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LilyM
Guest
So have you been baptised yet ham, or what? Since it’s so important to you to do exactly as Jesus did, I assume you’ve made arrangements by now …
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hamba2han
Guest
I believe that this gospel that Paul was warning about was in fact the Gospel of Barnabas as I have explained previously in this thread.
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Montalban
Guest
The Gospel of Barnabas is an Islamic fraud full of errors. It’s one Moslems continue to push though
The Gospel of Barnabas is a work purporting to be a depiction of the life of Jesus by his disciple Barnabas. The two earliest known manuscripts have been dated to the late sixteenth century, and are written respectively in Italian and in Spanish;
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Eireann
Guest
And 600 years later was it ? hey presto, another great revelation through the Angel Gabriel.
I’ll stick with Paul, thanks anyway, is the Gospel of Barnabas in the Bible ?
Gospel of Barnabus says Jesus isn’t the Messiah.
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John 4:25** The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (who is called Christ). Therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith to her: I am he, who am speaking with thee.
The Gospel of Barnabus is blantant in your face downright lies.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
H2H:
Fascinating discussion topic! I hope you will answer some questions for me.
I was wondering, when you say you follow Jesus (pbuh) do you follow him first and Mohammad (pbuh) second, or do you follow Mohammad (pbuh) first and Jesus (pbuh) second?
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Montalban
Guest
He knows the Gospel of Barnabas isn’t. It’s full of tell-tale errors, such as mix ups over geography -where the author clearly hadn’t a good knowledge of the Holy Land.
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LilyM
Guest
Of course it’d be Mohammad first - he’s considered to be the best human being ever.
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Montalban
Guest
They certainly do!
They maintain that ‘the prophet’ was the best example for moral behaviour…
“The Lord of the universe, The Most Merciful and Compassionate sent about 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nook and corner of this earth to guide humanity towards understanding the purpose of its creation and thereby surrender to His Divine Laws and achieve its final destiny of Eternal Peace in His Paradise. The last messenger of God who brought His last revelation the Holy Quraan to humanity is Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, born in Mekkah, approximately 550 years after Jesus, son of Mary, peace and blessings of God be on them both. This is the account of this last Messenger of God, the most remarkable man, that human history has known.”
daar-ul-ehsaan.org/truth/must.htm
“The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;”
missionislam.com/youth/muhammad.htm
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
I assume you are saying this with a wink, LM, for you are a Catholic.
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Socrates4Jesus
Guest
What about you, Mont? Do you think Jesus (pbuh) was a lesser or greater prophet than Mohammad (pbuh)?
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hamba2han
Guest
Au contraire, all Muslims have indeed undergone the greatest “baptism” there is, whether they realise it or not.
Holy Qur’an, 002.135-138
They say: “Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation).” Say thou: “Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah.”
Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam).”
So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.
(Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah: And who can baptise better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.
And so, you were saying something about the need to be “baptised”?.. And who can baptise better than Allah?
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LilyM
Guest
But that’s not at all the same thing as the baptism Jesus underwent - and which he commanded for all who would follow him. If you insist we imitate him in everything he did then you’re a hypocrite for not holding yourself to the same standards.
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jack_hawkins
Guest
Ham would be denounced strongly by Jesus as a hypocrite and a Pharisee if he were on earth, since ham has talked about the externals of Jewish ritual (none of which Jesus commanded us to do) but not about all the spiritual things Jesus actually commanded us to do.
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kellie
Guest
Jesus was Jewish, so followed all the Jewish laws.
He then gave us the NEW covenant.
That is what Abraham was following by being circumsized, a covenant with God. Covenant means agreement. Like signing a contract.
Jesus gave us a NEW covenant, so we no longer need to follow the OLD one, that means circumsicion isn’t necessary.
Jesus was Jewish, but when He founded His Church on Peter, He started Christianity, a whole new religion without all those rules from the Torah.
