reflects upon the fact that a women who has had an abortion can go into a confessional, repent of the sin, and be forgiven. (And also considering that such penalties were never a part of abortion legislation before 1973.)
rachelsvineyard.org/

I could murder someone and go to confession and receive absolution. I would still have to pay my debt to society for my crime.

 

[Aramis]

Life at hard labor for the purchaser and the provider of abortion, and for any other 1st degree murderer.

 

[DJgang]

Putting doctors in prison will only make abortions less safe. It’s not going to stop anyone drinking poison to induce a miscarriage, it’s not going to stop punches to the stomach or pushes at the top of staircases, it’s not going to stop amateurs with coathangers.

Doctors do not force anyone to get an abortion. Some women may feel pressured into it by family, friends, or society in general, but in the end the doctor didn’t go out and drag them into the clinic.

Way to go with the death sentence note, by the way. The cure for killing is more killing? How… pro-life.

Hum…topic of discussion is if abortions were illegal… and no abortion is safe. Just because they are legal, doesn’t mean that they are safe…

Coathanger? Hum…been hanging out with Pro-Choicers, huh?

Nope, death sentence is not too Pro-Life, but I think that it will take the threat of that to stop the Abortionists.

Nothing I can do about a woman that take a cocktail of poison, then she is the abortionist in this case, and she should serve the time.

And yes, there are women who have been forced to have abortions. It may not come in the form of a gun to the head, strapped arms, etc like in China, but when everyone around her is saying “abortion is YOUR only option” … that is mental force.

 

[blessedtoo]

Okay. So what do you propose to do about the man who leaves the woman he’s impregnated in the lurch?

This thread is about the woman who aborts her child, not the father. But to answer your question, there are laws in place to enforce child support should a man attempt to flee his responsibility. Beyond that, it will take a moral revolution to remind men of the roles they were meant to fulfill.

What do you do with a woman who’s been raped and gotten with child? Let’s not even get into the matter of abortion just

Ok. Leave out the abortion question. What do you do with a woman who has been raped? Do you not provide her counsel, support, therapy? Why should this change simply because she is pregnant? Why should her recovery from this trauma include killing the baby?

yet: could you, in good conscience, tell a victim of rape to her face to carry a reminder of her violation around every single instant for nine solid months?

Absolutely. Nine solid months, huh? Have you carried a child? I have. Let me tell you that in the big picture of life, 9 months is a drop in the bucket. Only in this culture of complete self-obsession could 9 months be such an inconceivable sacrifice.

I don’t like abortion; I wish it were truly unnecessary.

It’s never necessary.

In a perfect world, all pregnancies would be desired, and there would be no such thing as complications in childbirth.

No. In a perfect world, or at least a large majority of the world pre legal abortion, all pregnancies would be ACCEPTED.

how good we get at medicine and contraception.

Right. The myth of more contraception. Back in the old days, when all we had were condoms, out of wedlock pregnancies were nearly non-existent. Now, we have countless ways to prevent conception and the out-of-wedlock birthrate is over 35%.

But still, why not work to reduce the number of abortions required, instead of forcing the whole shebang underground and into the back alley?

And how do you propose to accomplish this? Do you realize that pro-lifer’s have been campaigning for over 30 years and still abortion prevails. Do you acknowledge that the revolutionary sex-ed in schools being taught to 2nd graders has not helped the situation one bit - in fact, it’s worse today. Do you ackowledge that the one absolute safeguard against abortion is abstinence until marriage and yet abstinence can’t be taught to the kids? And marriage is considered passe by this generation?
Reduce the number of abortions by making it illegal. You will see a drop of 3/4 of a million, at least, each year. I would say that’s a significant reduction, wouldn’t you?

 

[blessedtoo]

Human suffering is never a good thing!

Spoken like a true agnostic.
Okay, what about reward? What about the sacrifice a woman makes when she carries a child for a mere 9 months of her 70 or 80 years of life, and gives the child to a desperate couple who have been trying to conceive for years and years, who have been waiting on a list for years to adopt, and have finally been given this tremendous gift by this generous woman. How truly awful, huh?

It’s a very tough question. But it’s one to which, if you’re going to campaign to make abortion illegal, you absolutely must have an answer. It will come up, and if you can’t respond, everyone will remember that you campaigned for the babies and forgot about the mothers. And they’ll be right.

No, Mirdath, we do have the answers and you know it. You’ve been around here long enough to realize there is no scenario you can dream up that those who are pro-life can’t answer. You just don’t like the answers. You are knee deep in the utterly scandalous and fallacious propoganda of the feminist dictatorship and you don’t even realize it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I don’t like abortion; I wish it were truly unnecessary. In a perfect world, all pregnancies would be desired, and there would be no such thing as complications in childbirth. Sadly, that isn’t the case, and I doubt it ever will entirely be so, no matter how good we get at medicine and contraception.

Abortion – the deliberate and desired killing of a child before birth – is unnecessary.

 

[Philothea53]

Okay. So what do you propose to do about the man who leaves the woman he’s impregnated in the lurch? What do you do with a woman who’s been raped and gotten with child? Let’s not even get into the matter of abortion just yet: could you, in good conscience, tell a victim of rape to her face to carry a reminder of her violation around every single instant for nine solid months?

So you’d prefer the mortality rate increase?

I don’t like abortion; I wish it were truly unnecessary. In a perfect world, all pregnancies would be desired, and there would be no such thing as complications in childbirth. Sadly, that isn’t the case, and I doubt it ever will entirely be so, no matter how good we get at medicine and contraception.

But still, why not work to reduce the number of abortions required, instead of forcing the whole shebang underground and into the back alley? Do you think that’s going to stop all unwanted pregnancies the minute Roe is overturned and anti-abortion legislation gets pushed through, like some kind of switch in the American female brain? Just how much good are you really doing?

So a rape victim carries the memory of her rape in her mind and you want to add the memory that she killed her child?

Nothing you’ve said here negates the fact that abortion is the deliberate murder of a living, human being.