So you want us to copy Jesus in everything He did do you to prove we are followers??
hamba2han, do you ride a donkey to work?
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hamba2han
Guest
As a Muslim, the Qur’an is my constitution and the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is my leader.
It is the Prophet Muhammad who is following the ways of all the past Prophets like Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all).
The Qur’an states that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was commanded to follow the religion of Abraham (pbuh). Had the religion of Abraham not been known to him, we would not expect God to command him to follow it:
"Then we inspired you (O Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idol-worshiper." [16:123]
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Verisimilitude
Guest
““Allah” was being worshipped at the Kaa’ba in Mecca by Arabs prior to the time of Mohammed. It was formerly the name of the chief god among the numerous idols (360) in the Kaaba in Mecca before Mohammed made them into monotheists. Historians have shown that the moon god called “Hubal” was the god to whom Arabs prayed at the Kaa’ba and they used the name “Allah” when they prayed.”
Muhammed took the name of an idol and said it was god. Abrham never acknowledge your idol so what Islam is doing is not as Abrahma did. Pretty simple.
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Booklover
Guest
This is how Jesus taught us to pray:
Mt. 6 5-15
"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward.** But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.**
In praying, do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
"This is how you are to pray;
Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread;
and forgive us our debts,
as we forgive our debtors;
and do not subject us to the final test,
but deliver us from the evil one.
If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive your. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.
There is nothing there about any ablutions but he has this to say to the Pharisees:
Mt. 23 25-28
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites.** You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.**
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth. Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.
You may claim that you follow Jesus, but if you really did, you would not follow the false prophet Muhammad!
Mt. 8 15-20
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.
Your false prophet’s legacy has been one of ignorance, superstition, fanaticism, fear and terror, self-righteousness, pride, arrogance, death and destruction!
Vickie
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George_Waters
Guest
Everything Muslims “know” about Jesus has come to them from the mouth of Mohammed which, contrary to what our friend hamba2han will say, is inconsistent and in many places flat wrong. Muslims could know Jesus from the Bible, but they have decided the Bible has been corrupted (a sentiment their prophet did not seem to share, but hey, allah abrogates things all the time) and can not be used… unless using twisted logic it seems to agree with Mohammed and then that part was obviously not corrupted! 
The bottom line is Muslims use a phony history as evidence that does not stand up to scrutiny so the OP is based on BS. Why debate with someone who is using fantasy to support facts? hamba2han may never realize he has been duped like a sucker until the Day of Judgment, but I pray God will open his eyes long before that.
The bottom line is Muslims use a phony history as evidence that does not stand up to scrutiny so the OP is based on BS. Why debate with someone who is using fantasy to support facts? hamba2han may never realize he has been duped like a sucker until the Day of Judgment, but I pray God will open his eyes long before that.
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hamba2han
Guest
In the international news magazine, Newsweek, which carried an article entitled ‘O Lord, Who Wrote Thy Prayer?’, a group of theologians from the major Protestant sects, along with noted Roman Catholic Biblical scholars in the United States, after a detailed examination of the earliest manuscripts of the New Testament, concluded that the only words of the “Lord’s prayer” that can be accurately attributed to Jesus Christ is “father”. That is, according to these learned church scholars, all the words that came after the beginning phrase, “Our father”, of the most fundamental Christian prayer, were added centuries later by church scribes who copied the early manuscripts of the Gospels.
I found the following on the web:
Actually, most scholars agree that the so-called Sermon on the Mount didn’t exist until the 2nd Century.
Oh Lord, Who Wrote Thy Prayer?
Missoula, 1988
First it was the Shoud of Turin, now it’s the Lord’s Prayer. According to the Jesus Seminar, a group of prominent Protestant and Roman Catholic Biblical scholars, the prayer was not composed by Jesus as commonly believed, but rather by early Christians. The seminar (jesusseminar.com/Jesus_Se…s_seminar.html), which meets twice a year to vote on the authenticity of New Testament sayings attributed to Christ, concluded that only the word “Father” can be traced directly to him. The rest of the prayer, claim the scholars, is composed of ideas Jesus may have paraphrased. “Thy Kingdom come” and “Forgive our debts,” for example, were lines that that the group voted to regard as likely 2nd century paraphrases.
Questions of Biblical authorship, of course, have long (name removed by moderator)ired impassioned debates among academics. The Jesus Seminar represents an attempt to achieve a scholarly consensus and then submit it to the general public. According to seminar participant Dominic Crossan, a religion professor at DePaul University, “The Gospels do not just tell what Jesus said and did. They also tell what people remember he said, or who added what he might have said or should have said.” As for the Lord’s Prayer, which shows up in Matthew’s description of the Sermon on the Mount and in a section on prayer by Luke, the notion that most of its words were placed in Jesus’ mouth…"
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hamba2han
Guest
Veiling
The women around Jesus veiled themselves according to the practice of the women around the earlier prophets. Their garments were loose and covered their bodies completely, and they wore scarves which covered their hair. In Genesis 24:64-5: “And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she alighted from the camel, 65and said to the servant, ‘Who is the man yonder, walking in the field to meet us?’ The servant said, ‘It is my master.’ So she took her veil and covered herself.” Paul wrote in his first letter to the Corinthians, “5 But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonours her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.” Some may argue that it was the general custom of those times to be completely veiled. However, that is not the case. In both Rome and Greece, whose cultures dominated the region, the popular dress was quite short and revealed the arms, legs and chest. Only religious women in Palestine, following Jewish tradition, covered themselves modestly.
} وَقُلْ لِلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلاَ يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلاَّ مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ… {
“Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and protect their private parts and not to expose their adornment, except only what normally shows, and to draw their head-scarves over their bosoms…”
In Chapter al-Ahzaab (33): 59, the reason for veiling is given. Allaah states that it makes the believing women known in the society and provides protection for them from possible social harm.
And so, the believing Muslim women would follow the women around Jesus (pbuh) by veiling themselves.
The women around Jesus veiled themselves according to the practice of the women around the earlier prophets. Their garments were loose and covered their bodies completely, and they wore scarves which covered their hair. In Genesis 24:64-5: “And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she alighted from the camel, 65and said to the servant, ‘Who is the man yonder, walking in the field to meet us?’ The servant said, ‘It is my master.’ So she took her veil and covered herself.” Paul wrote in his first letter to the Corinthians, “5 But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonours her head—it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil.” Some may argue that it was the general custom of those times to be completely veiled. However, that is not the case. In both Rome and Greece, whose cultures dominated the region, the popular dress was quite short and revealed the arms, legs and chest. Only religious women in Palestine, following Jewish tradition, covered themselves modestly.
Code:
According to Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University), it was customary that Jewish women went out in public with a head-covering which, sometimes, even covered the whole face, leaving only one eye free. He further stated that “during the Tannaitic period, the Jewish woman’s failure to cover her head was considered an affront to her modesty. When her head was uncovered she might be fined four hundred zuzim for this offence.”
The famous early Christian theologian, St. Tertullian (d. 220 CE), in his famous treatise, ‘On The Veiling of Virgins’ wrote, “Young women, you wear your veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church; you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers...” Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church until today, there is a law that requires women to cover their heads in church. Christian denominations, such as the Amish and the Menonites for example, keep their women veiled to the present day.
In the Qur’an, Chapter an-Noor (24):31, the believing women are instructed to cover their charms and wear veils on their heads and chests.“Tell the believing women to lower their gaze and protect their private parts and not to expose their adornment, except only what normally shows, and to draw their head-scarves over their bosoms…”
In Chapter al-Ahzaab (33): 59, the reason for veiling is given. Allaah states that it makes the believing women known in the society and provides protection for them from possible social harm.
And so, the believing Muslim women would follow the women around Jesus (pbuh) by veiling themselves.
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